Do You Think Ovechkin's Legacy Will Improve over Time

Leave top 10 out of it. Do you agree two statements on Ovechkin’s legacy: 1) he was an all time goal scorer who was pretty good/solid at generating assists and 2) he was an all time goal scorer but was abysmal at generating assists… are two wildly different statements about one’s “legacy”. The notion that I’m supposed to infer the second if you say the first is a bit ridiculous.
No, I don't agree- I think it should be pretty clear that Ovechkin's legacy is being compared to the best of all time, not the average NHLer. Like, no shit Ovechkin could pass a puck better than Frank Vatrano. I really struggle to see how it could be taken another way.

But, from now on- whenever I am talking about Ovechkin- I will qualify exactly what category of player I am talking about (and spoiler- it is almost always going to be in a discussion surrounding the best players of all time).
 
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No, I don't agree- I think it should be pretty clear that Ovechkin's legacy is being compared to the best of all time, not the average NHLer. Like, no shit Ovechkin could pass a puck better than Frank Vatrano. I really struggle to see how it could be taken another way.

But, from now on- whenever I am talking about Ovechkin- I will qualify exactly what category of player I am talking about (and spoiler- it is almost always going to be in a discussion surrounding the best players of all time).
You keep saying it’s obvious but you’ve moved the goal posts so far that they’re on the other side of the field.

Yes, when talking about Ovechkin or any other player, say what you mean instead of talking in hyperbole and leaving everyone to “assume” what you’re “obviously” saying and we will have wasted a lot less time here.
 
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I'd say it's one of many useful facts.
Speaking of facts here are 2 players over their careers and how they rank.

Regular Season

Player A 2nd in goals, 1st in assists, 1st in points and 7th in (+/-).
Player B 1st in gaols , 10th in assists, 2nd in points and 162nd in (+/-)

Playoffs

Player A 3rd in goals, 1st in assists, 1st in points and 47th in (+/-).

Player B 1st in goals, 19th in assists, 4th in points and tied for 188th in (+/-) along with 35ish+ players.

Since you are all about facts today eh?
 
Because that’s not how discussion happens. Legacy goes far deeper than a discussion about the top 10 all time. Right?
For a player who is in the conversation for top 10 all time, why would it? Again, unless you want to read pages and pages of talking about how Alex Ovechkin passed the puck better than Alex Killorn, Boone Jenner, Martin Pospisil, etc (and I don't see how that brings any value to a history of hockey discussion), then why wouldn't we compare Ovechkin's legacy to the other all time greats?
I straight up don’t believe you that if someone posted a thread about Patrick Marleau your first thought would be to post that he was abysmal.
For starters- my first thought here in this thread wasn't that Ovechkin was abysmal at producing assists. Here is what I believe is my first post from this conversation.

And, yeah, if we were discussing Marleau as a top ten candidate, I'd definitely be saying he is an abysmal goalscorer. And playmaker.

It would be unproductive at best and bad faith at worst.
Only if you choose to see it that way.
 
Also, there are issues with the adjusted points formula. I can't find it at the moment, but I believe @Hockey Outsider or @overpass (or one of those other posters much more comfortable speaking numbers than I am) has gone into it in the past.
I'd have to dig up the posts where I dive into the details, but hockey-reference.com's adjusted points are flawed because they're obviously favourable to certain eras (late 1920's to early 1930's) and obviously unfavourable to other eras (most of the Original Six era, and to a lesser extent, the 1980's).

That being said, even under VsX, Ovechkin ranks pretty much the same. After the just-completed 2024-25 season, he's 5th all-time (behind only Howe, Gretzky, Jagr and Crosby). That's exactly where HR.com has him. I think it's fair to say that Ovechkin is somewhere in the top ten all-time in terms of offensive career value.
 
You keep saying it’s obvious but you’ve moved the goal posts so far that they’re on the other side of the field.
The goal posts haven't moved- you just needed more explanation to understand where they were.

Yes, when talking about Ovechkin or any other player, say what you mean instead of talking in hyperbole and leaving everyone to “assume” what you’re “obviously” saying and we will have wasted a lot less time here.
Honestly, you seem to be the only one hung up on this one.
 
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His assist finishes are 6, 6, 10. That's not particularly good for a top-10 of all time candidate. Shoot, Jason Spezza has finishes of 2, 7, 9. Are we ready to crown him as a great set up guy (on a historically great level, since I have to say this now)?
If you’re comparing him to top 10, 20 players of all time then no he’s not an all time great playmaker. Per game assist numbers and top 10 finishes are more valuable than raw totals over the course of the career. They paint a better picture of actual playmaking ability. Overall, Ovechkin is far from one dimensional.
 
