Do you think Montreal should retire Saku Koivu's number?
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Lafleurs Guy
Guuuuuuuy!
- Jul 20, 2007
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Ohashi_Jouzu*
Registered User
Yes.
I just want to see how far Ohashi's going to go with this nonsense.
I'll try to keep up with your uncanny ability to turn what people say into something that you'd prefer to argue against instead.
FerrisRox
"Wanna go, Prettyboy?"
You think that proves that Tie Domi and Kris King *weren't* acquired to add toughness and protect Selanne?
I think you should read it again.
FerrisRox
"Wanna go, Prettyboy?"
Obviously you looked up how many fights he had because you wouldn't just say this only to make yourself look silly later.
Tkachuk had seven fights that season. Three of the game in the first week of the season, and another one came with just nine seconds left in a game.
Do you really think it was a big issue that affected his ability to produce points? I'm not sure those four rights scattered over a full season made it difficult to orate him back into lines at all.
Try again.
Ohashi_Jouzu*
Registered User
Don't have to. It sufficiently proved that it WASN'T this:
Since, as you probably read like everyone else, he coveted Domi and King for their style of play and intangibles well before getting the idea that Olczyk's goal scoring contribution was "redundant".
Ohashi_Jouzu*
Registered User
Right. Like all the good ones do, they make their statements early in the season in hopes that it keeps everyone closer to "real" hockey when the games start to matter more. Look at the entire history of fights in the NHL and you'll see who is fighting and how often, Sept./Oct. versus the rest of the schedule. You're not telling me anything I don't already understand.
No, I think relative lack of opportunity on the PP until part way through the season probably had as big of an impact as anything else; maybe even how he was used (the puck didn't exactly go through Tkachuk on the PP, as he'd be looking to tee one up or parked somewhere close to the front of the net 9 times out of 10... no assists for screens
).But part of the whole Housley to Selanne thing also involved banging players off the puck or blocking shots in the defensive zone first, and there usually aren't any assists awarded for that, either. That line (the "Olympic Line", if you've forgotten) stuck together so long (I think I've seen a hockey card from '95? '96? still celebrating them as a "power line") that I think there's a sufficient argument saying that whatever they did or contributed while together, it produced goals.
FerrisRox
"Wanna go, Prettyboy?"
Actually there was a reason why his handful of fights on the season were stacked toward the beginning of the schedule.
On January 2nd, the Jets acquired Tie Domi and Kris King.
Keith Tkachuk fought for the final time that season on January 3rd.
Domi had 15 fights the rest of the season, King hand 9.
But you go ahead and pretend that Keith Tkachuk was the policeman for Teemu Selanne and Domi and King weren't added to the team to protect the Jets young stars, namely, Selanne.
FerrisRox
"Wanna go, Prettyboy?"
Yeah, no ****.
And guess what "intangibles and style of play" he got from King and Domi? Fights. The two combined for 24 fights for the Jets after being acquired.
The following year, when they were each in Winnipeg for a full-season, King dropped the gloves 19 times and Domi fought 20 times. You don't have to be a rocket scientist - or fully conscious - to know exactly what their "style of play" was.
This is just getting ridiculous.
First you argue that Koivu and Selanne were the same caliber of player, now you're arguing that Tie Domi and Kris King weren't brought into Winnipeg to be policemen?
This is my last post in this thread. I'm not taking the bait anymore.
Ohashi_Jouzu*
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Ohashi_Jouzu*
Registered User
Yeah, pretend that's what I'm saying. It gave them more team toughness by committee, which Smith wanted. Of course he took a back seat as a rookie once those two guys came into the locker room, and I'm not trying to paint Tkachuk as an "enforcer", but it was him skating with Selanne out there as a lightning rod for the physicality/abuse, not them. Gave them the boost they needed and spurred on a pretty good winning streak, but I hope you're not pretending like they were brought in because of Tkachuk's inability to contribute in such a role. Adding to the committee simply left him able to focus more on putting up 40/50 goal paces than he might have been able to if everything else was still on, say, Dean Kennedy's (nearing the end of his career) or Igor Ulanov's (at the beginning of his) shoulders.
Lafleurs Guy
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sholi2000
No One Gets Left Behind
I don't remember the name of the civilian award given to people for being a great human being, but Saku deserves that for everything he's done in Montreal. To me having your jersey retired in Montreal is all about what you accomplished on the ice. Every single jersey retired in Montreal is about that. If being a great Captain get's your number retired, then he goes up because he was a great Captain in Montreal and a good player on very bad teams.
