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Do You Think Ovechkin's Legacy Will Improve over Time

WarriorofTime said:
So he didn’t age as well as Ovechkin it happens, are you inferring he could have if he just felt like it
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Hull did age well go back and have a closer look.

To your last sentence it's pretty obvious that Ovi's usage in the last several years has been disproportionate to his actual skillset and was for the goals record, had Hull been told just go out there and score at will and we will give you elite PP TOI and usage sure he probably would have scored more as he was a really good player aged 37-39.

Ovi's usage in the last 3 years has been unique to say the least.

Detroit wasn't going to play anyone an insane amount of TOI and spread their PP TOI around alot.

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wetcoast said:
Hull did age well go back and have a closer look.

Detroit wasn't going to play anyone an insane amount of TOI and spread their PP TOI around alot.

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Yeah second on own team in powerplay goals. It is what it is. Pre-cap, could jump on team with like 10 hall of famers and pick up another cup ring in post prime.

If you want to rank Brett Hull ahead of Ovechkin you do you.
 
wetcoast said:
Not really sure what this shows exactly as lots of those guys either played in less games, Bobby Hull, Richard and Bossy come to mind or where never considered top players more like compilers like Ciccarelly, Gartner, Niewendyk.

Brett Hull also had a total of 11-9-20 in the ENP section during his career and arguably was a better defensive player than Ovi but he finishes his career on a strong well balanced Detroit team, if he had just sent for goals as he aged his totals no doubt could have been quite a bit higher one would think.

That's all part of the evaluation of comparing all time players taking everything into context.





He is 56th overall and assuming that he isn't back next year McDavid will pass him as he is only 5 assists behind.

Kuch and Mack probably early in 26-27

His playmaking keeps him out of the top 10 for me or put another way when comparing total impact and all of the highs and lows every player bring to his resume Ovi is outside of the top 10 for me.
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You can put Ovi outside of the top 10,000. It won't change anything in real world.

He's the greatest salesman of the game of hockey in the 21st century
 
wetcoast said:
Why would you even go there no one is doing this except you here.

I think Crosby and McDavid are better salesman and it's a hard hill for Ovi to be considered as such because you know.
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Simple:
People that don't follow hockey have now heard about Ovechkin and his record.

But they have no clue who Crosby and MacDavid are. Unless they live in Canada or Pittsburgh.
 
Gerulaitis said:
Simple:
People that don't follow hockey have now heard about Ovechkin and his record.

But they have no clue who Crosby and MacDavid are. Unless they live in Canada or Pittsburgh.
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If people don't know about Crosby or McDavid then they aren't hockey people.

Who cares if non hockey people have heard about Ovechkin they will simply forget it as they aren't hockey people right?
 
MeHateHe said:
Now that I think of it, I don't care what the hardest thing to do is. I mean, a lacrosse goal is objectively harder than a tip in, does that make it more worthwhile? Balancing a puck on your nose (unless you're Tim Hunter) would be harder still. Should we induct Harpo the Seal to the Hockey Hall of Fame?

We've got people in this subforum, which is generally populated by a good cross-section of hockey-history-knowers, arguing that because a guy scored the most goals, and because goals are the only thing that matters, then that guy is somehow better than nearly everyone else who played the game.

That's a facile argument, because as Herm Edwards has said billion times on sports clip shows, you play to win the game. Hello?

So, you have the guy with the all-time goalscoring record. Is he one of the greatest players of all time? Of course. But that stat cannot be used on its own as some obejctive measure of the player's worth or, in this case, legacy.

Again, there are folks on this subforum with better historical knowledge than I have who can talk to the overall legacy. I'm mostly objecting to the notion that because a guy scored goals and goals are what's on the scoreboard, that's the only thing we look at.
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Ovechkin is 5th all-time in adjusted points.

He's one of the most physical players of all time. The Capitals have won playoff series in large part due to physicality.

If anyone is saying goals alone are the case for Ovie, then they are either 1) Extremely bad at evaluating hockey players; or 2) Not making a good faith argument.
 
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wetcoast said:
If people don't know about Crosby or McDavid then they aren't hockey people.

Who cares if non hockey people have heard about Ovechkin they will simply forget it as they aren't hockey people right?
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That's what makes Ovechkin the best salesman of hockey.

Gretzky and he are the only brands that non-hockey consumers recognize.
 
Gerulaitis said:
Both
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Google says nope.

7th here behind Sid go figure.

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The Best NHL Players of All Time

Who are the all time top hockey players in the NHL that have dazzled fans and dominated the ice? The NHL has seen its fair share of incredible talent, with players whose skills, dedication, and achievements have cemented their places in hockey history. These legends have left a lasting impact on...
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wetcoast said:
Google says nope.

7th here behind Sid go figure.

www.ranker.com

The Best NHL Players of All Time

Who are the all time top hockey players in the NHL that have dazzled fans and dominated the ice? The NHL has seen its fair share of incredible talent, with players whose skills, dedication, and achievements have cemented their places in hockey history. These legends have left a lasting impact on...
www.ranker.com www.ranker.com
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I saw it - Google says: fans.
Non-hockey people say something else.
 
wetcoast said:
If you look at the ranker lists these people are for the most part non hockey fans.

either way you assertion isn't provable and not very meaningful in any case.
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Filter the ranker. Mostly the US based voters. The outside US voters picked Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr - you can tell they're Canadians.

And I can tell you for free - if a "non-hockey" European is not from Czechia, Scandinavia or Russia, he's likely think that Mario Lemieux is a name of a fashion designer or a video game character
 
Legacy can be influenced by marketing, I imagine (Jordan is a billion dollar active business with many employees), but legacy among actual hockey fans, pundit, ex and current hockey people in the business, etc... is more what we tend to have in mind
 
Gerulaitis said:
Goals >>>> Assists.

Goals can be scored without an assist.

Assists can't exist without goals.
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There really are no good or standout examples of a great goal scorer making a good playmaker a great playmaker though, as there are with a great playmaker making a good but not great goal scorer a threat to win the goalscoring crown. You had Forsberg and Thornton propelling good but not great goal scorers like Cheechoo and Gagné into fighting for the goalscoring title, for instance, which they wouldn't have done without that support.

If assists are so easy or random to come by in abundance for anyone, shouldn't a Cheechoo equivalent player at least have challenged for the assist crown in any random year at some point?

There are obviously symbiotic or semi-symbiotic relationships though relating to this. Hull & Oates was a symbiotic one, Mogilny & Lafontaine as well. Anson Carter and Alex Burrows certainly helped the Sedins, but they hardly made them, so semi-symbiotic at best.

But not all goals are created equal. It's incredibly hard to do everything on your own goal scoring wise, unless you're prime Lemieux, or young Ovechkin, or Bure going end-to-end on course to destroying his health.
 
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wetcoast said:
Why would you even go there no one is doing this except you here.

I think Crosby and McDavid are better salesman and it's a hard hill for Ovi to be considered as such because you know.
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Google trends is a good measure for popularity (selling the game). Ovechkin vs McDavid over the last half decade:

IMG_0307.jpeg



Ovechkin vs Crosby:

IMG_0306.jpeg
 
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