Do You Think Ovechkin's Legacy Will Improve over Time

[Midnight Judges]

I don't know, I see a couple Washington/Ovechkin fans lamenting Ovechkin's poor teammates in a few of these Ovechkin threads. Seems like an easy enough connection for me, but maybe I don't "know anything about hockey".

Ovechkin has generally been on pretty good teams and had pretty good teammates.

However, compared to the top 20 players - as ranked in this forum - his best teammates are certainly not among the best.

Gretzky had Messier (21), Coffey (48), Kurri (76)

Howe had Kelly (17), Sawchuk (35), Lindsay (38), Abel (100)

Orr had Esposito (27)

Lemieux had Jagr (16) and meaningful bits of others.

Hull had Mikita (24), Hall (28), Pilote (54)

Beliveau had Harvey (8), Richard (9), Plante (19), Henri Rickard (49), Geoffrion (58), Moore (68)

Richard (see above)

Bourque compares (except for his stacked cup winning team).

Morenz perhaps compares but had Joliot (78)

Crosby had Malkin (52) - (underrated Malkin IMO).

Hasek is comparable or had worse teammates until his stacked cup teams.

Shore had Clapper (73) and Stewart (92)

Lidstrom had Yzerman (40), Fedorov (88),

Jagr Had Lemieux (4)

Kelly had Howe (2), Sawchuk (35), Lindsay (38), Abel (100)

Potvin had Trottier (31), Bossy (36)

Nighbor had Denneny (79)

Ovechkin had.....Backstrom (~350?). So who does that compare to among this group? Maybe Bourque?

 

[sr edler]

Cup winning Ovi still had a line-mate he couldn't outscore, a line-mate who also drove most (or all) of the play and was absolutely excellent at carrying the puck up the ice and at zone-entries, there's really no way to dance around this.

Young Ovi was a riot who carried the play himself (on small NHL ice at least, not internationally) and was an overall wrecking ball force, but this is not who he's been for the last decade or so (decade plus, really).

Look what happened to Nashville this season when they gave Stamkos an extended role as a building block type C, with much juicy ice time and all that shit. Total implosion.

WSH did the only smart thing this season, let guys like Strome, McMichael, Chychrun, Carlson, Wilson and Protas run the show, and then Ovechkin could do his Stamkos thing from his own personal space. This is how any successful working place functions. Let people do what they're good at, and let them not do things they're not good at.

 

[Sentinel]

Well if you don't think that his season this year with a line of 67-26-74-100 and to start the playoffs with a line of 3-25-7 isn't moving McDavid up then I don't know what to tell you.

McDavid also has this line compared to Espositio during his Boston years in adjusted stats.

Connor 712-387-768-1155

Phil 625-436-539-975

McDavid also already has the better playoff resume and IMO has passed Phil on the all time list as well unless you think Phil scoring some PPG in the alter 70s while being an atrocious 2 way player really adds all that much.

Speaking of Art Rosses that's part of the problem with Ovi outside of his peak as his point totals given his usage are just underwhelming in an all time sense.

I mean Crosby even with the injuries has 13 top 10 scoring finishes to Ovi's 8, just let that sink in for a minute.

The stat lines I prefer are

Esposito: 2 Harts (in the Orr era), 5 Art Rosses, 6 r-Richards, 3x assist leader, 6 1AST, 76 goal peak, 2 Cups, one of the greatest leaders in history.
McDavid: 3 Harts, 5 Art Rosses, 1 Richard, 2x assist leader, 5 1AST, 64 goal peak, 0 Cups, wet fish charisma.

McDavid is one of the best of all time, and the margin between #6 (Esposito) and #11 (McD) is razor thin. But it's tangible.

 

[wetcoast]

The stat lines I prefer are

Esposito: 2 Harts (in the Orr era), 5 Art Rosses, 6 r-Richards, 3x assist leader, 6 1AST, 76 goal peak, 2 Cups, one of the greatest leaders in history.
McDavid: 3 Harts, 5 Art Rosses, 1 Richard, 2x assist leader, 5 1AST, 64 goal peak, 0 Cups, wet fish charisma.

McDavid is one of the best of all time, and the margin between #6 (Esposito) and #11 (McD) is razor thin. But it's tangible.

McDavid also already has 9 elite seasons which is one more than Big Phil and the better overall playoff resume and looking at the whole picture McDavid's "worst " season is still better than Esposito's worst 6-9ish seasons, that's quite a difference.

I for one like considering the whole picture not just the high points of anyone's career and like I mentioned up thread Esposito's playoff resume in Chicago makes Marcel Dionne's looks good.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Bourque had Neely, who was a genuine superstar. In the 1988 run, Bourque was arguably only the third best Bruin.

Neely's ranking will be impacted by longevity and injuries, but was a major impact player for ~5 years.

