dino ciccarelli vs alex mogilny

[jkrx]

Agreed, career wise it is Dino

In what way is Dinos career better than Mogilnys?

 

[begbeee]

I think it is easy - Mogilnyj.
Mogilnyj has better individual and team achievments and a much more talent than Dino.
Many of users in other threads go against compilers, but when you are going here with Dino and saying his career is better than Mogilnyjs, you are nothing more than a fan of compiling.

 

[JackSlater]

A good case could be made for either player having the superior career. In terms of who was simply the better player, I would have to say that it's clearly Mogilny. Mogilny on his best day is quite a bit better than Ciccarelli on his best day.

 

[BraveCanadian]

In what way is Dinos career better than Mogilnys?

Its pretty easy.

Dino worked hard to have the career he had.

Mogilny coasted through his career except in contract years.

A player of Mogilny's talent should have buried a guy like Dino and we shouldn't even have been able to debate this.. but because we are it exposes the fact that Mogilny wasted most of his talent early in his career.. and admittedly near the end he was having injury problems but by then he was in the twilight anyways.

I'd take Dino unless I was able to keep Mogilny on one year contracts his whole career.

 

[revolverjgw]

Give me Dino. Mogilny brought more offense, but he didn't even always bring that. I'd feel better with a guy like Dino bringing his mix of goals and grit every game, especially in the playoffs where you need sauce. Yes I know Mogilny won a Cup and Dino didn't, but he was just a passenger. 39 playoff goals in 124 games, weak.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Its pretty easy.

Dino worked hard to have the career he had.

Mogilny coasted through his career except in contract years.

A player of Mogilny's talent should have buried a guy like Dino and we shouldn't even have been able to debate this.. but because we are it exposes the fact that Mogilny wasted most of his talent early in his career.. and admittedly near the end he was having injury problems but by then he was in the twilight anyways.

I'd take Dino unless I was able to keep Mogilny on one year contracts his whole career.

Wasted? Really? He had 200 goals by the time he was 25. I agree, he could have gotten even more (especially if he hadn't missed so much time early on), but I certainly don't associate the words Mogilny and "coast" when thinking of the Sabres during the first half of the 90s. In fact, I associate break-neck speed sometimes, well, nearly breaking his neck. I could see how there could be some bitter Canucks or Leafs fans out there who might remember it that way, though.

And injuries "near the end"? He missed something like over 60 games in his first 5 seasons, and I don't think it's because he was quick to cash in his sick/personal/vacation days...

990 games, 16 seasons = under 62 games per season. It would take an awful lot of time missed due to injury in one's "twilight" to drop an average that low from the maximum of around 80. The guy was just really unfortunate when it came to nagging injuries that would keep him out for very short stints, but fairly often. Take a look at his injury record SINCE 2001 only:

2007/05/07 Missed all 82 games of the regular season, all 6 games of Round One against the Tampa Bay Lightning and all 5 games of Round Two against the Ottawa Senators (hip injury).
2006/09/23 Hip injury, sidelined indefinitely.
2005/11/23 Missed 4 games (mild concussion).
2005/11/11 Mild concussion, day-to-day.
2005/10/04 Hip injury, day-to-day.
2004/02/19 Missed 40 games (hip surgery).
2004/02/17 Hip surgery, day-to-day.
2003/11/22 Hip injury, sidelined indefinitely.
2003/10/25 Missed 5 games (groin strain).
2003/10/14 Groin strain, sidelined indefinitely.
2003/04/19 Missed Game 4 of Round One against the Philadelphia Flyers.
2003/04/16 Concussion, day-to-day.
2003/04/14 Facial injury, left Monday's game.
2003/03/18 Missed 2 games (personal reasons).
2003/03/13 Personal reasons, day-to-day.
2003/01/29 Missed 2 games (back injury).
2003/01/24 Back injury, day-to-day.
2003/01/21 Missed 2 games (foot injury).
2003/01/17 Foot injury, day-to-day.
2003/01/03 Missed 1 game (back injury).
2002/12/31 Back injury, day-to-day.
2002/11/23 Missed 1 game (neck injury).
2002/11/19 Neck injury, day-to-day.
2002/03/14 Missed 13 games (back injury).
2002/01/30 Back injury, sidelined indefinitely.
2002/01/22 Missed 3 games (back spasms).
2002/01/15 Back spasms, day-to-day.
2001/04/07 Missed 1 game (groin).
2001/04/06 Groin, day-to-day.
2001/02/26 Missed 5 games (abdominal strain).
2001/02/16 Abdominal strain, day-to-day.
2001/02/11 Missed 1 game (neck injury).
2001/02/10 Neck injury, day-to-day.

