Do You Think Ovechkin's Legacy Will Improve over Time

[MadLuke]

It is what it is. They are all competing against their peers.

But McDavid did lead the league in assists 4 times ?

https://www.hockey-reference.com/leaders/assists_yearly.html

Or 3 if you do not count tie...

 

[bobholly39]

Yes just look at the stats but don't watch the games.

He is a great goal scorer but that's all he is bringing lately.

I don't watch a lot of Capital games - but since I'm a Habs fan I'm certainly watching this first round series.

I have to say - I haven't noticed Ovechkin a ton outside of goals. So - I'd tend to agree. He certainly doesn't dominate the game, or play like he did when younger. You notice him here and there, but nowhere near every shift.

But - it doesn't matter. Production is by far the most important thing - and he's coming through. I'd rather have a player you maybe notice a bit less, but who scores the big goals, vs one who has a ton of dangles or hits but doesn't score.

Ovechkin has been tremendous in 2024-2025. He's been tremendous regardless of age - but when you consider he's 39, it's even more impressive.

 

[maddskkilz]

Been reading through this thread and seems like it’s gotten a bit sidetracked.

The hardest thing to do in hockey is score goals and Ovechkin has scored more goals in approximately the same # of games as Gretzky who is regarded as the GOAT.

Yes, Ovechkin doesn’t have as many assists and only had a handful of peak seasons in terms of points. But we are comparing the greatest goal scoring winger to the best of the best and honestly I think he gets a bit underrated.

Assists only occur when the goal is scored. If Ovechkin spent more time / focus on driving play and setting up his team mates would the Capitals have been better off? Highly doubtful. Ovi and the caps are better off letting him score goals rather than drive play. Yes that requires him to be more of a stationary threat but again despite this deficiency he still scores and scores and scores and has scored.
Even after end of his peak he still would occasionally flash the speed and skill to go end to end just much less frequently.


So Ovi is clearly a tier or two above the other great goal scoring wingers like the Bossys, Brett Hulls, Teemu Selanne, and Pavel Bure. 65 goals, 3x Harts, Conn Smythe, 9x Rocket, and 2x Pearson

I mean that resume stacks up with any and every winger short of Jagr.

In terms of all time greats he’s behind the big 4, McDavid, and who else:

Lidstrom, Bourque: Consistently excellent defenseman for 15+ years seems on par with Ovi’s dominance and longevity as a goal scorer.

Crosby, Beliveau: Multi dimensional, multi Cup winning centers with impressive trophy cases.

- Beliveau: Hart x2, Conn Smythe, r-Rocket x2, 10x Cups, Art Ross

- Crosby: Hart x2, Art Ross x2, Conn Smythe x2, Rockets x2, Pearson x3, 3x Cups

Honestly, the more I think about it he’s really a top 10 player. Scoring goals is hard and he is in a class of his own. Yes, he drives play less than other players but he scores goals and has done so at an absolutely elite level for almost 20 years.

Goal scoring finishes:

1st: 9
2nd: 1
3rd: 2
4th: 2
5: 1
9th: 1

14th: 2
18th: 1
39th: 1

Combined with his physicality he truly has been a one of a kind superstar. I think there may be too much focus on him being a stationary scorer who doesn’t have high assist totals and taking for granted that he’s morphed and evolved his game to find ways to contribute offensively and impact the game positively. He is a legend and should be solidly in top 10

 

[Johnny Engine]

The hardest thing to do in hockey is score goals.

This is another thing I hear people saying on TV all the time as if it's obvious and I have no idea whether it's backed up by anything at all.

My first thought (against the notion) is that we see no shortage of AHL-caliber skaters pop in for a short period of time, score 25 goals and then never write or call to tell us how they're doing. I can't think of many equivalent players coming up to pop in 50 assists once. Now that wouldn't tell you everything because the latter guy is probably a centre and is going to have harder time handling the basic entry-level job requirements that have nothing to do with passing the puck...

Now if it's "the hardest thing to do in hockey is score goals [in the quantity that Alexander Ovechkin does]" well fine, that's not in question. Though maybe the hardest thing to do in hockey is to be as funny-looking as Mike Ricci - using that line of thinking I could say just about anything is the hardest.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I can't think of many equivalent players coming up to pop in 50 assists once.

Don't think that's the right comparable.

