Do any of the salary cap champs beat any of the pre-cap champs (90-04)

[SnowblindNYR]

I figured I'd start from the post-Gretzky Oilers era. I know that it was the Oilers that won in 1990 but that was obviously without Gretzky.

There were some really good cap teams like 08 Red Wings, 10 Hawks, 16 Pens, and 22 Avs. But did they look better because they were in a cap league?

I'm assuming a popular choice to lose to post-cap teams would be the 93 Habs. Maybe 95 Devils since they didn't have that amazing of a regular season, but they had Brodeur and a dominant playoff run. Any other teams?

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[Brodeur]

Just my opinion, but I feel like the 2003 Devils were weakest of our three Cup teams. Mix in Joe Nieuwendyk missing the Finals with a back injury and our forward group was in rough shape. Probably a little fortunate that Anaheim had to wait 11 days and got a bit cold.

1994-95 team didn't have the best regular season but the core of the team was still there from 1993-94 when they quietly were the 2nd highest scoring team in the league. Whereas the 2002-03 Devils were the stereotype of having just enough offense to get by that often gets associated with New Jersey that decade. It was rough watching them lead the league in scoring in 2000-01 with the #1PP to having the #30PP in 2002-03.

In the 2003 Finals, the Devils cycled in Jiri Bicek and eventually Mike Rupp in place of Nieuwendyk (Rupp would get elevated from 4th line to 2nd line for Game 7). Lines looked something like:

Elias-Gomez-Marshall
Friesen-Brylin-Langenbrunner
Pandolfo-Madden-Gionta
Bicek/Rupp-Rheaume-Stevenson
injured: Nieuwendyk

Stevens-Rafalski
White-Niedermayer
Daneyko/Tverdovsky-Albelin

Brodeur-Schwab

Probably a few post-cap Cup teams I would bet on to win. Other factors were that Elias/Gomez didn't really have chemistry that entire year but would hit their strides the following season.

One other interesting (at least for me) detail would be Rafalski being the only RHD on our roster. In that series, I think 12 of the 13 D for the Ducks/Devils were lefties which you wouldn't see today.

 

[Michael Farkas]

The 2008 Red Wings could have gone toe to toe with a fair number of pre-cap teams, for my money...

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Just my opinion, but I feel like the 2003 Devils were weakest of our three Cup teams. Mix in Joe Nieuwendyk missing the Finals with a back injury and our forward group was in rough shape. Probably a little fortunate that Anaheim had to wait 11 days and got a bit cold.

1994-95 team didn't have the best regular season but the core of the team was still there from 1993-94 when they quietly were the 2nd highest scoring team in the league. Whereas the 2002-03 Devils were the stereotype of having just enough offense to get by that often gets associated with New Jersey that decade. It was rough watching them lead the league in scoring in 2000-01 with the #1PP to having the #30PP in 2002-03.

In the 2003 Finals, the Devils cycled in Jiri Bicek and eventually Mike Rupp in place of Nieuwendyk (Rupp would get elevated from 4th line to 2nd line for Game 7). Lines looked something like:

Elias-Gomez-Marshall
Friesen-Brylin-Langenbrunner
Pandolfo-Madden-Gionta
Bicek/Rupp-Rheaume-Stevenson
injured: Nieuwendyk

Stevens-Rafalski
White-Niedermayer
Daneyko/Tverdovsky-Albelin

Brodeur-Schwab

Probably a few post-cap Cup teams I would bet on to win. Other factors were that Elias/Gomez didn't really have chemistry that entire year but would hit their strides the following season.

One other interesting (at least for me) detail would be Rafalski being the only RHD on our roster. In that series, I think 12 of the 13 D for the Ducks/Devils were lefties which you wouldn't see today.

Was White always a top 4 D-man? I always felt like he was a goon and would have figured he'd be a bottom pairing guy on such a strong defensive team.

I do remember not being that impressed by the Devils that year. I don't remember much about the first two series but they beat the Senators who at that point struggled to get out of the first round usually and a very weak Ducks team in the Final. So I guess it's not that surprising they won.

I feel like the 00-01 team that lost to the Avs was much stronger but they faced an all time great team and Brodeur was off. Weird to say as a Rangers fan but I hold a special place in my heart of that 00-01 Devils team because it was during my first season watching hockey. They were the ultimate heel. A team we couldn't beat and after an average start a team that never seemed to lose.

