Do You Think Ovechkin's Legacy Will Improve over Time | Page 37 | HFBoards - NHL Message Board and Forum for National Hockey League

Do You Think Ovechkin's Legacy Will Improve over Time

No, I wouldn't. The whole "super team" dreamscape is yours alone...

If anything, your "basic facts" nonsense doesn't hold up down the line or up to the top either...it's just all handcrafted to serve Ovechkin and Ovechkin alone.

Since goals are the hardest thing to do or whatever. And Ovechkin's Atlassian efforts, despite his multiple-time first place team around him screwing it all up, of doing the hardest thing ever, more than anyone ever, in the hardest ever era, and whatever other self serving **** gets piled on it...then why is Ovechkin 8th or whatever? How come he isn't #1? Why don't you sell him as the best player of all time? Haha...He meets all the criteria: which is counting goals.
 
Everything I say is supported by data.

It’s you, farkas, and the other Crosby fans that feel the need to disregard basic inconvenient facts (such as all-time player rankings in this particular instance) in order to proliferate your desired history revisions.
Sure and the data says that Crosby produced more in many less games and that Ovi after his 10-11 season was very much more shooter than a playmaker and the stats back it up but then you are going to move the goalposts again.

You are then going to cherry-pick in the last 7 years that he is 47th in assists which is kind of like saying Dave Andreychuk was a great goal scorer because he is 15 in goals like he is an all time great in goal scoring.

It's also pretty clear that the Capitals were fine with the late career in using Ovi for EN situations was based entirely on the goal record and not on sound hockey strategy as his usage in the playoffs when it really matters has become even more sheltered.

The video backs this up offensive zone starts and when the puck goes the other way he is the first guy off probably cheating himself of even more minuses there.

No other former superstar has gotten this kind of preferential treatment and I get it, it was for the record the owner was on record years ago about this but people have eyes and the stats are there.
 
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Everything I say is supported by data.

It’s you, farkas, and the other Crosby fans that feel the need to disregard basic inconvenient facts (such as all-time player rankings in this particular instance) in order to proliferate your desired history revisions.

Whenever you do this, you seem to be implying that you're a paragon of impartiality.

You shouldn't be inviting people to investigate that.
 
So after three years of claiming the caps were sacrificing everything to get Ovechkin the record and getting laughed off the main boards before ducking out as Ovechkin blew passed the record in style, you’re back to making your same refuted claims elsewhere in the hopes of finding a more receptive audience.
 
Whenever you do this, you seem to be implying that you're a paragon of impartiality.

You shouldn't be inviting people to investigate that.

Everyone is hereby invited to investigate my posts and impartiality. I keep my posts public and available for everyone to review. That’s a setting I could change, right? I won’t.

Go for it. I have nothing to hide.

It won’t be flawless and I am perfectly fine with that.
 
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No, I wouldn't. The whole "super team" dreamscape is yours alone...

If anything, your "basic facts" nonsense doesn't hold up down the line or up to the top either...it's just all handcrafted to serve Ovechkin and Ovechkin alone.

Since goals are the hardest thing to do or whatever. And Ovechkin's Atlassian efforts, despite his multiple-time first place team around him screwing it all up, of doing the hardest thing ever, more than anyone ever, in the hardest ever era, and whatever other self serving **** gets piled on it...then why is Ovechkin 8th or whatever? How come he isn't #1? Why don't you sell him as the best player of all time? Haha...He meets all the criteria: which is counting goals.

^^^compared to this misleading gibberish, yes, I am a paragon of impartiality.
 
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Everyone is hereby invited to investigate my posts and impartiality. I keep my posts public and available for everyone to review. That’s a setting I could change, right? I won’t.

Go for it. I have nothing to hide.

It won’t be flawless and I am perfectly fine with that.

I wouldn't have said what I said unless I'd already done that multiple times.
 
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*fewer

And No it doesn’t….unless you assume secondary assists are just as good as goals - which they aren’t.
The DATA was points, how quickly you change your tune to give a narrative.

Everything I say is supported by data.

It’s you, farkas, and the other Crosby fans that feel the need to disregard basic inconvenient facts (such as all-time player rankings in this particular instance) in order to proliferate your desired history revisions.
But I get it if you bring it up its data if someone else does it needs a subjective narrative, okay seen this movie before.
 
It's rich that the guy who keeps attacking people's (posters or reporters) nationality is claiming to be the paragon of impartiality

That is a blatant mischaracterization.

I have never attacked anyone’s nationality.

I do question why people emphasize nationality so prominently into player assessments. I do not see the merit of nationalism or nativism. I am very much turned off by those methods of “othering” people and the results we get from that form of discrimination.
 
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That is a blatant mischaracterization.

I have never attacked anyone’s nationality.

I do question why people emphasize nationality so prominently into player assessments. I do not see the merit of nationalism or nativism. I am very much turned off by those methods of “othering” people and the results we get from that form of discrimination.

I'm sorry; is this opposite day or are you having fun with us?
 
So after three years of claiming the caps were sacrificing everything to get Ovechkin the record and getting laughed off the main boards before ducking out as Ovechkin blew passed the record in style, you’re back to making your same refuted claims elsewhere in the hopes of finding a more receptive audience.
Aren't you watching this years playoffs and read the Ted Lenois quote bad suddenly a guy in past his 30s is the EN go to guy?


Is anyone going to argue that Ovechkin got better defensively after 17-18, the stats certainly don't support that narrative.

Point me to something I said that wasn't true in that quote and I'll bring you facts and stats or are selective about those as well?
 
^^^This is pure demagoguery.

I’ve been perfectly consistent in claiming goals on average are worth more than secondary assists.

Nothing changed.
Yes but I pointed out that you were talking about data, then I brought up data you didn't like and had to go move the goal posts.

Here is the data

Crosby 1352-625-1062-1687 still going and increasing the gap every year.
Ovi 1491-897-726-1623 is under contract next year but he has the record so I can EN situations drying up but its open.

I keep hearing this secondary assist stuff, one would think if they were that easy to get that Ovi might have more?

so lets wrap this up in a nutshell, in 139 less games Crosby has 272 less goals, which is to be expected as many here have Ovi as the best or one of the best goal scorers of all time and Crosby probably isn't a top 10 guy there on many list, few probably.

But he also has in 139 less games 64 more points and that's a significant difference.

Chances are when and if Crosby plays those games in hand he is going to up near 200 points more than Ovi.

This is in part why people rate him as the better all time player, there are other parts like playoff resume, 200 foot game but you have a narrative for all of that as well which doesn't really stand up to constructive scrutiny.

For Ovi it's all about goals, don't look at anything else.
 
I just can’t get over how elegant an obfuscating phrase “he never played with another top 200 player” or “never played with another HOFer” is.

“Top 200” and “HOFer” are both career markers, and the scale of the career is just simply the wrong scale for contemplating the amount of support a guy had. Guys like Backstrom, Kuznetsov, Green, Holtby, Semin, Carlson were all at some point seen as amongst the top in their position in the league. A bunch of those Capitals teams had really solid depth guys: Knuble, Laich, Oshie, Wideman, Eller. All of that is hidden underneath the curtain of “no Top 200 Players” because Kuznetsov, Green, Holtby and Semin had high peaks but short primes, and Backstrom never really got the respect he deserved.

If you were to rank every player in the league, season-by-season, between 07-08 and 18-19 (what I’ll call these teams overlapping contention windows), most seasons the average player ranking between them would be at worst a wash, and I imagine the Caps would come out on top for overall team quality more than the Penguins would.

If someone were to sketch out a full lineup value analysis, season by season, and the above isn’t true? Then that’s fine and I’ll accept it. But you’ll never be able to persuade me that “never played with a HOFer” is meaningful outside of being a trivia answer indicating that Evgeny Kuznetsov stopped liking hockey.
I'm gonna re-up this post because it's many pages back but we've come full circle to this speciously reasoned "never played with a top 100/200/300/1000/100000 player" argument. A career value achievement is not the metric by which to measure player support, which has to be season-to-season to be statistically useful.
 
