Do NHL fans overrate the importance of 'depth'?

[SeanMoneyHands]

Cups are won by playing a 4 line game and the bottom 6 has to play a significant role throughout the playoffs. Look at all the cup champs over the last 20 years, all rolled 4 lines. Bottom 6 all stepped up.

 

[Artemi Panarin]

Cups are won by playing a 4 line game and the bottom 6 has to play a significant role throughout the playoffs. Look at all the cup champs over the last 20 years, all rolled 4 lines. Bottom 6 all stepped up.

This reality may be a tough pill to swallow for certain playoff teams.

Spoiler

 

[Crazy Cizikas]

It's a common refrain when the stars we love and admire fall out of the playoffs early.

'Oh, well, he/they simply didn't have the support around him to succeed. If only the bottom 6 or 4-through-6 defensemen had been better, they surely would have had the time/space necessary to overcome.'

At what point is it BS rationalization to let star players off the hook for simply failing to perform or being outperformed by the best players on the other team?

Stars failing and the team lacking depth are not mutually exclusive reasons for failure.

 

[SeanMoneyHands]

This reality may be a tough pill to swallow for certain playoff teams.

Spoiler

Are you saying that the Oilers are a 4 line team?

 

[KovalchukFistPump]

Hilarious post considering OP's avatar.

Those Hawks teams between 2009-2015 were incredibly deep and then fell to shambles after numberous cap casualties.

The Hawks teams consistently traded away good role players for picks and then replaced them with gems. They're a poster boy of paying for your core and then filling out the rest of the parts, which the Leafs have followed to much less success.

 

[onetweasy]

It's a common refrain when the stars we love and admire fall out of the playoffs early.

'Oh, well, he/they simply didn't have the support around him to succeed. If only the bottom 6 or 4-through-6 defensemen had been better, they surely would have had the time/space necessary to overcome.'

At what point is it BS rationalization to let star players off the hook for simply failing to perform or being outperformed by the best players on the other team?

This is what NHL has mastered with their approach to reffing.

How to make stars look average while providing less skilled players an opportunity to leverage the rulebook to gain an advantage.

It’s the only professional sport that seems to want to market itself as the ultimate team game Vs star power and its why they have 800k watching playoff games across the US for round 2 playoff games.

 

[Ghetty Green]

Actually, its the exact opposite.

Teams like the Leafs get touted as contenders yet they lack quality depth in all 3 positions. In my 36 years of watching hockey I dont think I've ever seen a cup winner WITHOUT quality depth (93 Habs are closest)

 

[Gregor Samsa]

You disagree that the Colorado Avalanche stars outperformed the Oilers stars?

Stat sheet says otherwise

 

[jackjohnson]

It's a common refrain when the stars we love and admire fall out of the playoffs early.

'Oh, well, he/they simply didn't have the support around him to succeed. If only the bottom 6 or 4-through-6 defensemen had been better, they surely would have had the time/space necessary to overcome.'

At what point is it BS rationalization to let star players off the hook for simply failing to perform or being outperformed by the best players on the other team?

So you mean Canucks can be cup contenders with their current team? We have Pettersson, Miller as top 2 centers, Hughes as number 1D and Demko as number 1 gaolie....so no need for any depth lol

The thread is just pretty dumb when it questions if you need depth to win games when some teams couldn't make playoffs due to lack of depth. Not sure what the point of this thread is. It's like saying do humans need oxygen to breath??

 

[mkatcherin00]

No, look at Toronto. Their depth have been the only people doing anything against FLA until Nylander and marner finally chipped in after 3 games of nothing.

 

[Nemesis Prime]

Yes.

Here your depth players could score all night one game and nerds would criticize that their big guys aren't scoring. The next night your top guys are the only ones on the scoresheet and then they criticize the lack of depth.

 

[SmytheKing]

How does this contradict my position. The Edmonton Oilers won the series where McDavid and Draisaitl were the top scorers. They lost the series where Makar outscored both, and Rantanen and Landescog tied Drai, who himself had zero goals. This was a simple matter of stars out-performing stars.