 

[Stephen]

Well, keep in mind not all the pre-cap teams were mega spenders or absolute juggernauts. The 1993 Canadiens, 1995 Devils, 2003 Devils, 2004 Lightning come to mind right away. The 2004 Lightning were definitely a team on the way up but didn't have that top to bottom roster of expensive talent of the Red Wings, Avalanche or even Rangers and Stars teams.

 

[Brodeur]

Was White always a top 4 D-man? I always felt like he was a goon and would have figured he'd be a bottom pairing guy on such a strong defensive team.

At some point in 2001, White got swapped with Daneyko who was understandably aging out. By ice time on the 2003 team:

Stevens (23:05) - Rafalski (23:09)
White (19:41) - Niedermayer (24:30)
Daneyko (15:37) - Tverdovsky (16:48)
Albelin (15:13)

I was excited for Tverdovsky but he just did not fit in. He wasn't far removed from a couple of 50 point seasons. I was shocked when he had no trade value after the season and the Devils ended up not giving him a qualifying offer. Then he didn't get signed in the 2003 offseason before returning (briefly) post-lockout.

I think the 2001 Devils would have easily beaten the 2003 Devils. In a weird way I would totally swap the 2003 Cup for the 2001 Cup. Most people don't remember the 2001 team leading the league in scoring whereas the 2003 Cup reinforced some stereotypes about boring defensive hockey.

Unfortunately Holik/Mogilny left for free agency. Elias/Sykora/Gomez/Rafalski/Madden were all dirt cheap in 2001 but then got hefty raises on their next deals.

 

[Gorskyontario]

Off the top of my head

2004 lightning
2003 devils
1995 devils
1993 habs

In no particular order. Would all be beatable I guess.
91,92 pens, 94 rags, all the detroit/avs/stars cups and the 00 devils were all super teams. 90 oilers was the corpse of a super team, but still a super team

Post lockout I would only have the 07 ducks and 08 wings really up there as close to being super teams. The 08 wings much more than the ducks.

As good as the hawks were(for example since they have the most cups close together with a similar core, I'm aware the pens won 3 aswell but 09 was much different than 16/17), they won 3 cups without a good 2nd line center. I can't see Michal Handzus, or 37 point Brad Richards going toe to toe with Fedorov or Forsberg.


For the much newer teams, especially the lightning it would really depend on whether they were playing with the old rules. I'm not exactly sure how most of these new teams/players would react to Mark Messier in a series. Or even having to play against guys like Derian Hatcher or Ulf Samuelsson.

 

[JianYang]

Cap or no cap, the 2021 lightning were a super team.

 

[jimmysheva]

20 or 21 TBL could beat 04 TBL

 

[MadLuke]

Like some Tampa edition, the 2013 Hawks were an expensive goaltender away to look like the loaded pre-cap team.

Keith-Hjalmarsson-Seabrook-Oduya

Toews-Kane-Hossa-Sharp-Saad-Handzus has a top 6
Bickell-Shaw-Bolland in the bottom 6

.802 in the regular season (short but still), 149 GF (second best) to 97 goals against (best)

 

[LightningStorm]

20 or 21 TBL could beat 04 TBL

Came here to say exactly this. The B2B Bolts cup champs without question beat the 2004 Bolts.

 

[bobholly39]

Any team can beat any team at anytime....So of course - any of the post-cap champs could beat any of the pre-cap chams.

Just look at Detroit 97 or 98....and contrast that to Detroit 1995 getting swept in the finals by NJ or losing in round 1 in 94.

Or Colorado complete powerhouse in late 90s and 96 cup winner...losing in round 1 in 1998.

 

[Michael Farkas]

One of the other factors here, and I think a disadvantage to a lot of the cap-era teams, is the goaltending required to make it...

Re-purposing a post I made a dozen years ago (yeesh...)

90: Ranford/Moog
91: Barrasso/Casey
92: Barrasso vs. Belfour/Hasek
93: Roy/Hrudey
94: Richter/McLean
95: Brodeur/Vernon
96: Roy/Vanbiesbrouck
97: Vernon/Hextall
98: Osgood/Kolzig
99: Belfour/Hasek
2000: Brodeur/Belfour
01: Roy/Brodeur
02: Hasek/Irbe
03: Brodeur/Giguere
04: Khabibulin/Kiprusoff

gave way to...

2006: Ward vs. Roloson/Conklin/Markkanen - Upstart rookie Ward takes Gerber's job (then loses it, Gerber comes back and gets a shutout, then Ward takes back over and Ward wins the Smythe...?) vs. Roloson, a career journeyman who was hot then hurt...I had time for Markkanen back in the day.

