Did USA overtake Canada as 'The Best Hockey Nation'?

[LarKing]

We've gotta win the final likely vs Canada to be able to claim that.

I will say the US has come a long way the last 10 years. Before it was always a longshot to beat Canada. Now they generally look like they can keep up with them if not outplay them. Canada is missing players but so is the US with the best player not playing in this tourney in Hughes.

 

[TimeZone]

I lean towards yes, but I don't think we will have a certain answer until after the olympics next year.

 

[PromisedLand]

Canadian here:

In recent years and the way things are projected it seems US will overtake Canada in terms of talent and impact players in the future if it hasn't already

Forwards. D-men, Goalies I think US is projecting to be a lot better than current Canadian crop
Forwards:
Canada:
Top Tier: McDavid, MacKinnon;
2nd tier: Marner, Point, (upcoming Bedard)
rest are just avg in grand scheme of things

US:
Top Tier (IMO): Matthews, Eichel, M. Tkachuk, Connor
2nd Tier (IMO): J. Hughes, B. Tkachuk, etc.


D-men:
Canada
Top Tier: Besides Makar I don't think Canada has any bonafide top notch d-men like back in teh day with Pronger, Niedermeyer, etc...

US:
Top Tier: MacAvoy, Hughes, Werenski
2nd Tier: Slavin, Hanifin, Fox*, Faber, L. Hughes, etc...

Goalies:
Canada - For the next 2 to 3 years none in NHL that can be deemed as Top Tier IMO
Top Tier: None IMO
2nd Tier: Basically what you see in this competition

US
Top Tier: Hellebuyck, Oettinger, Swayman
2nd Tier: Lindgren, Knight, Woll (upcoming), etc...


Conclusion: IMO for the next 2 to 3 years given the current rosters/NHL line-up US has a significant edge in international competitions over Canada. I think next Olympics US is probably favorite to win the winter gold assuming healthy rosters. Canadian elite talent is getting gold and currently doesn't have as much elite talent in youth, while US has most of its elite talent concentrates in youth that would sustain for the next 2 to 3 years at least

 

[PromisedLand]

A good barometer for this is the number or percentage of NHL players.

Canada is about 40%. USA is approaching 29%.

So no.

If you did that for a long time it would show the USA is gaining in share while Canadians are losing in share just in terms of counts. When it comes to producing actual elite talent I think US has recently a lot more impactful overall than Canada. McDavid (and to an extent Makar) is a freakin' outlier if you drop him from the sample US is producing more elite talent that Canada in recent years IMO

 

[bdub24]

Lemme put it this way

If Canada wins tomorrow

And

USA beats Canada Thursday

Then

I’ll begin to understand the feeling Montreal fans have of pride in cups won against only 5 teams….

 

[Peiskos]

How can you possibly overtake Canada when the medal haul is literally like comparing the Yankees the to the Blue Jays?

Let me frame it this way, if the Blue Jays win the World Series next year, will they have overtaken the Yankees as the most successful baseball team? obviously not.

Americans have a way of jumping the gun with these things, may I remind you what happened in 2010? US beats Canada 5-3 in the preliminary games, Canada goes on to win gold in the rematch.

The tournament is not over, and no even if the US does win this tournament, that doesn't mean they've suddenly overtaken Canada, it will take years of proven results and years of gold medal hauls where there is a clear difference to make such a claim.

US for example hasn't even won the IIHF Worlds since the 1930's, Canada wins that every few years.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

US has never been closer....and with the population size they have, they will overtake Canada at some point...you can't deny the numbers since they have 10 times the population

I'm actually surprised it took this long to compete with Canada, given how long hockey has been in the US in the O6 era

 

[Rob Brown]

The US has certainly overtaken every other country in terms of the number of random people on the internet who suddenly act like they know a lot about hockey despite ignoring it until the end of the game last night.

 

[Midnight Judges]

If you did that for a long time it would show the USA is gaining in share while Canadians are losing in share just in terms of counts. When it comes to producing actual elite talent I think US has recently a lot more impactful overall than Canada. McDavid (and to an extent Makar) is a freakin' outlier if you drop him from the sample US is producing more elite talent that Canada in recent years IMO

If true, that's likely just happenstance. Elite NHL talent is a very small sample size and I think it can be expected that it would not always balance out proportionately at any given moment.

I don't think there is anything inherently superior about the physical attributes or the training capabilities in the USA vs Canada. I am speculating, but I bet they're about the same.

 

[NVious]

No bias, I think it's 50/50 at this point which honestly is better for the game.

Americas team is better due to goaltending being >>> over Canada's, but Canada has way better top end talent, Makar/Mack/McDavid would be America's best player. That said, it's arguable if Canada's team as a whole is better, which is to say you could realistically give it to the US.

In any case, Canada's goaltending basically cost them the game which it's arguable that Swayman might literally be the starter for them.

To overtake Canada you have to beat them over and over again, America has yet to do that at every stage, but they probably will soon. That said, to overtake them they'd have to be clearly better like they are at goaltending, they simply are not.