At the least, I would take Neely 88 over Kuznetsov 18.

Conversely, Bourque's 2001 run was phenomenal despite being on a stacked team. They leaned hard on their big three defenseman and he was expected to take the number one all situations role despite being 41.



People are too harsh on Esposito, but there's a massive gulf between him and McDavid. Contemporary opinion has him as maybe the best forward 1969-1972 (Hull is praised more) and maybe second or third best 1973-1975 (Clarke, Kharlamov). The general opinion is that he's an overall worse player than Hull o Beliveau.

McDavid is viewed as the clearcut best player of his generation and most view him at worst as the second best player of the preceding 20 years. There's really no comparison.

 

[The Panther]

Bourque had Neely, who was a genuine superstar. In the 1988 run, Bourque was arguably only the third best Brui

Wow, I really disagree with this. Bourque the third best Bruin in 1988...? Can't see that at all. And Neely a 'genuine superstar' in spring 1988 seems over-stating the case. Keep in mind that, to this point since the 1986 trade, Barry Pederson in Vancouver had outscored Neely.

 

[Sentinel]

McDavid also already has 9 elite seasons which is one more than Big Phil and the better overall playoff resume and looking at the whole picture McDavid's "worst " season is still better than Esposito's worst 6-9ish seasons, that's quite a difference.

I for one like considering the whole picture not just the high points of anyone's career and like I mentioned up thread Esposito's playoff resume in Chicago makes Marcel Dionne's looks good.

Only if somehow 0 > 2 in your world...

McDavid's elite seasons are clearly not as elite as Esposito's... unless, of course, 1 > 6 and 2 > 3

 

[jigglysquishy]

Wow, I really disagree with this. Bourque the third best Bruin in 1988...? Can't see that at all. And Neely a 'genuine superstar' in spring 1988 seems over-stating the case. Keep in mind that, to this point since the 1986 trade, Barry Pederson in Vancouver had outscored Neely.

Both Neely and Lemelin get more love going game by game in the playoffs.

I'm going through every game for the dmen project and was definitely expecting more from the 1988 run. 1990 is a different story. He's a difference maker througout that entire run.

 

[JFedol]

20 years from now, Ovi's going to go through a lot of revisonist history 100% all because of stat-padding esque goalscoring.

Possibly more than Crosby as well

 

[Michael Farkas]

People are watching 10+ years of Esposito and McDavid and saying, "give me Esposito"...?

 

[CactusCap]

20 years from now, Ovi's going to go through a lot of revisonist history 100% all because of stat-padding esque goalscoring.

Possibly more than Crosby as well

Stat-padding all the way to the playoffs last year and the number 1 seed in the East this year.

The hate is nauseating. People bend over backwards to overvalue assists on this site. Did everyone on here play C or something?

 

[JFedol]

Stat-padding all the way to the playoffs last year and the number 1 seed in the East this year.

And it didn't amount to anything considering he went pointless lol.

This first round win vs Montreal will just lead to another humbling experience when Carolina puts Washington in their place and Ovi gets shut down. Completely 1 dimensional

 

[Roshi]

Yes, Ovechkins legacy will shine brighter in the future.

Theres recency bias. People are often deferring him as the player he is today, not what he was in his prime. The recency bias will fade and he will be highlighted more for his prime years.

The comparison for Crosby et al will fade aswell. Thats a NHL built rivalry/storyline that takes every discussion of either individual sidelines in a rush. You dont see Gretzky or Lemieux being downgraded because they played in the same timeline, if you get what I mean. A lot of biased opinions in the mix.

And, Ovechkin should not be compared to pretty much anyone at this point. He is not in the "best overall player" category to compare. He is the best goal scorer, start and end of any comparison in that category. Is it better to be a top5-10 player in "overall", or clearcut GOAT at one special skill (that happens to be most important skill there is). The question is, at what point does that one special skill override the "overall"? Since the former GOAT goal scorer was Gretzky who just was the best all around hockey player ever, Ovechkin has kind of created his own category of compariment.

 

[K Fleur]

People are watching 10+ years of Esposito and McDavid and saying, "give me Esposito"...?

Obviously not. Because that requires you know.. a little work.

Way lazier to just trophy count.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Super lucky for Ovechkin that Dylan Strome transformed from Unqualified RFA to good number 1 Center once he started playing with the best goalscorer in hockey history.

 

[MadLuke]

McDavid's elite seasons are clearly not as elite as Esposito's... unless, of course, 1 > 6 and 2 > 3

It took me a while to understand those numbers, those are number of times a player did lead in goals or assists.... ? No it cannot be.

McDavid: 3 Harts, 5 Art Rosses, 1 Richard, 2x assist leader, 5 1AST, 64 goal peak, 0 Cups, wet fish charisma.