Now, THAT could all be in what you call his "twilight". Realize that he missed many more games during his first 5, 6 seasons than everything you just read above added together (except, perhaps, the entire season missed part).

 

[BraveCanadian]

Wasted? Really? He had 200 goals by the time he was 25. I agree, he could have gotten even more (especially if he hadn't missed so much time early on), but I certainly don't associate the words Mogilny and "coast" when thinking of the Sabres during the first half of the 90s. In fact, I associate break-neck speed sometimes, well, nearly breaking his neck. I could see how there could be some bitter Canucks or Leafs fans out there who might remember it that way, though.

And injuries "near the end"? He missed something like over 60 games in his first 5 seasons, and I don't think it's because he was quick to cash in his sick/personal/vacation days...

990 games, 16 seasons = under 62 games per season. It would take an awful lot of time missed due to injury in one's "twilight" to drop an average that low from the maximum of around 80. The guy was just really unfortunate when it came to nagging injuries that would keep him out for very short stints, but fairly often. Take a look at his injury record SINCE 2001 only:

2007/05/07 Missed all 82 games of the regular season, all 6 games of Round One against the Tampa Bay Lightning and all 5 games of Round Two against the Ottawa Senators (hip injury).
2006/09/23 Hip injury, sidelined indefinitely.
2005/11/23 Missed 4 games (mild concussion).
2005/11/11 Mild concussion, day-to-day.
2005/10/04 Hip injury, day-to-day.
2004/02/19 Missed 40 games (hip surgery).
2004/02/17 Hip surgery, day-to-day.
2003/11/22 Hip injury, sidelined indefinitely.
2003/10/25 Missed 5 games (groin strain).
2003/10/14 Groin strain, sidelined indefinitely.
2003/04/19 Missed Game 4 of Round One against the Philadelphia Flyers.
2003/04/16 Concussion, day-to-day.
2003/04/14 Facial injury, left Monday's game.
2003/03/18 Missed 2 games (personal reasons).
2003/03/13 Personal reasons, day-to-day.
2003/01/29 Missed 2 games (back injury).
2003/01/24 Back injury, day-to-day.
2003/01/21 Missed 2 games (foot injury).
2003/01/17 Foot injury, day-to-day.
2003/01/03 Missed 1 game (back injury).
2002/12/31 Back injury, day-to-day.
2002/11/23 Missed 1 game (neck injury).
2002/11/19 Neck injury, day-to-day.
2002/03/14 Missed 13 games (back injury).
2002/01/30 Back injury, sidelined indefinitely.
2002/01/22 Missed 3 games (back spasms).
2002/01/15 Back spasms, day-to-day.
2001/04/07 Missed 1 game (groin).
2001/04/06 Groin, day-to-day.
2001/02/26 Missed 5 games (abdominal strain).
2001/02/16 Abdominal strain, day-to-day.
2001/02/11 Missed 1 game (neck injury).
2001/02/10 Neck injury, day-to-day.

Now, THAT could all be in what you call his "twilight". Realize that he missed many more games during his first 5, 6 seasons than everything you just read above added together (except, perhaps, the entire season missed part).

Obviously I'm talking about his hip which bothered him for years and was degenerative. But thanks for the exhaustive list.

And yes he had 200 goals by 25 but the problem with that is 76 were in one season. When you go from 39 goals to 76 and then back to 32 in three seasons something doesn't add up. Even if he did miss 10 extra games in those 30 goal seasons.

Admittedly his and Selanne's 76 goal seasons were total flukes but Mogilny could have been a legitimate 50 goal threat each year if he brought it every night. The problem is he didn't.

Also I actually really enjoyed watching him as a Leaf but by then the hip was really starting to slow him down.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Obviously I'm talking about his hip which bothered him for years and was degenerative. But thanks for the exhaustive list.

And yes he had 200 goals by 25 but the problem with that is 76 were in one season. When you go from 39 goals to 76 and then back to 32 in three seasons something doesn't add up. Even if he did miss 10 extra games in those 30 goal seasons.

Admittedly his and Selanne's 76 goal seasons were total flukes but Mogilny could have been a legitimate 50 goal threat each year if he brought it every night. The problem is he didn't.

Also I actually really enjoyed watching him as a Leaf but by then the hip was really starting to slow him down.

It was more than just 10. It was 18 and 13 each season before the 76 (80 game seasons), and 18 the year after (84 game season in '93/94). I'm sure I don't NEED to do the simple math for anyone here, but that's 23%, 16%, and 21% respectively. Extrapolating (which is always fun and accurate...), and without even accounting for the fact that injuries/recovery slow a player down (some irreversibly), those could have been a 37 goal sophomore season, a 45 goal season following, (76 goal season), and a 40 goal season based solely on his per game numbers. Perhaps not much more "impressive", but certainly more indicative of the "potential" than what we see looking at hockeyreference in hindsight.

That's fairly realistically the calibre of player he was capable of being on those Sabres teams (a less talented Bure who should have had little trouble with at least Gartner-like number compiling), although I agree with you that the talent was definitely there to be a consistent 50 goal threat.

 

[BraveCanadian]

although I agree with you that the talent was definitely there to be a consistent 50 goal threat.

Yes. That is why many people in this thread are saying he wasted it.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Yes. That is why many people in this thread are saying he wasted it.

Those people should temper their use of a word like "wasted" and assigning blame if they truly understand the nature of chronic, nagging injuries. A player may, in fact, choose whether or not to loaf around some games, but he can't simply choose to make his body do anything it's not capable of anymore.

 

[sr edler]

an already stacked detroit doesn't win any cups until they replaced ciccarelli with a better version of him, shanahan

pretty much, red wings dumped ciccarelli for a tampa conditional, then brought in shanahan for primeau|coffey and won the cup

i also think the later mogilny who outscored sundin in toronto while displaying a surprisingly good two-way game was a more impactful player than ciccarelli ever really was

also this

 

[Rhiessan71]

Those people should temper their use of a word like "wasted" and assigning blame if they truly understand the nature of chronic, nagging injuries. A player may, in fact, choose whether or not to loaf around some games, but he can't simply choose to make his body do anything it's not capable of anymore.

While I did pick Alex, I can tell right now that using chronic, nagging injuries as an excuse for him is not going to get you far in this case.
I guarantee you Dino had the longer and more assorted list of injuries over the years.
I'd also be willing to bet that Dino took more punishment in 2 years than Alex did for his whole career.

I remember watching a game where Dino got crosschecked hard 10-15 times in the span of just a single powerplay heh.

 

[jkrx]

While I did pick Alex, I can tell right now that using chronic, nagging injuries as an excuse for him is not going to get you far in this case.
I guarantee you Dino had the longer and more assorted list of injuries over the years.
I'd also be willing to bet that Dino took more punishment in 2 years than Alex did for his whole career.

I remember watching a game where Dino got crosschecked hard 10-15 times in the span of just a single powerplay heh.

You are right that Dino did suffer during his career but he didn't rely on his skating or speed as Mogilny did. That hip injury was devastating to a player like that.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

You are right that Dino did suffer during his career but he didn't rely on his skating or speed as Mogilny did. That hip injury was devastating to a player like that.

Exactly. It has to be that much harder (as a speed/skill player like Mogilny) to realize your full potential when accumulate enough injuries over your first 5 seasons to miss over 70 games. Gaborik (who some might think should be a 50 goal scorer by now in his career) is facing similar challenges, but even HE hasn't accumulated the damage Mogilny seems to have at this point. I expect that, looking back one day, I'll probably take Gaborik over Ciccarelli, too (and yet, right now, their career numbers are absolutely nowhere close).

I saw the perennial 50 goal talent, but I understand that a lot of circumstances somewhat conspired against him along the way. Maybe taking a few games off was one, perhaps injuries another. Perhaps part of it was also playing in his prime on a team that boasted centre "depth" of Ridley, Linden, Sillinger one season, then a 37 year old Messier, 21 year old Dave Scatchard, Mike Sillinger and Petr Zezel the next (things began looking up with the additions of Harry York, Dave Gagner, Brandon Convery, Josh Holden and Darby Hendrickson the year after THAT, of course...).

Even a broken-down and disinterested Mogilny still beats Ciccarelli by a significant margin imo, unless (like I stated earlier) we limit the discussion to strictly career value and carefully avoid topics like "calibre" and "peak", etc.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

my take is, an already stacked detroit doesn't win any cups until they replaced ciccarelli with a better version of him, shanahan. i'd argue that you could also have replaced ciccarelli at various point in his career with kevin stevens, kerr, tocchet, leclair, even tkachuk (playoff choking and all) and achieved better results.

I would have thought this way too.

But then why was Scottie Bowman apparently the biggest advocate for Dino's induction? I actually thought it was a refreshing glimpse into the process when it came out that Bowman gave an impassioned speech advocating Dino's induction.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

I would have thought this way too.