Did you just start this thread arguing that depth is overrated and then, not even a full page later, suggest that the reason Colorado beat Edmonton last year is because their stars (of which, there are apparently at least 4) performed better than a team with fewer starts thereby suggesting that the reason Colorado won was because they had more depth than Edmonton?

I sure hope that's not what happened.

 

[Umingmak]

The Seattle Kraken are tied after 4 games in the second round of the playoffs despite having significantly less talent on their roster than either of their opponents.

The Kraken are single-handedly proving the importance of depth.

 

[JFedol]

Yes, when you have gamebreakers who are especially centres (lol) and are scary elite playoff performers who can tilt the ice at a disgusting level, no amount of "depth" will save your sorry ass. Players like McDavid + Draisaitl are a guaranteed 1/2 playoff series win every year against any type of depth or competition just like how Peak Crosby/Malkin were in their prime. We just saw McDavid alone will Edmonton back from a 3-0 in the Finals just based off him going completely crazy in games 4 and 5. The cats are lucky Drai was hobbling, because I can only imagine what type of damage he would've done if he was healthy. And as much of people like to talk about Kessel being the perfect complementary player on the third line for those back to back Pens teams, the only reason why Pittsburgh didn't win more cups from 2011-2014 was because of Sid and Geno getting injured and Fleury shitting the bed to an astronomical level during those years. I seriously don't think a hypothetical Pens team without Phil even still loses in 2016 and 2017. 87/71 would still find a way to get it done.

SIDE NOTE: But the more I think about it, the Pens realistically should've been the TEAM and a dynasty of the cap era with both healthy Sid and Geno, this team honestly could've won at least 5-8 cups and maybe even more if Rutherford wasn't a dumbass in 2018 with the chase of truculence. The fatigue would cave in eventually, but there both built different. It's a shame.

I'll give another example. Roy/Forsberg/Sakic were known to get dominated by Detroit possession wise back in their playoff battles throughout that legendary rivalry but they were still collectively better than half of Detroit's team and could easily take over a series when needed. Game 7 in 2002 was a wet egg, but mythical lores like Forsberg's 27pt run after sitting out the entire season and his back-breaking silencing game 5 OT win to give Colorado a 3-2 series lead in game 5 are just a testament to how scary a superstar can be in clutch moments against a deeper team that is LOADED with depth. That Wings team had Yzerman, Lidstrom and Fedorov but still, that 3 head monster trio combined were just players who straight up needed 1 chance to capitalize on you.

Depth can take you far, but It doesn't matter in the slightest when those said superstars on the other team decide to lock in and take over. I've seen it firsthand as a Flames fan, Mackinnon in 2019, McDavid and Drai in 2022 lol to come to the conclusion that Depth is OVERRATED.

I would take STAR POWER over depth any f***ing day.

 

[sena]

Yes, when you have gamebreakers who are especially centres (lol) and are scary elite playoff performers who can tilt the ice at a disgusting level, no amount of "depth" will save your sorry ass. Players like McDavid + Draisaitl are a guaranteed 1/2 playoff series win every year against any type of depth or competition just like how Peak Crosby/Malkin were in their prime. We just saw McDavid alone will Edmonton back from a 3-0 in the Finals just based off him going completely crazy in games 4 and 5. The cats are lucky Drai was hobbling, because I can only imagine what type of damage he would've done if he was healthy. And as much of people like to talk about Kessel being the perfect complementary player on the third line for those back to back Pens teams, the only reason why Pittsburgh didn't win more cups from 2011-2014 was because of Sid and Geno getting injured and Fleury shitting the bed to an astronomical level during those years. I seriously don't think a hypothetical Pens team without Phil even still loses in 2016 and 2017. 87/71 would still find a way to get it done.

SIDE NOTE: But the more I think about it, the Pens realistically should've been the TEAM and a dynasty of the cap era with both healthy Sid and Geno, this team honestly could've won at least 5-8 cups and maybe even more if Rutherford wasn't a dumbass in 2018 with the chase of truculence. The fatigue would cave in eventually, but there both built different. It's a shame.