2007: Giguere vs. Emery - Giguere, a system goalie, lacking in technical skills (but with good anticipation)...Emery a fringe goalie riding shotgun to an Ottawa team that features a very good defense that gets torn limb from limb in a two or four year stretch by opposing GMs...the amount of goaltender lateral movement in this series was at an all-time low.

2008: Osgood vs. Fleury - Career over-cocky attaboy Osgood plays behind one of the strongest teams (the strongest?) since the lockout, ends up being the only thing that gives the young Pens a chance...young Fleury helps will the team to the Finals, but has never been recognized as elite...

2009 Osgood vs. Fleury - Role reversal, Osgood plays better than in 2008 and loses out...Fleury has a few less bad breaks this time around...either way, a never-was vs. a will-he-ever-be...

2010: Niemi vs. Leighton - Another instance where the weakest link of a team is the goaltending (2007 losers, 2008 winners, 2009 losers same) with Antti Niemi who plays rather poorly throughout the Finals but is out-done in his horrificness by a career minor leaguer in Leighton who puts together a despicable performance and allows such a bad Cup clinching goal that no one on the planet would have guessed it went in until Patrick Kane was halfway down the rink...I'm guessing this will go down as the worst goalie matchup in Finals history, or at least I hope so...

2011: Thomas vs. Luongo - Career journeyman Thomas gets the W despite his best efforts vs. Montreal and Tampa Bay (and really even against Vancouver early in the series...Luongo, much-maligned for his past (though somewhat unjustified), clearly isn't the same goalie since being traded...not a terrible guy to make the Finals though I suppose..

2012: Quick vs. Brodeur - Finally, a decent goalie matchup. Well past his prime Brodeur vs. the young Quick...Kings team steamrolls everyone, Quick doesn't allow any game to get close...Brodeur does all he can, but when your number one defenseman is Marek Zidlicky, well, it's a wonder you won a playoff series at all...

2013: Crawford vs Rask - The very unathletic Crawford, riding the wave of an excellent team. Rask has a lot of talent, and some of the fastest legs going. He's a horrible skater, which limits some of his effectiveness. Boston goes to the Final with two different goalies, gets a Vezina to two different goalies in a three year stretch...reminds you of the mid 80's Flyers a bit.

2014: Quick vs Lundqvist - This is as good as it gets after The Big Sleep.

2015: Crawford vs Bishop/Vasilevskiy - Crawford is uninteresting. Bishop wavered in quality. When he wasn't lazy, he had some upside. It's rare for a goalie that tall to be able to close holes quickly enough. Vasy is a rookie at the time, so that's a big ask...he flashed brilliance, but the Lightning strived hard to protect him too.

2016: Murray vs Jones - As we pull ourselves out of DPE 2.0, these goalies were kind of a product of the time. A couple of goalies who were playing well enough on stronger teams. But as the game evolved, and low-angle shots became normalized, these goalies were ill-equipped to adapt properly. Being tall isn't a skill, and these two goalies leaned on it being so.

2017: Murray/Fleury vs Rinne - Fleury again...much more consistent than he was earlier in his career. Better positioning and a quieter game, but still with the reflexes and athleticism to steal a game - Flower was clearly in the Conn Smythe lead early in the ECF. Then the Pens quickly turn to Murray to finish it off. Rinne was talented, but again, like Bishop had a propensity to let things get through him. I have more time for Rinne than some goalie guys I know, some of them really don't like him.

2018: Holtby vs Fleury - Fleury again...Holtby was a good goalie for a short period of time. I think he got hit with injuries and it unwound pretty quickly on him...but he was excellent in the 2018 run. In fact, he personally deserved a better fate probably before this too. History probably will forget him, but he deserves a lot more credit than that...this was a good matchup from a technical point of view. Probably our best since 2014.

2019: Binnington vs Rask - Rask is Rask, he's a good goalie. Binnington is a really interesting case. Kind of has that Craig Anderson element to him...where he's good for a 45 save shutout or he's got an early shower after giving up 4 on 16. I'm not sure if the numbers hint that at all @Doctor No but that's my feeling. This is another good matchup though. This isn't nearly as bad as what we had to deal with early on.

2020: Vasilevskiy vs Khudobin - Now, obviously, Khudobin seems weird there. And I agree to an extent. I've always really liked Khudobin believe it or not. But not necessarily a guy you want on this stage...but he's not as bad as history will remember. Maybe a bit like Irbe's run in '02. Vasilevskiy is basically the goalie of this mini-generation and that's on merit. He can be totally dominant. Like Hasek in some ways, including the odd propensity to give up a 40 foot wrist shot that comes with some pre-shot lateral movement.