1151 50 assist seasons
3741 25 goal seasons

but agree with the premise that an outlier season is likely to be helped in big part by an unsustainably high shooting percentage, and it'd be a bit harder to get "the spot" to rack up a lot of say, powerplay assists where it tends to deliberately flow through a particular guy or two, and then you'd need a whole bunch of team on ice shooting% to rack up many assists, which is going to be a bit more normalized than an individual shooting 20 % randomly. i.e., Huberdeau out-assisting McDavid in 2021-22 with an all situations team on ice shooting % of 14.7 versus a very "unlucky" 11.5 for McDavid.

 

[Johnny Engine]

Don't think that's the right comparable.

1151 50 assist seasons
3741 25 goal seasons

but agree with the premise that an outlier season is likely to be helped in big part by an unsustainably high shooting percentage, and it'd be a bit harder to get "the spot" to rack up a lot of say, powerplay assists where it tends to deliberately flow through a particular guy or two, and then you'd need a whole bunch of team on ice shooting% to rack up many assists, which is going to be a bit more normalized than an individual shooting 20 % randomly. i.e., Huberdeau out-assisting McDavid in 2021-22 with an all situations team on ice shooting % of 14.7 versus a very "unlucky" 11.5 for McDavid.

Yeah, the numbers were pulled entirely out of the air and not the important part - for the record if one used 43 assists (25 x 1.7), there are 2206 of those...but that's not important. Your second paragraph makes sense, but in the end all we're doing is ruling out one possible justification for "scoring goals is the hardest thing you can do", best case there's a different justification, worst case it's a bunch of bull that we've been repeating for no other reason than that someone else said it first.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Yeah, the numbers were pulled entirely out of the air and not the important part - for the record if one used 43 assists (25 x 1.7), there are 2206 of those...but that's not important. Your second post makes sense, but in the end all we're doing is ruling out one possible justification for "scoring goals is the hardest thing you can do", best case there's a different justification, worst case it's a bunch of bull that we've been repeating for no other reason than that someone else said it first.

Sure it's just a thing people say that probably has a questionable empirical basis like you win with Centers and Wingers don't matter, goaltenders are real NHL players, etc.

 

[maddskkilz]

When do we see AHL-caliber players score 25 goals in a season?
Why are we comparing benchmarks of 25 goals and 50 assists in the first place?
Even if AHL caliber player does it once the skill is in being able to replicate it over and over and over.

It is difficult to consistently score 30 goals. Ovechkin averages 50 goals per 82 games OVER 20 seasons. That what makes it so special.

I am lost as to why 50 assists is some sort of magical threshold. We are talking about Ovi’s greatness in terms of all timers. He averages just under 40 assists per 82 games for his career. Can we not appreciate the greatness and skill that averaging 50 goals over 20 seasons is SIGNIFICANTLY more difficult than averaging 50 assists by virtue of multiple players (Sakic, Yzerman, Oates, etc) reaching that mark but only Gretzky and Ovi have scored 890+ goals. Scoring a goal or 20 goals in a season is not easy and yes there may be outliers through shooting percentage and luck that allow some players to occasionally score more than expected. 800+ goals is not an outlier or due to luck. It’s one of the most invaluable skills in hockey. Being able to score goals.

Assists have value in hockey and do signal an ability to drive play but being able to reliably and consistently score almost 50 goals a year on average represents truly high end talent. Let’s not get caught looking at the forest from the trees. If the debate is that Ovi is a premier goal scorer but his lower assist totals indicate inability to drive play then the question may be to determine tradeoff between goals and assist?

Ovi just went 44-29-73 over 65 games
Crosby tallied 33-58-91 over 80 games

Would you rather have 50 goals and 35 assists for 85 points or 33 goals and 58 assists for 91 points?

 

[WarriorofTime]

When do we see AHL-caliber players score 25 goals in a season?
Why are we comparing benchmarks of 25 goals and 50 assists in the first place?
Even if AHL caliber player does it once the skill is in being able to replicate it over and over and over.

It is difficult to consistently score 30 goals. Ovechkin averages 50 goals per 82 games OVER 20 seasons. That what makes it so special.

I am lost as to why 50 assists is some sort of magical threshold. We are talking about Ovi’s greatness in terms of all timers. He averages just under 40 assists per 82 games for his career. Can we not appreciate the greatness and skill that averaging 50 goals over 20 seasons is SIGNIFICANTLY more difficult than averaging 50 assists by virtue of multiple players (Sakic, Yzerman, Oates, etc) reaching that mark but only Gretzky and Ovi have scored 890+ goals. Scoring a goal or 20 goals in a season is not easy and yes there may be outliers through shooting percentage and luck that allow some players to occasionally score more than expected. 800+ goals is not an outlier or due to luck. It’s one of the most invaluable skills in hockey. Being able to score goals.