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His assist finishes are 6, 6, 10. That's not particularly good for a top-10 of all time candidate. Shoot, Jason Spezza has finishes of 2, 7, 9. Are we ready to crown him as a great set up guy (on a historically great level, since I have to say this now)?

If I gave you these 2 separate lists of assist finishes:

Player APlayer BPlayer APlayer B
Assist RankAssist RankAssist RankAssist Rank
2569
25611
361015
462026
562932
6113542
9123952
22155158
23166767
24176867
26187175
282011377
283011599
3130120106
5542121129

You've got 5 options - Player A clearly better playmaker than Player B, Player A marginally better playmaker than Player B, Player A and Player B about the same as playmakers, Player B marginally better than Player A, Player B clearly better than Player A.

The first set of Assist Ranks is Bobby Hull's actual assist ranks during his NHL career, along with Alex Ovechkin's transposed assist ranks into those same seasons. The second set of assist ranks is Alex Ovechkin's actual assist ranks during his NHL career, along with Bobby Hull's transposed assist ranks in those same seasons. Player A is Ovechkin, Player B is Hull.

Looking at those finishes, my conclusion is about the same, leaning towards Ovechkin marginally better. That's the fairest description of Ovechkin as a playmaker. Nobody thinks of Ovechkin as a playmaker first, but his primary assist production is above average for a winger. His secondary assists per game is basically in line with every other goalscoring winger as well (Ovechkin's at 0.19 per game) - Howe at 0.17, Brett Hull at 0.21, Teemu Selanne at 0.19, Bobby Hull at 0.18, Mike Bossy at 0.24, Maurice Richard at 0.16, Ilya Kovalchuk at 0.17, Pavel Bure at 0.23, Bossy's actually a fun one, because his assists per game were affected by how high scoring his era was. If you transpose Bossy's seasons into the post-lockout years of 05-06 through 14-15, he has 397 assists in that timeframe, compared to Ovechkin's 420 assists. Nobody gives Mike Bossy demerits for his playmaking, and yet over his career Ovechkin would have put up more assists, if they played at the same time.


There's another point about Ovechkin's assists I want to make. Nobody who watches the Washington power play comes away thinking that Ovechkin is unimportant to it working. He plays 95% of every power play, and his gravity creates space for every other player out there. Despite that, over his career, Ovechkin's IPP% on the power play is just under 60%, which is way lower than almost every star forward. I averaged the top 50ish forwards in power play points since the lockout, and their combined IPP% was just over 65%, and superstar forwards are around 70%. Part of that is by the design of the power play, as the other two one-time options are not drawn up to come from Ovechkin, but the PK's concentration on denying Ovechkin shots creates those lanes for the other options. If you were to increase Ovechkin's IPP% to 65 or 70%, to more fully represent his power play contributions, that's an extra 3-5 assists per year.

In conclusion, I think Ovechkin as a playmaker suffers from two issues. First, he is a winger generally being compared to centers, and thus he starts at a disadvantage positionally. When you compare him to his winger peers, he has put up broadly the same assist numbers as them, both primary and secondary. Second, he generally played in a lower-scoring era, and had three shortened seasons, and thus his raw number is on the lower bound of his career expectation.
 
If I gave you these 2 separate lists of assist finishes:

Player APlayer BPlayer APlayer B
Assist RankAssist RankAssist RankAssist Rank
2569
25611
361015
462026
562932
6113542
9123952
22155158
23166767
24176867
26187175
282011377
283011599
3130120106
5542121129

You've got 5 options - Player A clearly better playmaker than Player B, Player A marginally better playmaker than Player B, Player A and Player B about the same as playmakers, Player B marginally better than Player A, Player B clearly better than Player A.

The first set of Assist Ranks is Bobby Hull's actual assist ranks during his NHL career, along with Alex Ovechkin's transposed assist ranks into those same seasons. The second set of assist ranks is Alex Ovechkin's actual assist ranks during his NHL career, along with Bobby Hull's transposed assist ranks in those same seasons. Player A is Ovechkin, Player B is Hull.

How do two 2nd place finishes for Hull "transpose" into a 9th and an 11th?
 
Hull vs. Ovechkin is perhaps the closest comparison you can make within the Top 20 players with their overwhelming goal totals and shot totals, and a tinge of unfulfilled potential on the team success front.

Hull generally gets credit for more consistency as being a top point producer than Ovechkin rhroughout their proimes and he was also the more consistent playoff performer. Ovechkin did not have a Mikita on his team that can be argued as a positive or a negative.

The quality of their actual playmaking, not just creating offensive chances from taking so many shots, would, IMO, be farther down the list of metrics.
 