2021: Vasilevskiy vs Price - Technically speaking, this is a historically amazing matchup. Two all-time "A" goalies. No one knows what .421 Montreal was doing in the Final, we'll all be sitting at a bar 10 years from now trying to recall how two Eastern teams were facing off in a Final to begin with...but regardless of how the series went, this is the pinnacle of goaltending. This was our Roy vs Brodeur from 20 years prior.

2022: Kuemper vs Vasilevskiy - Vasy again. Very justified. Kuemper...ok, fine, whatever. He's a guy that plays and he doesn't hurt you or really help you. He's just someone. He's miles better than Francouz, the scrambly backup who went like 6-0 in this playoffs. But still...he was just there.

So anyhow...all that to say there's a notable trough in there of goalies that were not overly talented and not very adaptable. And if we're actually playing these games, there's a bunch of guys pre-lockout that were very talented and very adaptable that would have a distinct advantage. Not to kill the premise of the thread, but just something that has really stuck out to me for a while now...

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Off the top of my head

2004 lightning
2003 devils
1995 devils
1993 habs

In no particular order. Would all be beatable I guess.
91,92 pens, 94 rags, all the detroit/avs/stars cups and the 00 devils were all super teams. 90 oilers was the corpse of a super team, but still a super team

Post lockout I would only have the 07 ducks and 08 wings really up there as close to being super teams. The 08 wings much more than the ducks.

As good as the hawks were(for example since they have the most cups close together with a similar core, I'm aware the pens won 3 aswell but 09 was much different than 16/17), they won 3 cups without a good 2nd line center. I can't see Michal Handzus, or 37 point Brad Richards going toe to toe with Fedorov or Forsberg.


For the much newer teams, especially the lightning it would really depend on whether they were playing with the old rules. I'm not exactly sure how most of these new teams/players would react to Mark Messier in a series. Or even having to play against guys like Derian Hatcher or Ulf Samuelsson.

But how would those guys be against modern speed?

 

[Michael Farkas]

Who said we were playing these games in this era?

Also, since 2016, the defensemen with the 2nd most playoff games played is Ian Cole, 5th most is Ryan McDonagh...they're a combined +28 in that span. Seems like they're handling modern speed just fine.

 

[Gorskyontario]

But how would those guys be against modern speed?

Modern players aren't that much faster then old guys. They just look faster because modern cameras capture footage much better. Hatcher was slow but he was old post lockout so he looked bad, if Luke Schenn had a career post lockout, Hatcher would have been fine.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Yeah definitely, but the top pre-Cap teams were better than the top post-Cap teams. That doesn't mean every pre-Cap champ was better than every post-Cap champ.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Who said we were playing these games in this era?

Also, since 2016, the defensemen with the 2nd most playoff games played is Ian Cole, 5th most is Ryan McDonagh...they're a combined +28 in that span. Seems like they're handling modern speed just fine.

Is that an age thing? Because McDonagh when he was with the Rangers was won of the best skating defensemen in the league.

 

[Brodeur]

Just to expand on an earlier thought, how did the pairings go for various Cup teams? Lefty+righty wasn't as ubiquitous as it is today. The Devils blue line was very lefty dominant which you wouldn't see nowadays (Lou finally adjusted in 2011).

1995:
Stevens (L)-Chambers (L)
Driver (L)-Daneyko (L)
Albelin (L)-Niedermayer (L)
Dean (L)

2000:
Stevens (L) - Rafalski (R)
Daneyko (L) - Niedermayer (L)
White (L) - Malakhov (L)
Bombardir (L)

2003:
Stevens (L) - Rafalski (R)
White (L) - Niedermayer (L)
Daneyko (L) - Tverdovsky (L)
Smehlik (L) - Albelin (L)

Niedermayer continued to play the right side at a high level post-lockout. But I'd wonder how well the 1995 D would have held up. They fell short of a Cup, but here was the Devils 2012 playoff D:

2012:
Greene (L) - Fayne (R)
Salvador (L) - Zidlicky (R)
Volchenkov (L) - Harrold (R)
Tallinder (L) - Larsson (R)

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Just to expand on an earlier thought, how did the pairings go for various Cup teams? Lefty+righty wasn't as ubiquitous as it is today. The Devils blue line was very lefty dominant which you wouldn't see nowadays (Lou finally adjusted in 2011).

1995:
Stevens (L)-Chambers (L)
Driver (L)-Daneyko (L)
Albelin (L)-Niedermayer (L)
Dean (L)

2000:
Stevens (L) - Rafalski (R)
Daneyko (L) - Niedermayer (L)
White (L) - Malakhov (L)
Bombardir (L)

2003:
Stevens (L) - Rafalski (R)
White (L) - Niedermayer (L)
Daneyko (L) - Tverdovsky (L)
Smehlik (L) - Albelin (L)

Niedermayer continued to play the right side at a high level post-lockout. But I'd wonder how well the 1995 D would have held up. They fell short of a Cup, but here was the Devils 2012 playoff D:

2012:
Greene (L) - Fayne (R)
Salvador (L) - Zidlicky (R)
Volchenkov (L) - Harrold (R)
Tallinder (L) - Larsson (R)

That 2012 defense does not look that great to me. Surprised that team went that far.

 

[JackSlater]

It's not controversial to say that the earlier era teams were generally better, but I'll take the best post-cap team, the 2008 Red Wings (I'm biased but that doesn't mean I'm wrong) over several of them. 2021 Tampa Bay, 2022 Colorado, and some of the Chicago teams would also be very dangerous, among others.

The biggest advantage I see for the pre-cap teams is depth. 2013 Chicago would have been a lot scarier if it could have kept the players from 2010 and maybe even added another quality centre with no cap considerations. So if we're talking about these teams taking each other on in a series then I'd like the post-cap teams a little more, even if they would still generally not be favourites. If they had to go through the playoff gauntlet I'd like the pre-cap teams even more.

 

[The Macho King]

Is that an age thing? Because McDonagh when he was with the Rangers was won of the best skating defensemen in the league.

He was still a very good skater in Tampa, too.

 

[The Macho King]

Off the top of my head

2004 lightning
2003 devils
1995 devils
1993 habs

In no particular order. Would all be beatable I guess.
91,92 pens, 94 rags, all the detroit/avs/stars cups and the 00 devils were all super teams. 90 oilers was the corpse of a super team, but still a super team

Post lockout I would only have the 07 ducks and 08 wings really up there as close to being super teams. The 08 wings much more than the ducks.

As good as the hawks were(for example since they have the most cups close together with a similar core, I'm aware the pens won 3 aswell but 09 was much different than 16/17), they won 3 cups without a good 2nd line center. I can't see Michal Handzus, or 37 point Brad Richards going toe to toe with Fedorov or Forsberg.


For the much newer teams, especially the lightning it would really depend on whether they were playing with the old rules. I'm not exactly sure how most of these new teams/players would react to Mark Messier in a series. Or even having to play against guys like Derian Hatcher or Ulf Samuelsson.

It's so weird hearing a ton of complaints about how dirty the Lightning were during those years and now seeing them as the "especially" when it comes to dealing with tight checking.

Obviously on the curve it's "modern", but if you look at the paths Tampa had to take to win the Cup, they played against some of the more physical teams in the league to get there (Islanders x2, Stars and Montreal were both built big, Bruins, Columbus at the time, and Florida). And outside of maybe the Islanders, I think Tampa was more physical than all of them. If you get past Kucherov, Point, Stamkos - Tampa's forwards tended to be nasty f***ers (and even then Kucherov certainly has a greasiness even if he isn't a physical force).

 

[WarriorofTime]

It's so weird hearing a ton of complaints about how dirty the Lightning were during those years and now seeing them as the "especially" when it comes to dealing with tight checking.

Obviously on the curve it's "modern", but if you look at the paths Tampa had to take to win the Cup, they played against some of the more physical teams in the league to get there (Islanders x2, Stars and Montreal were both built big, Bruins, Columbus at the time, and Florida). And outside of maybe the Islanders, I think Tampa was more physical than all of them. If you get past Kucherov, Point, Stamkos - Tampa's forwards tended to be nasty f***ers (and even then Kucherov certainly has a greasiness even if he isn't a physical force).

That was the big change when Yzerman left to get them over the hump compared to the prior years. They really found the right support pieces to play that greasy game.

 

[Gorskyontario]

the more physical teams in the league to get there (Islanders x2, Stars and Montreal were both built big, Bruins, Columbus at the time, and Florida). And outside of maybe the Islanders, I think Tampa was more physical than all of them.

Scott Stevens alone was more physical than all those teams combined.