Sir Jacques Demers
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- May 5, 2006
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Koivu was a dependable, hardworking 2nd line tier player, who potentially could have had regular 75-80 point seasons if paired with the right players and supporting cast. Had these things panned out, he would have made the cut despite his injuries.
Unfortunately he played for a terrible team in the early 2000s and terrible general managers in the late 2000s who were unwilling to use playoff rentals to push the team to the next level (besides Kovalev, the Canadiens never really rented anyone that could play on the top 2 lines). In his tenure, the Canadiens won 3 games in the 2nd round of the playoffs, albeit losing frequently to teams that went on to the SCF. This is one of the worst playoff records when you exclude the Islanders and Expansion teams.
Although I admire Koivu for a lot of things, he was just terrible at finishing plays and was rarely a game changer. I don't feel he was dominant at anything except playmaking on the powerplay, and being solid/dependable in the playoffs. A lot of the points he would score would not affect the outcome of games. I know he's a playmaker, but you have to score more than 3 important goals per year in order to be considered an elite player.
And at least 1 slapshot goal at some point in your entire career. (Did he ever?)
Unfortunately he played for a terrible team in the early 2000s and terrible general managers in the late 2000s who were unwilling to use playoff rentals to push the team to the next level (besides Kovalev, the Canadiens never really rented anyone that could play on the top 2 lines). In his tenure, the Canadiens won 3 games in the 2nd round of the playoffs, albeit losing frequently to teams that went on to the SCF. This is one of the worst playoff records when you exclude the Islanders and Expansion teams.
Although I admire Koivu for a lot of things, he was just terrible at finishing plays and was rarely a game changer. I don't feel he was dominant at anything except playmaking on the powerplay, and being solid/dependable in the playoffs. A lot of the points he would score would not affect the outcome of games. I know he's a playmaker, but you have to score more than 3 important goals per year in order to be considered an elite player.
And at least 1 slapshot goal at some point in your entire career. (Did he ever?)
Ohashi_Jouzu*
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Sir Jacques Demers
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The guy averaged 0.23 goals per game in his carrer while playing big powerplay minutes, you're going to call him a quality finisher? I never suggested he didn't battle hard, I'm just stating very often the results weren't there. He seemed to have twice as many missed chances as anyone else on the ice every night.
Ohashi_Jouzu*
Registered User
Well, he shot over 12% during his entire stay in Montreal, which is hardly bad. You check for yourself how that stacks up against anyone else - before or since. I think you should watch a few of these videos here and remind yourself of what kind of finisher he actually was ("quality", or not). Someone complained earlier that he rarely took slapshots. Watch some video, and you'll see that he's always 10-15 feet from the net, and used to deke out goalies just as easily as fire a wrister or backhand past them. Who needs a slapshot that close?
As far as missing chances, well, you'll notice that even Ovechkin has to take ~400 shots/year to get ~50 goals (and is a career 12.3% shooter - Koivu was 12.4% with the Habs btw), so... yeah. Don't penalize players for putting on offensive pressure but not burying 50% of their chances. No one does that.
Sir Jacques Demers
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When Koivu would miss his chances, it usually wouldn't result in a shot. He'd work hard to generate an opportunity but either him or his linemates wouldn't control the slot pass cleanly. Or he'd get tied up. Or he'd look for the pass too much. Perhaps I'm biased because I wouldn't watch other teams much, and I was really young when I watched most of his career develop. Eventually though, I developed the expectation that he'd rarely dominate a game and frequently contribute to games where the Canadiens either had a big lead or a big deficit. In his prime I found he was a very effective puck mover and deadly on the powerplay. He had a knack for almost never being the hero. The thing I credit him for the most is making the players around him much better. I liked seeing him on the ice, as long as he wasn't the one controlling the play on his own and had good support.
Often enough I'd just be flipping channels, catching a glimpse of another game, and I'd see elite players (on other teams) step up and turn a game around with 2 even-strength points in 1 period of play, and it really contrasted with every habs player on the roster most nights.
Ohashi_Jouzu*
Registered User
"Eventually though"... like... once he was into his 30s? Sounds fair (
), but I wouldn't expect you to have too much working memory of anything else given your age without putting in a lot more video time since.
Le Tricolore
Boo! BOOOO!
The Habs also have Lach, Lapointe, and Dickie Moore.
Not every person up their is arguably the best (or top 3) in their position. They're all great players who did a lot for the organization.
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