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Who cares? His three Harts and 9 Richards more than compensate for that.
"I like chocolate, vanilla, and strawberry ice cream basically the same...and I sort of get sick of having one flavor over and over again...so I buy Neapolitan more often than not."

You: "I read you loud and clear, so I got you an industrial size tub of strawberry ice cream...what's the difference?"
 
"I like chocolate, vanilla, and strawberry ice cream basically the same...and I sort of get sick of having one flavor over and over again...so I buy Neapolitan more often than not."

You: "I read you loud and clear, so I got you an industrial size tub of strawberry ice cream...what's the difference?"
Someone is clearly preferring personal tastes IN ICE CREAM over objective accomplishements.
 
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Someone is clearly preferring personal tastes IN ICE CREAM over objective accomplishements.
Marleau has more points than Fedorov...objectively.

You just listed Maurice Richard as a top 10 player ever or whatever. He has 1 Hart and never led the league in points. His "objective rate" seems slightly off compared to others, no?
 
How do two 2nd place finishes for Hull "transpose" into a 9th and an 11th?
You're crossing the streams on the players. The 2nd places are Ovechkin's ranks in the O6, the 9th and 11th is Hull's ranks post-lockout.


YearAssistsRankYearAssistsRank
59-6042507-084632
63-6444611-124911
65-6643513-144415
68-6949616-17489
70-7152618-195226

The left side is Hull's original assists and finishes, the right side is the year they correspond to and the adjusted assists and finishes. You'll notice by happenstance both 70-71 and 18-19 featured league average scoring of 244, so there's actually no conversion or adjusting going on that year. Hull's 52 assists would have been tied for 26th that year. Ovechkin had 38 assists in 18-19, which was tied for 71st. If you moved that to 70-71, he would have finished tied for 22nd. Also, Chicago scored 277 goals, and Washington scored 274 goals, so it is to be expected that their players scored about the same.

Hull's actual league average for those 5 years was 206, 194, 213, 227 and 244, but those were mostly in 70 game seasons. In an 82 game season, those league averages would be 241, 227, 250, 245 and 257, and we have multiple seasons post-lockout in those ranges. That's why his assist numbers really don't change, there's not much adjusting to do. If you summed up his initial Chicago tenure, he had 604 goals and 549 assists for 1153 points, on 3381 Chicago goals. Adjusted, that would be 617 goals and 568 assists for 1185 points on 3483 goals. That's really not that big of a difference over 15 years. [Ovechkin had 706 goals and 572 assists for 1278 points, on 3603 goals over that 05-06 to 19-20 time period.]
 
You're crossing the streams on the players. The 2nd places are Ovechkin's ranks in the O6, the 9th and 11th is Hull's ranks post-lockout.


YearAssistsRankYearAssistsRank
59-6042507-084632
63-6444611-124911
65-6643513-144415
68-6949616-17489
70-7152618-195226

The left side is Hull's original assists and finishes, the right side is the year they correspond to and the adjusted assists and finishes. You'll notice by happenstance both 70-71 and 18-19 featured league average scoring of 244, so there's actually no conversion or adjusting going on that year. Hull's 52 assists would have been tied for 26th that year. Ovechkin had 38 assists in 18-19, which was tied for 71st. If you moved that to 70-71, he would have finished tied for 22nd. Also, Chicago scored 277 goals, and Washington scored 274 goals, so it is to be expected that their players scored about the same.

Hull's actual league average for those 5 years was 206, 194, 213, 227 and 244, but those were mostly in 70 game seasons. In an 82 game season, those league averages would be 241, 227, 250, 245 and 257, and we have multiple seasons post-lockout in those ranges. That's why his assist numbers really don't change, there's not much adjusting to do. If you summed up his initial Chicago tenure, he had 604 goals and 549 assists for 1153 points, on 3381 Chicago goals. Adjusted, that would be 617 goals and 568 assists for 1185 points on 3483 goals. That's really not that big of a difference over 15 years. [Ovechkin had 706 goals and 572 assists for 1278 points, on 3603 goals over that 05-06 to 19-20 time period.]
Forgive me if I am understanding this incorrectly, but using adjusted assists- Hull's 5th place finish in 59-60 would correspond to a 32nd place finish in 07-08? A fifth place finish in 59-60 is worse than Jason Pominville's 2007-08 season? Pierre-Marc Bouchard's? Derek Roy's?

I feel like we need to be questioning that methodology, if that is the case.
 
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The OP is
Forgive me if I am understanding this incorrectly, but using adjusted assists- Hull's 5th place finish in 59-60 would correspond to a 32nd place finish in 07-08? A fifth place finish in 59-60 is worse than Jason Pominville's 2007-08 season? Pierre-Marc Bouchard's? Derek Roy's?