I'll give another example. Roy/Forsberg/Sakic were known to get dominated by Detroit possession wise back in their playoff battles throughout that legendary rivalry but they were still collectively better than half of Detroit's team and could easily take over a series when needed. Game 7 in 2002 was a wet egg, but mythical lores like Forsberg's 27pt run after sitting out the entire season and his back-breaking silencing game 5 OT win to give Colorado a 3-2 series lead in game 5 are just a testament to how scary a superstar can be in clutch moments against a deeper team that is LOADED with depth. That Wings team had Yzerman, Lidstrom and Fedorov but still, that 3 head monster trio combined were just players who straight up needed 1 chance to capitalize on you.

Depth can take you far, but It doesn't matter in the slightest when those said superstars on the other team decide to lock in and take over. I've seen it firsthand as a Flames fan, Mackinnon in 2019, McDavid and Drai in 2022 lol to come to the conclusion that Depth is OVERRATED.

I would take STAR POWER over depth any f***ing day.

The myth of Mcdavids finals are a lie. He was invisible for the first 3 games, In game 4 the oilers depth put them up 3-1 then Mcdavid racked up a bunch of the most worthless points in history
game 5 he showed up and contributed to the win but again the depth was huge in that game and games 6 and 7 he was a no show again.

 

[Howboutthempanthers]

You need depth, yes. But you need good structure to take advantage of it. If you have bad structure, you'll just have a lot of players playing bad.

 

[ClydeLee]

Yes, when you have gamebreakers who are especially centres (lol) and are scary elite playoff performers who can tilt the ice at a disgusting level, no amount of "depth" will save your sorry ass. Players like McDavid + Draisaitl are a guaranteed 1/2 playoff series win every year against any type of depth or competition just like how Peak Crosby/Malkin were in their prime. We just saw McDavid alone will Edmonton back from a 3-0 in the Finals just based off him going completely crazy in games 4 and 5. The cats are lucky Drai was hobbling, because I can only imagine what type of damage he would've done if he was healthy. And as much of people like to talk about Kessel being the perfect complementary player on the third line for those back to back Pens teams, the only reason why Pittsburgh didn't win more cups from 2011-2014 was because of Sid and Geno getting injured and Fleury shitting the bed to an astronomical level during those years. I seriously don't think a hypothetical Pens team without Phil even still loses in 2016 and 2017. 87/71 would still find a way to get it done.

SIDE NOTE: But the more I think about it, the Pens realistically should've been the TEAM and a dynasty of the cap era with both healthy Sid and Geno, this team honestly could've won at least 5-8 cups and maybe even more if Rutherford wasn't a dumbass in 2018 with the chase of truculence. The fatigue would cave in eventually, but there both built different. It's a shame.

I'll give another example. Roy/Forsberg/Sakic were known to get dominated by Detroit possession wise back in their playoff battles throughout that legendary rivalry but they were still collectively better than half of Detroit's team and could easily take over a series when needed. Game 7 in 2002 was a wet egg, but mythical lores like Forsberg's 27pt run after sitting out the entire season and his back-breaking silencing game 5 OT win to give Colorado a 3-2 series lead in game 5 are just a testament to how scary a superstar can be in clutch moments against a deeper team that is LOADED with depth. That Wings team had Yzerman, Lidstrom and Fedorov but still, that 3 head monster trio combined were just players who straight up needed 1 chance to capitalize on you.

Depth can take you far, but It doesn't matter in the slightest when those said superstars on the other team decide to lock in and take over. I've seen it firsthand as a Flames fan, Mackinnon in 2019, McDavid and Drai in 2022 lol to come to the conclusion that Depth is OVERRATED.

I would take STAR POWER over depth any f***ing day.

I dont get these it's like viewed as a match-up of a team with star power vs depth.

It's a question of does the team actually need depth with the star power to win. And some people to no success somehow think depth doesn't matter.

is your takeaway that last year for the Oilers McDavid and Drai are significantly better than they were the past 5 years?

If Crosby and Malkin starpower was enough to guarantee 1/2 playoff round wins a year, why did they not for years? How is Rutherford to blame for their fall if starpower is enough? The question of focus with depth being overrated or underrated is why did they win in 16/17 and no other years.

Some say the stars didn't shine vs some say it's the team had no depth the losing years.

 

[Pablo El Perro]

No

 

[Martin Skoula]

I think the issue is people conflate “having depth” as being the same thing as “spending a lot on 3rd liners”. Your Joel Ward/Pisani legendary depth runs almost never happen twice for the same grinder, but by that point he’s already getting paid twice as much as he’s worth for riding a hot shooting% for 20 games.

Florida’s depth looks good in retrospect knowing they eventually win, but if you describe that depth as what they were when Florida acquired them you’re talking about 2 waiver wire guys (Forsling, Verhaeghe), a bought out reclamation project (OEL), and a couple younger reclamation projects in Reinhart and Bennett. The whole thing is finding these guys before they’re considered elite depth in retrospect and paid accordingly.

 

[Pablo El Perro]

I think the issue is people conflate “having depth” as being the same thing as “spending a lot on 3rd liners”. Your Joel Ward/Pisani legendary depth runs almost never happen twice for the same grinder, but by that point he’s already getting paid twice as much as he’s worth for riding a hot shooting% for 20 games.

Florida’s depth looks good in retrospect knowing they eventually win, but if you describe that depth as what they were when Florida acquired them you’re talking about 2 waiver wire guys (Forsling, Verhaeghe), a bought out reclamation project (OEL), and a couple younger reclamation projects in Reinhart and Bennett. The whole thing is finding these guys before they’re considered elite depth in retrospect and paid accordingly.

Verhaeghe and Forsling were better than expected pickups, but everyone knew Bennett, Reino, and OEL were just underutilized and overpayed in OEL's case.

 

[JFedol]

watch Edmonton slowly destroy the theory of depth

They've been destroying it for decades, it's kind of crazy how some people really don't realize the fact that's the entire history of both Pittsburgh and Edmonton, Star player driven franchises who's players were collectively better than 90% of the teams in the entire f***ing league during their respective eras LMAO. Depth be damned, and it should be expected that a random person will come out of the woodworks and mention the infamous HBK line but Pittsburgh realistically didn't even need that line if it wasn't for Fleury's dogshit playoff performances. Sid + Malkin + Letang were a 7-8 cup winning core and It's genuinely crazy how Crosby/Malkin alone didn't end up with 6-7 cups after 2019. Peak Crosby without injuries is a guaranteed cup in both 2011, 2012, and 2013 lmao.

Another lowkey sad part is that some of these teams were robbed from stupid mistakes from management, Gretzky/Messier/Kurri/Anderson/Coffey were a guaranteed 11 cup core the same way Lemieux/Jagr/Coffey would've been running the east for all years in the 90s IMO if wasn't for injuries and health reasons. Most teams in the league are legitimately just background noise for the superstar players ones, the fans of other teams that really have the audacity to think there teams stand a chance come playoff time is hilarious, and there doing the right thing by obviously cheering their team but still lol

I wish NHL fans would realize how little depth plays a factor, if AT ALL, The NHL is 100% like the NBA in a sense, STAR POWER really does shit all over depth in like 99% of all situations, we've seen time and time again how a bunch of teams like the 90s Avs, 10s Pens and right now the 2020s Oilers (it's going to happen) just decide to win cups because they have the best player in the league who is more dominant, better, clutch, hungrier etc

Once they LOCK IN and have health on their side, it's practically over.

The miracle cup runs that you hear about were all because of the GOAT teams simply just choking.

 

[wetcoast]

You need depth to win . It's really not a complicated concept, in fact its pretty simple. Star players don't play the whole game its not bball

Pretty much this and all one has to do is go look at every SC winner where there are some unsung heroes that score key goals and outperform and that's usually the difference.

I learned this as a kid those great NYI teams had Bossy, Potvin and Trottier but their depth was deadly and it shows in the player states especially at ES.

John Tonelli had the most ES points from that dynasty.

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[Matty Sundin]

Pretty much all the recent cup winners had depth

 

[north21]

Is there even a team that made a cup final that didn't have depth? You simply can't survive without it. Even when Cinderella teams go on a run their depth guys get hot and help get them there.