Assists have value in hockey and do signal an ability to drive play but being able to reliably and consistently score almost 50 goals a year on average represents truly high end talent. Let’s not get caught looking at the forest from the trees. If the debate is that Ovi is a premier goal scorer but his lower assist totals indicate inability to drive play then the question may be to determine tradeoff between goals and assist?

Ovi just went 44-29-73 over 65 games
Crosby tallied 33-58-91 over 80 games

Would you rather have 50 goals and 35 assists for 85 points or 33 goals and 58 assists for 91 points?

Think it's fine/normal/general consensus to prefer Crosby who is 10th in career assists/16th in career goals which is very balanced, but it'd be a bit harder to justify a Ron Francis equivalent (just ignore the scoring inflation for one second which is the obvious "real reason" you don't see his name highly on best ever lists) who is 2nd in assists/31st in goals, although I suppose people could disagree there.

 

[MeHateHe]

When do we see AHL-caliber players score 25 goals in a season?

Warren Young had 40 in 84-85. He never scored 40 in the AHL, although he hit 53 in the Eastern Hockey League.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Would you rather have 50 goals and 35 assists for 85 points or 33 goals and 58 assists for 91 points?

All things being equally foggy, I guess I want the six more guaranteed goals.

 

[MadLuke]

Would you rather have 50 goals and 35 assists for 85 points or 33 goals and 58 assists for 91 points?

There is a strong goals > points, conversation that can be made until a certain level, after a certain amount of points, marginal extra points pretty much mean a goal being scored, at least I think there is a logic in that.

a bit like power play points, maybe on the first 40 points Lemieux get on the powerplay a regular star player would also have done it, but after that they become almost pure extra goals.

 

[maddskkilz]

Warren Young had 40 in 84-85. He never scored 40 in the AHL, although he hit 53 in the Eastern Hockey League.

He was riding shotgun with Mario Lemieux which is why he scored 40 goals. Once he stopped playing Lemieux’s wing his scoring dried up and he was out of the league a couple years later. Not a good example of showing an AHLer can get hot and just pot 25 goals.

 

[maddskkilz]

There is a strong goals > points, conversation that can be made until a certain level, after a certain amount of points, marginal extra points pretty much mean a goal being scored, at least I think there is a logic in that.

a bit like power play points, maybe on the first 40 points Lemieux get on the powerplay a regular star player would also have done it, but after that they become almost pure extra goals.

Agreed on this but there is still a tradeoff between goals and points and it really feels like splitting hairs. I think goals carry more value and thus find players with a higher goals/ assist ratio preferable. At some point the tradeoff is not worth it but I would say using last season’s numbers per 82 games you could make a strong argument for either Crosby’s higher points or Ovechkin’s lead in goals

 

[Michael Farkas]

He was riding shotgun with Mario Lemieux which is why he scored 40 goals. Once he stopped playing Lemieux’s wing his scoring dried up and he was out of the league a couple years later. Not a good example of showing an AHLer can get hot and just pot 25 goals.

Isn't it though? It's a situation where someone else can do the heavy lifting and the benefactor is doing evidently the toughest thing to do...but, in fact, we know (sorry for ad populum, but...) that it was all Lemieux, while Young was some schlub he was banking pucks in off of...

 

[maddskkilz]

Isn't it though? It's a situation where someone else can do the heavy lifting and the benefactor is doing evidently the toughest thing to do...but, in fact, we know (sorry for ad populum, but...) that it was all Lemieux, while Young was some schlub he was banking pucks in off of...

Again I feel like the conversation is going off the rails.

Is Ovechkin’s legacy going to look better over time?
I posit yes because his accomplishments are amazing and his constistent, elite level goal scoring are under appreciated.

The argument that any AHL level player can score 25 goals in a season is ridiculous even at face value. Warren Young scored 40 goals in a season with 16 100 point scorers and was lining up to one of the top 4 greatest players of all time.

Scoring goals is insanely hard and scoring 50 is a remarkable season and averaging 50 goals over a 20 year career is astounding. Scoring 25 goals in a single season can be attributed to flakiness and randomness but Ovi’s greatness is being able to consistently get shots on net and score goals in the most difficult scoring environment ever (better goaltending and defensive systems).

Is the argument that Ovi doesn’t drive play by looking at his meager assist totals and surmising that he is not an all time great?

Said differently - his greatness and talent is in scoring goals and somehow he is being devalued because he didn’t put up higher assist totals. Players that put up higher assist totals could not just switch to start scoring goals more and then do so.
It’s not that easy.

Scoring goals is harder than racking up assists. But there is some tradeoff point where it isn’t worth it.

All things being equal here is an example at the extremes to underline my point:

80 goals and 0 assists is more valuable than 80 assists and 0 goals, and most people would probably agree it’s more valuable than 1 goal and 80 assists.

At some point there is a tradeoff tho.
50 goals and 35 assists may or may not be more valuable or impressive than say 35 goals and 60 assists.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yeah, I don't want this into devolve into something where Ovechkin's goal scoring is equated with Warren Young's haha (which I don't think is happening) - certainly not in Ovechkin's prime where he was a freight train.

But this is what happens when we try to take shortcuts. Are goals the hardest thing? Maybe. Not for Lemieux's linemate. The hardest thing for Lemieux was getting assists from his non-NHL linemates and defense probably. On that team, he was passing a puck and likely not getting it back....at least not in any useful condition haha

But again, folks make grandiose claims as if there is an objective truth or whatever...but ultimately, it needs proper evaluation on the rink. Ovechkin had basically a 50 goal season this year...but watching the games, he was pretty tough to find most nights. 50 goal Ovechkin 15 years ago was impossible to miss. I don't value these seasons the same because the impact was different even if the number is the same.

Like you said, 50+35 may or may not be more valuable or impressive as 35+60...it's just a couple of numbers and we have no idea how/why they occurred. We don't know.

 

[Johnny Engine]

Isn't it though? It's a situation where someone else can do the heavy lifting and the benefactor is doing evidently the toughest thing to do...but, in fact, we know (sorry for ad populum, but...) that it was all Lemieux, while Young was some schlub he was banking pucks in off of...

This, and the thing that'd at least partially answer my original question, is finding a guy riding around on a more shot-focused set of coattails and then having a similar sort of career.
Best I can do is Ab MacDonald, whose career is certainly extended a bit by expansion, but is also hangs in with the original 6 teams longer than Young hangs with any team. Besides that, when I think about guys who are racking up big assist totals by playing with great snipers, it's guys like Marc Savard, or if I think about big playmaking numbers on expansion teams it's Andrew Brunette, and they kept getting jobs on full merit after their breakout situation had passed.

 

[Michael Farkas]

It's an interesting thought. My instinct is that you'd find more fly by night goal scorers because you can be one-dimensional and/or dumb and still score goals. At the same time, you're more likely to get time if you have a big shot because, yup, goals can be tough to come by and expensive to buy.

On the flip side, creating assists while being dumb is unlikely given what's needed to generate and manipulate passing lanes. Since you're more likely to be intelligent, you're more likely to adapt to your surroundings, and you're more likely to stick around for longer.

(Needless internet disclaimers: no, I don't think that all or most or whatever goal scorers are dumb and one dimensional)

That said, I don't know if that is enough to move the needle on goals being the hardest thing or not, generally. Just because an unbalanced or otherwise suboptimal player can score, I'm not sure if that's an exhibit towards anything noteworthy. Open to how others interpret the concept...

 

[Sentinel]

But McDavid did lead the league in assists 4 times ?

https://www.hockey-reference.com/leaders/assists_yearly.html

Or 3 if you do not count tie...

 

[jigglysquishy]

View attachment 1025317

He led in 2017 and 2021, despite it not being bolded.

 

[WarriorofTime]

20 assists is easier than 20 goals hence why we use a higher number of assists to reach equivalency. Everyone understands just from a basic math standpoint that “getting a single assist” is just a lot more prevalent (which you could say is “easier”) than scoring a single goal.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Oh God, the "I just ask 'how many'" guy can't ****** count?!?! Haha

 

[MadLuke]

Oh God, the "I just ask 'how many'" can't ****** count?!?! Haha

With the Dicky Moore > Joe Sakic and Steve Yzerman argument.

1 > 0 and 1 > 0

 

[The Panther]

Question: Is Ovechkin's future legacy a History of Hockey topic?