Do you see Kucherov having an argument for best Russian player of all time?

[bobholly39]

I've been a pretty big defender of Kucherov for a while. Any time there's talk of who #2 is, between him Mack or Drai, I tend to lead with Kucherov. Anytime there's talk of "is anyone better than McDavid" - I don't say Kucherov is better per se, but if anyone has a case it's probably him. His 128 point season, I rate that super high, more than most who tend to give too much credit to his team and not enough to Kuch.

So - I think very very highly of Kucherov.

That being said - no chance he surpasses Ovechkin for career in my opinion. Ovechkin's peak is better (even if you want to argue his 128 point season may be better than 65 goals, Ovi has a stretch of 3 straight seasons Kuch can't touch). And then Ovechkin has insane consistency in his prime - it's true he wasn't winning the Ross or Hart every year, but he won the rocket a ridiculous amount of times. I can't imagine Kucherov nearing that level of consistency nor longevity.

I could see him finish #2 among Russians if he keeps this up though.

Also - anyone saying Ovechkin isn't #1 all-time for Russians is out to lunch. He's clearly surpassed every other Russian player of all time, NHL or not NHL.

 

[bobholly39]

Ovi isn't best russian player. That's Kharlamov & Makarov. But they never played in NHL. In Makarov's case he entered the league already way past his prime.

You're severely underrating Ovechkin. He's surpassed them all now.

Best Russian NHL player? I'd say he has a chance although surpassing Ovechkin will be no easy feat and I'd also argue he still hasn't surpassed Bure

Best Russian player of all time? Even more unlikely

He's surpassed Bure. Kucherov's peak season is better than anything Bure ever did - and he doesn't do too bad in his 2-4 best season vs Bure's 2-4 best ones either. He's also surpassed Bure for playoffs, and this was before even this year's run.

I like Bure a lot and rate him pretty high - but Kucherov simply has the better resume.

Hard to compare guys who didn't play in the NHL or came over late in their careers, but I don't think he has much chance of passing Ovechkin. He could maybe pass Malkin and Fedorov.

Pretty gigantic gap between Malkin and Fedorov - and I'd argue Kucherov has/will definitely surpass Fedorov. If you absolutely can't get passed the low games played (still 515 only for Kuch) - maybe you still prefer Fedorov due to longevity, but in terms of accomplishments/peak/prime - Kucherov is already better.

Fedorov has a fantastic playoff resume - 183 playoff games, 3 cups. Kucherov has been so good i'm tempted to already put him ahead there too, despite only 106 games. Less runs maybe - but on a per game/per run basis, he's better at his best.

As for Malkin - I think Malkin is a better target for Kucherov. I think Kucherov could surpass Malkin, but it'll take a lot. It's hard to predict what type of consistency/longevity Kucherov will have moving forward, but he needs to remain at this level, or close, for more years to top Malkin.

He will never be considered greater than Ovechkin even if he were to have a good enough career to justify it. Ovechkin’s rocket wins and goal totally are just too legendary.

But on an somewhat unrelated note, I don’t see why Kucherov shouldn’t be considered just as good or possibly better than Patrick Kane when it’s all said and done. There’s really nothing Kane has done that Kucherov hasn’t, and Kucherov has more of his career left to add to the resume.

Patrick Kane is a pretty good comparable. I think I already prefer Kucherov though. He's missing longevity clearly, but:

Best season - give me Kucherov
Best seasons #2-4 - give me Kucherov (closer)
Best individual playoff run - give me Kuch
Best individual playoff runs 2-4 - give me Kuch

Some of the above are probably a bit close - but Kuch just seems to be doing a bit better than Kane did in every area. He needs longevity, but in my opinion he's very likely to surpass Kane, and maybe by a lot.

 

[JackSlater]

He's already 28. It seems unfathomable that he could possibly pass Ovechkin.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

If he was younger. He has a ways to catch Malkin and Fedorov still.

 

[ESH]

No. He's gonna have a tough time passing Mogilny, Fedorov and even Bure's numbers. They're not even the best, Ovi is the king.

He’s only ~200 points short of Bure already in his career. He will have no problem surpassing his numbers.

 

[Hockeyholic]

He's already better than Mogilny, Kovalev, or Bure ever was. He will likely top them in points.

No chance he surpasses Ovi.

 

[Xspyrit]

Kucherov is 6th in all-time playoffs PPG among players that had at least 82 GP. Kinda impressive that he's doing it today vs the 80's

NHL Stats

 

[North Cole]

Personally, I think he would need a Lidstrom type back half of his career to pass OV. Lol @ OV not being the greatest Russian of all time...

OV's first 515 games he had no cup.

PPG - 1.26 to 1.06
Goals - 318 to 221
Harts (top 5) - 1/1/2 to 1
Lindsay (top 5) - 1/1/1 to 1
Ross - 1 to 1
Rockets - 2 to 0
1-AS - 4 to 2
Calder - 1 to 0

All of the above is OV to Kucherov. So Kucherov basically has the cup, and may get a Conn Smythe this year.

Note OV's first 515 games end at Jan 10, 2012. 2012-13 season he won another Hart and Rocket.

 

[filinski77]

No chance that he passes Ovechkin. Ovechkin will finish his career with 3-4x as many individual accomplishments.

Decent chance he 'could' pass a guy like Malkin though and become the 2nd best Russian NHLer of all time (will still take a lot of work though). I won't comment on the non-NHL Russians as that would take a lot more work to compare.

 

[AvroArrow]

He's not even the best Russian player right now. OV and Malkin both clearly better for their careers.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

No chance he passes Malkin or Ovechkin.

Fedorov is likely out of reach as well, due to his defensive excellence.

Has a very good chance to catch Mogilny, Bure, Datsyuk.

Edit: this is just the NHL Russians.

 

[The Macho King]

No chance he passes Malkin or Ovechkin.

Fedorov is likely out of reach as well, due to his defensive excellence.

Has a very good chance to catch Mogilny, Bure, Datsyuk.

Edit: this is just the NHL Russians.

Not getting the Malkin talk. Like - Malkin has two AR, one Smythe, and is generally real good, but... that's far from unassailable?

 

[Regal]

You're severely underrating Ovechkin. He's surpassed them all now.



He's surpassed Bure. Kucherov's peak season is better than anything Bure ever did - and he doesn't do too bad in his 2-4 best season vs Bure's 2-4 best ones either. He's also surpassed Bure for playoffs, and this was before even this year's run.

I like Bure a lot and rate him pretty high - but Kucherov simply has the better resume.



Pretty gigantic gap between Malkin and Fedorov - and I'd argue Kucherov has/will definitely surpass Fedorov. If you absolutely can't get passed the low games played (still 515 only for Kuch) - maybe you still prefer Fedorov due to longevity, but in terms of accomplishments/peak/prime - Kucherov is already better.

Fedorov has a fantastic playoff resume - 183 playoff games, 3 cups. Kucherov has been so good i'm tempted to already put him ahead there too, despite only 106 games. Less runs maybe - but on a per game/per run basis, he's better at his best.

As for Malkin - I think Malkin is a better target for Kucherov. I think Kucherov could surpass Malkin, but it'll take a lot. It's hard to predict what type of consistency/longevity Kucherov will have moving forward, but he needs to remain at this level, or close, for more years to top Malkin.



Patrick Kane is a pretty good comparable. I think I already prefer Kucherov though. He's missing longevity clearly, but:

Best season - give me Kucherov
Best seasons #2-4 - give me Kucherov (closer)
Best individual playoff run - give me Kuch
Best individual playoff runs 2-4 - give me Kuch

Some of the above are probably a bit close - but Kuch just seems to be doing a bit better than Kane did in every area. He needs longevity, but in my opinion he's very likely to surpass Kane, and maybe by a lot.

I think you're massively underrating Fedorov due to point totals and ignoring the fact that his offense was muted due to role in many Detroit years, as well as the fact he was one of the best defensive players in the league, while Kucherov doesn't offer too much else besides his offense and is an average star winger in terms of all-around game.

I know you're a very points-heavy guy, which is fine, but I'm not. Even still, Kucherov also only has 4 seasons as an elite scorer so far anyway (finishes of 1,3,5,7). Fedorov had 4 seasons as a top 10 or borderline scorer as well (finishes of 2, 9, 12, 14) while being elite defensively, plus that longevity. And even looking at peak, while I think Fedorov's '94 gets overrated, he was still better than Kucherov imo who, as noted at the time, was somewhat inflated by secondary PP assists on a stacked PP and put up 8 more points in a league that wasn't actually that different of a scoring environment. I don't think a roughly 15% difference in points makes up for Fedorov's two-way play, especially when Fedorov had more ES and primary points. I think putting Kucherov ahead of playoffs right now is also silly and ignores higher totals relative to the league these days than in the mid to late 90s, as well as overrating points over two-way play. Fedorov had 4 straight years where he could have been the Conn Smythe winner.

If Kucherov puts up a few more big seasons, he'll likely end up ahead, but I don't see the argument today whatsoever, and he's already 28, so it's not a given.

As for Malkin, I wasn't lumping him and Fedodov together, just listing the other two to pass behind Ovechkin.

 

[Bouboumaster]

Will he be able to catch The Great 8?

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Not getting the Malkin talk. Like - Malkin has two AR, one Smythe, and is generally real good, but... that's far from unassailable?

Malkin has been top 10 in points per game ten times in his career (even with sample sizes of over half a season). Kucherov has, what, four top ten finishes?

Malkin six major individual awards, Kuch 3.

Malkin has 3 Cups…you get the idea.