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...nor researched in any meaningful way.
In fairness to MJ, there's been research showing that secondary assists, on average, are worth less than goals and primary assists. Here's a study I did in 2019.

My best estimate is a secondary assist is worth around 0.66 primary points. There's another study floating around that argues that secondary assists are worth significantly less, but the author didn't do any calculations (it was just based on his qualitative comments on a few graphs).

Crosby has outscored Ovechkin by 64 points over the course of their careers. Ovechkin is ahead 1,342 - 1,279 in primary points, and Crosby is ahead 408 - 281 in secondary assists. Crosby is still ahead if we value secondary assists as 0.65 primary points, but it's much closer (1,548 to 1,527).
 
In fairness to MJ, there's been research showing that secondary assists, on average, are worth less than goals and primary assists. Here's a study I did in 2019.

My best estimate is a secondary assist is worth around 0.66 primary points. There's another study floating around that argues that secondary assists are worth significantly less, but the author didn't do any calculations (it was just based on his qualitative comments on a few graphs).

Crosby has outscored Ovechkin by 64 points over the course of their careers. Ovechkin is ahead 1,342 - 1,279 in primary points, and Crosby is ahead 408 - 281 in secondary assists. Crosby is still ahead if we value secondary assists as 0.65 primary points, but it's much closer (1,548 to 1,527).
That may well be the right answer. I don't know. I do wish the NHL was more careful with handing out assists. That said, I think a study that doesn't take into account changes in team tactics is going to miss some important points...hopefully tracking data captured now will help, if it ever becomes public.

Hanging one's hat - in whole or in part - based on YoY consistency in the era of liberalized free agency and coaching tenures averaging out in the 2ish year range doesn't feel right to me...it could be, and I could be dead wrong because I didn't do the work either, I just watch a lot of hockey haha

I'd predict that secondary assists are very prone to team tactics and structure...
 
I keep hearing this secondary assist stuff, one would think if they were that easy to get that Ovi might have more?
Goal scorers often get less assists, in small part because they can't get secondary assists on their own goals, in bigger because of their role/function. But if we're not going back to hyperbole, Ovechkin does have quite a lot of assists simply from being a productive top line player. Surely nobody with over 700 goals would be treated as though they barely ever got any.
 
Ovechkin does have quite a lot of assists simply from being a productive top line player.
And 1,400 more minutes than any forward on the PP since 2006...

he is 8th in assists on the powerplay since the lock-out, his powerplay assists per minutes average during his career is lower than say Eric Staal or Corey Perry, but with that much volume he is in the top 10.

But when you play 84% of the powerplay, you just need to stay better at it than the second option even when tired to still bring value.
 
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In fairness to MJ, there's been research showing that secondary assists, on average, are worth less than goals and primary assists. Here's a study I did in 2019.

My best estimate is a secondary assist is worth around 0.66 primary points. There's another study floating around that argues that secondary assists are worth significantly less, but the author didn't do any calculations (it was just based on his qualitative comments on a few graphs).

Crosby has outscored Ovechkin by 64 points over the course of their careers. Ovechkin is ahead 1,342 - 1,279 in primary points, and Crosby is ahead 408 - 281 in secondary assists. Crosby is still ahead if we value secondary assists as 0.65 primary points, but it's much closer (1,548 to 1,527).
Hey,

I looked at your calculations and isn’t there an issue here with adding two variables artificially increasing R^2?

“The other thing that's interesting here is the inter-year correlation for total assists is higher than the inter-year correlation for primary assists. This suggests that, even though secondary assists obviously have little predictive value on their own, they seem to have some predictive value when combined with primary assists.”

As you know, R^2 will always increase when you add variables (A1 + A2) even if they have no correlation on their own with the dependent variable. In other words, you could add hits and takeaways and it would may well increase your R^2 past 0.2 without actually being informative.
 
Aren't you watching this years playoffs
The game itself is infrequently mentioned from one side of this debate...probably a couple good theories around that haha

The guy who was out there with an empty net all the time this regular year, so much so that he netted 8 empty net goals (one short of the high mark for anyone in the post-lockout era), suddenly cannot be trusted to play late in close games when the games matter...

Game 2 vs. Carolina, Caps up 2-1, Ovechkin doesn't play the last 5:42. Played 37 seconds of the last 8:28 (!).

Maybe he had way too many dimensions for his coach to comprehend...

Nine of the 11 other forwards took shifts to protect a lead - Eller and sometimes-healthy-scratch Raddysh are the only ones who played less down the stretch.

Game 5 vs. Montreal. Caps up 3-1 trying to close it out, Ovechkin plays 18 seconds of the last 6:05.

Not the case in the regular season.

4/4 vs Chicago. Caps protecting a late lead. Ovechkin's ES ice time goes UP in the 3rd, instead of being reduced/halved. He plays 2:57 of the last 5:27.


Just looking for another random close Caps win that isn't so record-adjacent (because I get it, they want him to get the record - why wouldn't you?), 2/6 at Philly. Caps go ahead 4-3 with 8 to go. Ovechkin plays 3:02 of the last 7:04.

All of a sudden though, the coach can't stomach putting this guy out there for large stretches of the 3rd when it's close...this guy, who we are gaslighted into believing was the best player on the team this year by a long shot: 2024-25 Washington Capitals Regular Season MVP

Except by people who are watching, where he doesn't really rank in any significant way: 2024-25 Washington Capitals Regular Season MVP

This is why it's cut down into "basic facts"...well, not those facts, but the "facts" that stack the deck for the "impartial"...

And look, the evaluation of him is tricky. Goals are hard. He scores goal. He should get rightly due credit for that. I do agree that he's such a power play force that he changes how team's PK against him/them in a way that is historically significant. But the idea that it's just so abundantly clear that this guy holds X value, while everyone else is holding X-Y value just doesn't match what's happening on the ice. And that's where I'm the loudest. When the stats don't match the game play, that's when I get acid reflux haha
 
The O6 is not a sample of the current era because it is not part of the current era.

The definition of a sample:
  • representative part or a single item from a larger whole or group especially when presented for inspection or shown as evidence of quality.
  • a small part or quantity intended to show what the whole is like

To be clear, I am not accusing you of being biased and applaud your efforts for trying to present things statistically. Everyone would love to answer the unanswerable question of how Player X would do if they played in another era given the considerable differences in point totals and PPGs of the players consdered to be GOATS.
I feel like you're jumping back and forth on samples a bit. My contention is simply that a player-season is a player-season, whether it happened in 1924-25 or 2024-25. It seems like I'm promoting single season comparisons, but that's mainly because I'm trying to show that patterns in scoring show up again and again. The considerable differences in point totals and PPGs is mainly due to an increasing number of games played and the seasonal scoring levels. When you acknowledge that league average scoring of 210 in a 70 game season is the same scoring level at 246 in an 82 game season, any point total differences are completely down to the 12 extra games played (plus a good dose of randomness).

Like, look at the Bill Cook season of 29-30 - 29+30=59 points in 44 games, 21.3 G%, 43.4 P%. You have the whole offside rule change helping to double league scoring, they didn't even track even-strength and power play goals, and the Rangers ran 6 forwards and 4 defensemen. Seventy six years later, Vincent Lecavalier puts up 52+56=108 points in 82 games, 21.4 G%, 44.4 P%. It's the exact same season. In 24-25 scoring, Cook's year is 55+57=112, Lecavalier's year is 54+59=113, minor variations easily attributable to randomness. [In 29-30 scoring, Lecavalier's year rounds to 29+31=60, Cook's year rounds to 53+54=107 in 06-07 scoring.]