 

[Bixby Snyder]

A good barometer for this is the number or percentage of NHL players.

Canada is about 40%. USA is approaching 29%.

So no.

In '96 when the USA won the world cup it was Canada 70% and USA 15% (roughly). If current trends continue USA and Canada will be about even or US up by a slight edge by the end of this decade.

 

[Senscore]

I thought it was Latvia that overtook us

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

North American hockey wins! I like North American hockey and I live in the US. I dont pull support from Canada if the US goes out of a tournament. I'll continue to cheer our North American players! Game is larger than borders for me and always has been...

Except Canada plays Russian hero puck now, not north american style. Not much physicality and size anymore, lots of individual skill and rush plays though.

US hasn't overtaken them yet, Canada still produces the most NHLers. But it's the first time ever the US national team looks better on paper imo.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

US has never been closer....and with the population size they have, they will overtake Canada at some point...you can't deny the numbers since they have 10 times the population

I'm actually surprised it took this long to compete with Canada, given how long hockey has been in the US in the O6 era

Because it's like the 4th or 5th most popular sport in the US. 10x the population but it's only just recently the US passed Canada in number of registered hockey players.

 

[FissionFire]

Star

Gretzky, Messier, Crosby and now McDavid have now lost to the US in a BOB game.
I think this shows pretty clearly that Canada has needed to be at their best or close to best to now beat the US. All evidence still says Canada is the best but difference isn't significant.

No tournament since Russia was banned has been a true best-on-best. You can’t ban a country that is good enough to win every tournament and then pretend it’s BOB. It’d be like banning the US or Canada and then trying to pretend it’s still a BOB format.

 

[HFsNumber1Heel]

Bro it's one game in a zany in-season tournament. Even if the US gives them more noogies/swirlies in a potential final matchup, they need to win the next two Olympics to even make this a conversation.

 

[elmaco]

I don't know but Miller took him self out in a fist fight.

 

[nORRis8]

I think its arguably better right now. The difference between offense and defense is negligible at this point. Fans from Canada pretend the goaltending position doesn't exist. The days of Roy, Brodeur, Price, Luongo, are gone. They arguably have the worst goaltending in this tournament.

Hmmm....not sure about that.
Hallebucyk is a very good goalie. Great in the regular seaon. Won a Vezina or two.
Come playoff time...the dude lays a deuce. Actually kinda lousy.

Adin Hill is having a strong season plus was the main reason Vegas won a Cup.
Binnington stepped up in the playoffs as well in 2019 enabling the Blues to win a Cup.
I have no problem with Binnington or Hill. Proven winners.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

There is way to much reactionairy BS from last nights game lol the Americans were the better team last night...if they meet in the finals on Thursday and Canada wins is Canada the best hockey nation again? Awfully short reign for the Americans! lol

 

[Mrfenn92]

Canada is still on top talent wise.

 

[Soundwave]

I think Canada still has the edge for absolute top of the heap forwards, but US has caught up on the D and surpassed Canada in goaltending and that evens the scales considerably. Binnington allowed 1, maybe even 2 poor goals last night, Hellebuyck was only beaten by a crazy skill play by McDavid.

 

[Hockey4Lyfe]

How can you possibly overtake Canada when the medal haul is literally like comparing the Yankees the to the Blue Jays?

Let me frame it this way, if the Blue Jays win the World Series next year, will they have overtaken the Yankees as the most successful baseball team? obviously not.

Americans have a way of jumping the gun with these things, may I remind you what happened in 2010? US beats Canada 5-3 in the preliminary games, Canada goes on to win gold in the rematch.

The tournament is not over, and no even if the US does win this tournament, that doesn't mean they've suddenly overtaken Canada, it will take years of proven results and years of gold medal hauls where there is a clear difference to make such a claim.

US for example hasn't even won the IIHF Worlds since the 1930's, Canada wins that every few years.

You are thinking of this as a in totality aspect instead of a here and now situation.

Like the Canadiens and Leafs in the NHL. Yeah they may have the most cups, but no one in their right mind considers them the best organizations.

Still a long way for the above to hold true for Canada as a whole but your analogy is off base.

The better questions should be is why does it feel like Canada is staying stagnant while other countries, Finland, Sweden, USA with less of their overall population playing the sport is gaining on them?

That should be the question that Canadian fans should be thinking about and doing something about.

Like I said previously, Canada is still the best, but it is sooo much closer than it was previously.

 

[JackSlater]

Yes, I believe the winner of the most recent Four Nations Face-Off preliminary round game is traditionally considered the best hockey nation. It's just tradition.

 

[bigdog16]

Usa hockey is not better but the gap is closing. If we are able to watch a product like last night for the next 25 years I will not complain whatsoever

 

[AD1066]

No, but I'm very happy with our progress in the last 15 years. We don't have a McDavid or MacKinnon, but we used to trot out the likes of Ryan Callahan at center. Look at the differences in both high-end talent and positional depth compared to 2010: