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Do You Think Ovechkin's Legacy Will Improve over Time

jigglysquishy said:
How I wish there was more newspaper coverage of Fetisov.

Canada Cup has weak game detail coverage. But Fetisov is a mega star in the stuff that exists. Shame I can't find any league coverage in newspapers
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I wish we had film of Soviet League games...

I used to have whole bound volumes of Pravda (The Soviet newspaper of record), I think they were before Fetisov's time, but I can't be sure any more...but it would have been sweet to go day by day through a Soviet League season (if they had a thorough sports section that is)...
 
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Randyne said:
Malkin is not in top100 per NHL
www.nhl.com

100 Greatest NHL Players of All Time | NHL.com

League announced remaining 67 legends at gala event in Los Angeles
www.nhl.com www.nhl.com
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We didn't make the NHL's Top 100 list...nor do we vote on the Hart or any of the other hurdles you're randomly throwing at our feet to distract from the conversation that was being had several pages ago now haha
 
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Michael Farkas said:
We didn't make the NHL's Top 100 list...nor do we vote on the Hart or any of the other hurdles you're randomly throwing at our feet to distract from the conversation that was being had several pages ago now haha
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Those people who play the nationality card did.
 
Randyne said:
Malkin is not in top100 per NHL
www.nhl.com

100 Greatest NHL Players of All Time | NHL.com

League announced remaining 67 legends at gala event in Los Angeles
www.nhl.com www.nhl.com
Click to expand...
And almost everyone in this section would disagree and that was from January 2017 right?

I mean one can break it down but he had his 3 Big seasons by then along with 5ish good seasons with injuries and a very good playoff resume but the 17 playoffs weren't in consideration yet.

That being said you are putting too much effort into a single poll here.

Also can you provide your direct link for the Ovi/Backstrom stuff I'm too lazy to input it.
 
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Randyne said:
1 fewer than Sid
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Sure but this is how Malkin stacked up in his first 10 seasons.

4th in regular season scoring and second in the playoffs.

And it's still only 10 years compared to many players entire careers right?

Like I said though most people here, including me would have had him in the top 100 of all time by then so you are really relying way too heavily on one poll.

Also let's see that link and some kind of breakdown not just aggregate numbers with no junace.

It's not like Backstrom was some sort of defensive liability compared to Ovi right?
 
Michael Farkas said:
I'm not them, so I can't speak for them. So, sure...
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Read the thread it was reply to a poster who said it's cringe when people play the nationality card.
I said that voters play the nationality card, not posters on HF. Sure HF posters play that card too, but they have no power.
Entire media plays the nationality card. If Ovechkin was a Canadian with Malkin teammate, Sid would be just a good star, at max he would be on Thornton tier.
 
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Backstrom had a higher proportion of career points on powerplay as well, 40.8 % compared to 37.2 %.

Is Backstrom considered Swedish national team legend? Not sure, never made world championship all star team like Ovechkin did twice. Ovechkin was olympic all star team in 2006 as well. Can't remember if Backstrom was allowed to keep the Olympic silver medal since he got kicked out of the championship game for testing positive for something.

For a regular NHL team Backstrom was fine enough as a 2nd best guy on the team but he lags behind most of the top [x] player's second best teammate pretty considerably.
 
Randyne said:
naturalstattrick.com PO 2008-2022 5v5
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After 2018 has been rough a little bit, while Fedorov defensive number are impressive and Kunznetsov offensive number were really good, in between those 2 Ovechkin had better numbers with than without Backstrom


After that his number tended to be better with Backstrom than without:

2010-2012:

GF with...: 57.%
GF without: 37.50%

2013-2015
GF with...: 47.37.%
GF without: 0%

2016-2018
GF with...: 56.52.%
GF without: 69.57% (75% with Kuznetsov, 51.72% without Ku, 33% without both)
 
The 2010 Hart trophy seems to be good evidence that the media didn't give Crosby preferential treatment (due to his nationality, or any other reason). Both players had essentially the same output (50 goals & 109 points for Ovechkin, 51 goals & 109 for Crosby). If there was a pro-Crosby bias, you'd think that this would have been reflected in the results, during such a close race. Instead, Ovechkin finished higher in voting (he appeared on more ballots in total, and trounced Crosby 40-20 in first place votes). Granted, Ovechkin didn't win the Hart, but he was runner-up to another European player (Sedin) - which, again, is hardly what we'd expect to see if Crosby got a boost for being Canadian.
 
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MadLuke said:
After 2018 has been rough a little bit, while Fedorov defensive number are impressive and Kunznetsov offensive number were really good, in between those 2 Ovechkin had better numbers with than without Backstrom


After that his number tended to be better with Backstrom than without:

2010-2012:

GF with...: 57.%
GF without: 37.50%

2013-2015
GF with...: 47.37.%
GF without: 0%

2016-2018
GF with...: 56.52.%
GF without: 69.57% (75% with Kuznetsov, 51.72% without Ku, 33% without both)
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Total GF/GA in the PO 5v5
AO with NB 57/48
NB w/o AO 37/36
AO w/o NB 56/40
N.Backstrom (w/o A.Ovechkin) has only one goal differential in his career (PO 5v5).
 
Hockey Outsider said:
The 2010 Hart trophy seems to be good evidence that the media didn't give Crosby preferential treatment (due to his nationality, or any other reason). Both players had essentially the same output (50 goals & 109 points for Ovechkin, 51 goals & 109 for Crosby). If there was a pro-Crosby bias, you'd think that this would have been reflected in the results, during such a close race. Instead, Ovechkin finished higher in voting (he appeared on more ballots in total, and trounced Crosby 40-20 in first place votes). Granted, Ovechkin didn't win the Hart, but he was runner-up to another European player (Sedin) - which, again, is hardly what we'd expect to see if Crosby got a boost for being Canadian.
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Sid shouldn't be even in top3.
He had only 12 points in 15 games w/o Malkin that season=0.8 PPG (and 1.47 with Malkin)
If voters gave him Hart it would be disaster for their creditability.
Malkin missed 15 games that year; here is Sid production w/o him:

1746233525140.png


Entire Sid's 2009/10 season projection without Malkin:
16 G / 66 P / -27
That 3rd place by Hart votes is extremely generous. He is a Canadian golden boy.

Entire Sid's 2009/10 season projection with healthy Malkin:
60 G / 120 P / +19
1.8 times more points and 3.8 times more goals.
I remember zillion posts from his fans, that Sid could easily score more goals if he wanted to.
 
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Randyne said:
Sid shouldn't be even in top3.
He had only 12 points in 15 games w/o Malkin that season=0.8 PPG (and 1.47 with Malkin)
If voters gave him Hart it would be disaster for their creditability.
Malkin missed 15 games that year; here is Sid production w/o him:

View attachment 1028434

Entire Sid's 2009/10 season projection without Malkin:
16 G / 66 P / -27
That 3rd place by Hart votes is extremely generous. He is a Canadian golden boy.

Entire Sid's 2009/10 season projection with healthy Malkin:
60 G / 120 P / +19
1.8 times more points and 3.8 times more goals.
I remember zillion posts from his fans, that Sid could easily score more goals if he wanted to.
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Are you really projecting a 15 game sample over 82 games? C’mon bro…

That’s worse than when people project his 22 game season over 82.
 
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Victorias said:
Are you really projecting a 15 game sample over 82 games? C’mon bro…
That’s worse than when people project his 22 game season over 82.
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Just to emphasize Malkin's influence. But yeah, I think Sid would score a bit more than that, at max ~30G/90P w/o Malkin. In season with 22 games Malkin helped too (factored in 14 points out of 37 =37.8%)

Sidfans also like to remind his rookie year when he supposedly achieved everything by himself. They forgot that he had 2 HOFers that year (Mark Recchi and Mario Lemieux), who factored in 27 points =26%.

Here is the table with Sid points and HOFers factored in points (I hope Malkin will be a HOFer):
1746236466801.png

Sid had enormous help in 8 seasons (from 26 to 64%).
If he wasn't Canadian golden boy media would scream about that help.
Thornton tier.
 
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Randyne said:
Just to emphasize Malkin's influence. But yeah, I think Sid would score a bit more than that, at max ~30G/90P w/o Malkin. In season with 22 games Malkin helped too (factored in 14 points out of 37 =37.8%)

Sidfans also like to remind his rookie year when he supposedly achieved everything by himself. They forgot that he had 2 HOFers that year (Mark Recchi and Mario Lemieux), who factored in 27 points =26%.

Here is the table with Sid points and HOFers factored in points (I hope Malkin will be a HOFer):
View attachment 1028489
Sid had enormous help in 8 seasons (from 26 to 64%).
If he wasn't Canadian golden boy media would scream about that help.
Thornton tier.
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In 05-06, Recchi was 37 and Mario was 40. In 06-07 Recchi was obviously 38.

I don’t remember too much hockey from back then, but I do know Recchi wasn’t carrying Sid.

I do think Malkin doesn’t get enough credit for the Pens’ success, obviously should have been in the NHL’s top 100, and will be a 1st ballot HOF.

However, I think you are just throwing these numbers out there with the hope that no one will look closer in order to trash Sid and make a completely tangential argument about anti-Russian bias.
 
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jigglysquishy said:
How I wish there was more newspaper coverage of Fetisov.

Canada Cup has weak game detail coverage. But Fetisov is a mega star in the stuff that exists. Shame I can't find any league coverage in newspapers
Click to expand...

Fetisov is arguably the best European player ever
 
Victorias said:
In 05-06, Recchi was 37 and Mario was 40. In 06-07 Recchi was obviously 38.
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05/06 Mario factored in only 8 points. Recchi 20 (one point overlapped so total is 27).
06/07 Recchi factored in 44 points, Malkin 38 (5 points overlapped so total is 77).
Look at Ovechkin stats. He is 39, but still is the best on his team by PPG/GPG.
Victorias said:
However, I think you are just throwing these numbers out there with the hope that no one will look closer in order to trash Sid
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It was reply to a sad poster dreaming about Sid's Hart in 2010.
You can check the numbers.
Sid is not a trash. Being on Thornton tier is a huge accomplishment (adjusted he is #8 by points all-time).
 
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