That's really all I'm doing when I convert seasons. I'm assuming that the Bill Cook that put up a 21.3 G% and 43.4 P% in 29-30 is talented enough to put up a 21.3 G% and 43.4 P% in 06-07, and vice versa for Lecavalier. Because scoring doesn't change, similar seasons from widely disparate eras in the NHL have the same underlying numbers.

That makes sense. But the height of volatility was probably in the first few decades of the NHL's existence. Probably up to around when Maurice Richard entered the league in 1942-43. I would think this would be a volatility of individual spike seasons as well as in terms of league averages.
I think it depends on what you mean by volatility. Does volatility go up in a 24 game or 44 game season? On one hand, smaller sample sizes are subject to more random variation. On the other hand, it is really hard to develop a substantial gap in that few games. Also, because you're not rolling 4 lines and 3 defensive pairs in 1920, and the same players are on ice for 50 minutes of the game, there's no other players to have that randomness occur to, so the same players were getting points no matter what.

Another way to measure volatility is the gap between VsX and Average VsX for a season, and whether it is above or below (or equal). If that number is above 1, that means VsX was set too low for the scoring level, if it is below 1, that means VsX was set too high for the scoring level, and I considered 1.00/1.01/0.99 as correct for the scoring level.

In the first 25 years of the NHL, it was above 1 22 times, and below 1 3 times. VsX was correct twice, within 5% 7 times, within 10% 13 times, within 20% 18 times, and was above 20% the other 7 seasons, peaking at 29% off in 40-41, where VsX was set at 44, but should have been 56.55 (league average was 129 in a 48 game season - compare that to 12-13 where league average was 127 in a 48 game season, and VsX was 57 - should have been 55.67).

The second 25 years of the NHL covers the O6 era prior to expansion from 42-43 to 66-67. The only time it was below 1 was the artificially set season of 43-44, and it was only within 5% twice. It was within 10% 11 times, 20% 15 times, and actually above 30% 3 times - 46-47 VsX of 63, should've been 83.29, 48-49 VsX 54, should've been 71.45, 66-67 VsX 70, should've been 91.61.

The next section is the 12 years post-expansion prior to the WHA merger. It was 9-3 in favor of being higher than 1. Also, VsX was correct twice, within 5% 3 times total, within 10% 8 times, and never above 20%, though it did peak at that in 73-74 (VsX set at 91, should've been 109.15).

Beyond that, you have the 25 years between the WHA merger and the 04-05 lockout. It was all the way down to 14-11 in terms of being above or below 1, though you had 1 season at 1.01, 2 at 1.00 and 3 at 0.99, so it is more like 11-8-6. Along with those 6 correct seasons, you had 15 total years within 5%, and 22 years within 10%, with the outliers being 83-84 at 14% (VsX of 121, should've been 138.52), 86-87 at 19% (VsX of 108, should've been 128.88), and 98-99 at 12% (VsX of 107, should've been 94.68).

Finally, you have the 20 years post-lockout. We've had 8 years above 1, and 12 below, though we have 3 exact years, 1 at 1.00 and 2 at 0.99, so 7-10-3 as a final tally. To go with those exact years, we have 8 total within 5%, and 19 of the 20 within 10%, with the peak year being 11% in 14-15 (VsX of 86, should've been 95.56).

The entire premise behind Average VsX is that the 05-06 through 18-19 seasons is a representative sample of scoring talent. I've toyed with adding more seasons, but I'm afraid it would be a bunch of work for less accuracy.

I don't know if that was a great exploration of volatility, but it was an explanation. Basically, I'd agree with you that volatility has decreased with time, but that the limited rosters and fewer games played mitigated it to an extent in the earliest years of the NHL. The O6 era lost the limited rosters and added more games, plus you had the disruption of WW2. The expansion era generated volatility from the gap between the haves and have-nots, and the lack of parity. The results after the WHA merger show that 20 teams and 80 games pretty much mitigates volatility, and 30 teams even more so.
 

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