Not saying it’s unassailable, but at 28 I don’t think it’s reasonable to predict Kuch realistically catches him.

 

[filinski77]

Will he be able to catch The Great 8?

Nope. Ovi's peak is way too far out of reach, and his regular season career will be far far greater.

You could say Kucherov ends up with a slightly better playoff resume (still might be a stretch that may or may not happen) - either way, it wouldn't close the gap.

 

[HugeInTheShire]

As a skater I could see him finishing up behind only Ovechkin but if we are going all the Russians, Tretiak is tough to beat as well

 

[Habano]

He’s only ~200 points short of Bure already in his career. He will have no problem surpassing his numbers.

True

 

[Habano]

He's already better than Mogilny, Kovalev, or Bure ever was. He will likely top them in points.

No chance he surpasses Ovi.

He's got a long way to go to surpass Mogilny's numbers

 

[Hockeyholic]

He's got a long way to go to surpass Mogilny's numbers

I'm saying Kucherov at his best is better than Mogilny at his best.

I do think he will match him in points.

 

[Habano]

I'm saying Kucherov at his best is better than Mogilny at his best.

I do think he will match him in points.

Fair enough

 

[bobholly39]

I think you're massively underrating Fedorov due to point totals and ignoring the fact that his offense was muted due to role in many Detroit years, as well as the fact he was one of the best defensive players in the league, while Kucherov doesn't offer too much else besides his offense and is an average star winger in terms of all-around game.

I know you're a very points-heavy guy, which is fine, but I'm not. Even still, Kucherov also only has 4 seasons as an elite scorer so far anyway (finishes of 1,3,5,7). Fedorov had 4 seasons as a top 10 or borderline scorer as well (finishes of 2, 9, 12, 14) while being elite defensively, plus that longevity. And even looking at peak, while I think Fedorov's '94 gets overrated, he was still better than Kucherov imo who, as noted at the time, was somewhat inflated by secondary PP assists on a stacked PP and put up 8 more points in a league that wasn't actually that different of a scoring environment. I don't think a roughly 15% difference in points makes up for Fedorov's two-way play, especially when Fedorov had more ES and primary points. I think putting Kucherov ahead of playoffs right now is also silly and ignores higher totals relative to the league these days than in the mid to late 90s, as well as overrating points over two-way play. Fedorov had 4 straight years where he could have been the Conn Smythe winner.

If Kucherov puts up a few more big seasons, he'll likely end up ahead, but I don't see the argument today whatsoever, and he's already 28, so it's not a given.

As for Malkin, I wasn't lumping him and Fedodov together, just listing the other two to pass behind Ovechkin.

It sounds like a lot of your argument for Fedorov is based on longevity. I don't disagree with you necessarily - Kuch doesn't have a big enough sample size quite yet. Connor McDavid will certainly surpass Joe Sakic for career - but he hasn't yet due to limited track record. A bit the same logic here (though not to that extent).

For playoffs - I agree Fedorov has a tremendous resume there. But I think if Kucherov sees this current run through to a conn smythe (or at least through to a very great individual performance in round 4, even if they lose) - he'd have 2 runs better than any of Fedorov's. He also has some strong playoff performances in previous years as well. So I think his playoff resume is starting to look pretty damn good vs Fedorov - you can still give Fedorov the edge if you want, but I'd be tempted not to.

Peak - I agree with you, 1994 gets overrated, but is still strong. I do prefer Kucherov's 2019 season. Some may disagree. Kucherov also has the best 3 seasons outside of the very best one vs Fedorov in my opinion. Not a huge gap, but it is a gap.

So - Kucherov = higher caliber player than Fedorov. You probably need some more longevity/more prime to place him ahead, but to me it feels like it's a shoe-in it's going to happen. Maybe Kucherov falls off a cliff and it doesn't happen, but that seems unlikely.

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

He's not even the best Russian on his own team...

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Personally, I think he would need a Lidstrom type back half of his career to pass OV. Lol @ OV not being the greatest Russian of all time...

OV's first 515 games he had no cup.

PPG - 1.26 to 1.06
Goals - 318 to 221
Harts (top 5) - 1/1/2 to 1
Lindsay (top 5) - 1/1/1 to 1
Ross - 1 to 1
Rockets - 2 to 0
1-AS - 4 to 2
Calder - 1 to 0

All of the above is OV to Kucherov. So Kucherov basically has the cup, and may get a Conn Smythe this year.

Note OV's first 515 games end at Jan 10, 2012. 2012-13 season he won another Hart and Rocket.

OV was a lindsay finalist in 05/06 so it's 4x finalist in his first 515 GP. He was also 5x 1st AST in his first 5 seasons (2nd AST in 10/11 too).

 

[Voight]

For Russians who only played in the NHL, I see nor eason why he can't surpass Malkin for #2 behind Ovechkin.

But while hes in the midst of an amazing 5 year stretch, he has a loooong way to go before he surpasses #8.