Oh ok, ..https://www.hockey-reference.com/leaders/assists_top_10.html

McDavid scoring 100 assists in 2024 do not count in his assist leader total because of a tie with Kucherov ? but what about the 3 other time ?

This is such a binary way to look at player, that put Scott Gomez 2004 season on the same footing than McDavid-Kucherov 100 assists season..

 

[Midnight Judges]

And it didn't amount to anything considering he went pointless lol.

This first round win vs Montreal will just lead to another humbling experience when Carolina puts Washington in their place and Ovi gets shut down. Completely 1 dimensional

Ask Jake Evans or Cole Caufield how “1 dimensional” Ovie is.

 

[wetcoast]

Super lucky for Ovechkin that Dylan Strome transformed from Unqualified RFA to good number 1 Center once he started playing with the best goalscorer in hockey history.

Sure Ovi skating slowly on the periphery sure helps makes Strome look better right?

It's almost like you aren't watching him out there especially on the PP just floats and is option #5 always on the zone entry.

There is no shame in that given his age but it's not a winning formula going forward.

 

[Roshi]

Sure Ovi skating slowly on the periphery sure helps makes Strome look better right?

It's almost like you aren't watching him out there especially on the PP just floats and is option #5 always on the zone entry.

There is no shame in that given his age but it's not a winning formula going forward.

Well it does actually give others more time and space, for him just standing around. The other team will always cheat and even double on trying to kill Ovies shooting lanes. That has actually been their scheme for years. Mostly the problem has been finding the guys who can make the most out of that little extra time and space. All the respect for Strome for making the most out of it, it takes talent aswell.

He still gets all those shots, all those goals, just standing and floating there. Its because he recognizes game, those little moments and little tweaks where he can jump on.

Not accepting his greatness as a player tells more about you than Ovechkin. Every player, every coach, every goalie in the league however tells you otherwise.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Sure Ovi skating slowly on the periphery sure helps makes Strome look better right?

It's almost like you aren't watching him out there especially on the PP just floats and is option #5 always on the zone entry.

There is no shame in that given his age but it's not a winning formula going forward.

what I'm not saying Ovechkin is leading zone entries, I know it's cool and all to surmise Ovechkin is some kinda combo of lucky/not threatening offensively/not a winning player... but of course it creates a lot of gravity and frees up teammates if teams shade over to Ovechkin too much, and then if they don't, well there's 897 reasons you don't

or yeah sure, credit to Top 2000 All-time player Dylan Strome for saving Ovechkin's legacy

 

[wetcoast]

Well it does actually give others more time and space, for him just standing around. The other team will always cheat and even double on trying to kill Ovies shooting lanes. That has actually been their scheme for years. Mostly the problem has been finding the guys who can make the most out of that little extra time and space. All the respect for Strome for making the most out of it, it takes talent aswell.

He still gets all those shots, all those goals, just standing and floating there. Its because he recognizes game, those little moments and little tweaks where he can jump on.

Not accepting his greatness as a player tells more about you than Ovechkin. Every player, every coach, every goalie in the league however tells you otherwise.

You seem to be jumping to some conclusions here as floating around is just being on the ice, the whole creating more space is offset but somewhat nullifying the man advantage on the PP, just watch it.

Also while it's true that a 38 year old Ovi definitely isn't a great player anymore his greatness,like 99.9%of players happened in his peak/prime and if you think that he is still a great player his usage by the Capitals coaching suggest otherwise right?

 

[Roshi]

You seem to be jumping to some conclusions here as floating around is just being on the ice, the whole creating more space is offset but somewhat nullifying the man advantage on the PP, just watch it.

Also while it's true that a 38 year old Ovi definitely isn't a great player anymore his greatness,like 99.9%of players happened in his peak/prime and if you think that he is still a great player his usage by the Capitals coaching suggest otherwise right?

You do understand that he just scored 44 goals, at pace for top2 in the league.

Id say thats still pretty great.

 

[wetcoast]

You do understand that he just scored 44 goals, at pace for top2 in the league.

Id say thats still pretty great.

Yes just look at the stats but don't watch the games.

He is a great goal scorer but that's all he is bringing lately.

 

[Sentinel]

It took me a while to understand those numbers, those are number of times a player did lead in goals or assists.... ? No it cannot be.

Sure is.

Oh ok, ..https://www.hockey-reference.com/leaders/assists_top_10.html

McDavid scoring 100 assists in 2024 do not count in his assist leader total because of a tie with Kucherov ? but what about the 3 other time ?

This is such a binary way to look at player, that put Scott Gomez 2004 season on the same footing than McDavid-Kucherov 100 assists season..

It is what it is. They are all competing against their peers.

 

[Roshi]

Yes just look at the stats but don't watch the games.

He is a great goal scorer but that's all he is bringing lately.

Ive watched 69 games this season. I agree that he is a great goal scorer.