But then why was Scottie Bowman apparently the biggest advocate for Dino's induction? I actually thought it was a refreshing glimpse into the process when it came out that Bowman gave an impassioned speech advocating Dino's induction.

Well, let's get serious for a second. Ciccarelli might be one of the more respected names of the era if you talk to people about hard work, paying the price, and dedication to teammates and the game. There is no reason why Bowman would be above pulling for a "player's player" like Dino.

Doesn't change the exercise in hypotheticals were we to magically substitute him for any of those listed names at any point along the way.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Broken Leg

Obviously I'm talking about his hip which bothered him for years and was degenerative. But thanks for the exhaustive list.

And yes he had 200 goals by 25 but the problem with that is 76 were in one season. When you go from 39 goals to 76 and then back to 32 in three seasons something doesn't add up. Even if he did miss 10 extra games in those 30 goal seasons.

Admittedly his and Selanne's 76 goal seasons were total flukes but Mogilny could have been a legitimate 50 goal threat each year if he brought it every night. The problem is he didn't.

Also I actually really enjoyed watching him as a Leaf but by then the hip was really starting to slow him down.

Severely broken leg in the 1993 playoffs against Montreal took away Alexander Mogilny's quick first step and lateral movement for the rest of his career.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Well, let's get serious for a second. Ciccarelli might be one of the more respected names of the era if you talk to people about hard work, paying the price, and dedication to teammates and the game. There is no reason why Bowman would be above pulling for a "player's player" like Dino.

Doesn't change the exercise in hypotheticals were we to magically substitute him for any of those listed names at any point along the way.

Right.

It's just funny to me that the coach of the team that finally starting winning after dumping Dino for peanuts was his biggest advocate.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Right.

It's just funny to me that the coach of the team that finally starting winning after dumping Dino for peanuts was his biggest advocate.

Well....I think people are forgetting about his rather vigorous off ice activities that had more to do with him being moved throughout his career than his play on the ice heh.

 

[Big Phil]

In what way is Dinos career better than Mogilnys?

Longevity would be the best place to start. Even in Dino's twilight he had 35 goals in a season. Mogilny like we all have claimed was too feast or famine for my liking. I'll even take Gartner's career over Mogilny's. No, Gartner at his best was not Mogilny, but he brought it year in and year out. A lot of it has to do with how reliable a player is. You didn't know what to expect with Mogilny. With Gartner you did. Funny how no one has yet to break the 30 goal a season streak that lasted 15 years. Actually when you think of it, there was never a time when Gartner had any less than 33 goals during that span. In other words, a coach could just as well pencil in a MINIMUM of 35 goals for Gartner come training camp because that is what he brought to the table

 

[GretzkytoKurri9917]

Alex Mogilny

 

[jkrx]

Longevity would be the best place to start. Even in Dino's twilight he had 35 goals in a season. Mogilny like we all have claimed was too feast or famine for my liking. I'll even take Gartner's career over Mogilny's. No, Gartner at his best was not Mogilny, but he brought it year in and year out. A lot of it has to do with how reliable a player is. You didn't know what to expect with Mogilny. With Gartner you did. Funny how no one has yet to break the 30 goal a season streak that lasted 15 years. Actually when you think of it, there was never a time when Gartner had any less than 33 goals during that span. In other words, a coach could just as well pencil in a MINIMUM of 35 goals for Gartner come training camp because that is what he brought to the table

With Mike Gartner I agree but not Dino. You could expect goal for sure but as a coach you would never know when he would meltdown and take a stupid penalty. To me its also pretty telling that in Mogilnys twillight teams still tried to sign him but in Dinos case only bottom feeders aquired him.

 

[Rhiessan71]

With Mike Gartner I agree but not Dino. You could expect goal for sure but as a coach you would never know when he would meltdown and take a stupid penalty. To me its also pretty telling that in Mogilnys twillight teams still tried to sign him but in Dinos case only bottom feeders aquired him.

...or go running naked in the streets

 

[jkrx]

...or go running naked in the streets

Haha, that too.

 

[BobRouse]

I'm biased but I'd take Dynamite Dino every day of the week over Mogilny.

Dino was a cannonball of blood and guts and for a guy his size he scrapped like none other. Full of heart and scored clutch goals.

He was incredible in the playoffs for the Caps almost every year and won at least one series by himself I felt (Devils in 90).

Mogilny has FAR more skill but Dino had FAR more heart.