I feel like we need to be questioning that methodology, if that is the case.

Adjusted stats using league GPG are pretty much rejected by the majority in the HOH.

The OP can be drilled down to two questions:

Will he be remembered as being the greater player than Crosby as time goes on despite a majority of current poeple placing Crosby ahead of him?

Has his "Gordie Howe-like" longevity on the goalscromng front moved him ahead of his historical comparable - Bobby Hull; who was #5 in the last HOH all-player ranking?

If the answer is Yes to the latter, does that mean he is #5/#6 all-time? I think a Ovechkin vs. Hull thread is needed to really drill down on this topic.
 
The exact implications of what an expanding league means for things like stat rankings are going to be difficult to pin down precisely.

With more opportunity, there is a lot more chances for a "fluke" great season coming from somewhere in the league and more opportunity for late breakout. But at same time, if the league had 64 teams next year, it certainly wouldn't feel like the 40th best guy is the equivalent of the 20th best guy a year earlier. After all, the 40 best guys were all still in the league either way.

Someone like Bill White didn't make the NHL coming out of Junior in the Original Six. He played seven years of minor pro. Then one day, the league doubled overnight, and he received an NHL job, and he makes the NHL in an expanded league when he is 28. Fast forward, a few years later and he's making Team Canada for the '72 Summit Series and finishing 3rd place in the Norris Trophy voting for three straight years in the 70s.

Then going the other way, if league stayed at 6 teams forever, anyone who wasn't like a Top 30 pick in the modern NHL probably never gets much of a shot to begin with, and even amongst them, fewer players have the sort of opportunity to be say, top 5, top 10 in a major stat category because they never got the ice time to make that happen. If we're super confident that the NHL will be ultra-efficient when it comes to roster/lineup decisions on an annualized basis, this matters less, but of course this doesn't really happen. The Golden Knights "misfits" being a very in your face example of what a bunch of players with expanded opportunity can do.
 
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The Golden Knights "misfits" being a very in your face example of what a bunch of players with expanded opportunity can do.
And increasing rolling dice for a fluke/peak for Karlsson 43 goals season, without that expansion chance are good Malkin/Staal has one more top 3 goal finish, McDavid a top 5, etc...

Martin St-Louis was already a great example of that, if the league was kept a 6 team league, does he ever get a shot ? if he do, is he ever put in a top 6 type of scenario to shine or tried on the 3-4 th line in some rotation a couple of years and then down in the minor league forever ? He barely got his shot in the 30 team version of the league... undrafted, at 25 he was still getting less minutes than Matthew Barnaby, Clymer or wayne primeau on the lightings power play...

He had 2 Ross and a Hart in the expended league, chance are good they are for grab if the league stay a 12 team league....

You'll notice by happenstance both 70-71 and 18-19 featured league average scoring of 244, so there's actually no conversion or adjusting going on that year.
If i understand the methodology, I am really unsure it can work, in 70-71 for the top 100 nhl forward with the most points, they had in average 1.31 assists per goals, it was 1.45 in 18-19, the numbers of assists awarded per goals in the nhl went up (video replay I imagine, helping tracking them).

We cannot use goal per game to adjust assists over time like that, assists versus their peers is maybe more the way to go or adjust using fowards assists per games instead of goal per games ? Early 06 the league was what around 1.44 assists per goals if we include defenseman to a stable ~1.7 in modern video era.
 
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Marleau has more points than Fedorov...objectively.

You just listed Maurice Richard as a top 10 player ever or whatever. He has 1 Hart and never led the league in points. His "objective rate" seems slightly off compared to others, no?
I did not list Richard as a Top 10 player! I flat out said he did not belong!

Reading comprehension is not your forte, is it? SMH...
 
I did not list Richard as a Top 10 player! I flat out said he did not belong!

Reading comprehension is not your forte, is it? SMH...
I see. That wasn't clear, but fine, my bad.

Though to be fair...

You took the liberty of creating a thread stating your greatest players of all time: 30 Greatest Hockey Players according to Sentinel

Richard wasn't exactly borderline there at 7th.

You voted him 7th/8th just a few years ago. Voting Record - Sentinel, Hockey Outsider, ChiTownPhilly

Tastes change, but your reasoning is very unclear and selectively applied without clear explanation. Thus...confusion.
 
Considering how much winning and leading everyone in goal scoring in the playoff until around mid-career Bossy 45 years after Richard started to play, I am not sure if he is really a good case of lacking objective accomplishments.

Except if we consider bunch of Art Ross > leading the playoff in goals while winning 10 cups. According to the league/fans/rules of the game, the accomplishment was winning the cup at the end of the year, and no one outside his little brother objectively ever did it more.
 

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