Did Jagr benefit of bad competition at forward during his peak to stack up Art Ross trophies?

[bobholly39]

I think Jagr had pretty strong competition at his peak. I disagree with the premise.

I will say I do think McDavid has all-time great competition. As in - I think this might be the highest competition to Ross/Hart in league history. So many guys who are challenging consistently every year.

So McDavid's competition is higher than Jagr in general - but Jagr still had very strong competition.

 

[GlitchMarner]

Presumably you are referring to the 2011 to 2015 period (five seasons), so lets take Jagr's four Rosses (removing 00/01 as he would not have Mario playing with him) and sees if wins every one of those.

The 94/95 version of Jagr, the 97/98 version and the 99/00 version loses the Art Ross to Malkin in 11/12 and to Crosby in 13/14. Only the 98/99 version wins the Art Ross in every one of those seasons but his level of play is matched by Crosby in 10/11 and 12/13 and by Malkin in 11/12; the same can be said about Jagr's 99/00 season.

He wins 2 to 3 Rosses out of 5 in that time period but his PPG dominance is matched by Crosby.

In 2011, D. Sedin won the Art Ross with 104 points. 1998 Jagr wins that Art Ross with 82 games played and has a good shot at winning with five games missed (he had 102 points in 77 GP).

In 2012, Malkin had that 112 point season. 1999 Jagr probably still beats him.

In 2013, St. Louis won the Art Ross with 60 points in a shortened season. 1995 Jagr (70 points in 48 games) probably wins that Art Ross outright instead of tying for it (like he did with Lindros).

In 2014, Crosby won convincingly with 104 points. 2000 Jagr probably challenges him if he plays a full season but not in the 63 games he actually played. Thus he loses one Ross there.

In 2015, Benn won with 87 points. 2001 Jagr has a good shot at winning that Ross even without Mario. It might have been a close call without Lemieux (maybe he puts up about 90 points).


So in terms of wins/high finishes he dominates about as much as he did in the mid 90s to early 00s. With Crosby healthy, it becomes more difficult for him to win regularly. But he wasn't healthy and neither was Malkin over the entire stretch (just like his top competitors in Forsberg, Sakic, Lindros etc missed a lot of games in the late 90s and early 00s).

 

[Overrated]

I think Jagr had pretty strong competition at his peak. I disagree with the premise.

I will say I do think McDavid has all-time great competition. As in - I think this might be the highest competition to Ross/Hart in league history. So many guys who are challenging consistently every year.

So McDavid's competition is higher than Jagr in general - but Jagr still had very strong competition.

37 year old Crosby and 39 year old Ovechkin seem to be doing just fine in this all time best competition.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

I will say I am really surprised by some of the answers. Among the all time great scorers, you can’t tell me Jagr did not have one of the worst top end competition.

Lafleur - (Dionne/Trottier/Gretzky)
Dionne - (Trottier/Lafleur/Gretzky)
Gretzky - (Yzerman/Lemieux/Dionne/Lafleur)
Lemieux - (Gretzky/Yzerman/Injuries)
Yzerman - (Gretzky/Lemieux)
Jagr - (Sakic/2 years of Lindros)
McDavid - (Kucherov/MacKinnon/Draisaitl)
Kucherov - (McDavid/Draisaitl/MacKinnon)

All of the players above minus Jagr have had contemporaries who were just as good or on a similar level offensively. From the period of 1998 to 2000, Jagr had literally nobody, similar to Crosby from 2013-2015. Were Sakic and 2 seasons Lindros really better scorers than any of the guys in parentheses? Maybe MacKinnon and Draisaitl are arguable, but both of them have been much more consistent than Sakic season after season to threaten for the scoring title.
Put a guy like Marcel Dionne in Jagr’s environnement and his career is probably viewed much differently.

(FWIW, I do think Crosby also benefitted from weaker competition in his era, but that effect was mostly negated by the amount of games he missed during his peak.)

 

[Overrated]

I will say I am really surprised by some of the answers. Among the all time great scorers, you can’t tell me Jagr did not have one of the worst top end competition.

Lafleur - (Dionne/Trottier/Gretzky)
Dionne - (Trottier/Lafleur/Gretzky)
Gretzky - (Yzerman/Lemieux/Dionne/Lafleur)
Lemieux - (Gretzky/Yzerman/Injuries)
Yzerman - (Gretzky/Lemieux)
Jagr - (Sakic/2 years of Lindros)
McDavid - (Kucherov/MacKinnon/Draisaitl)
Kucherov - (McDavid/Draisaitl/MacKinnon)

All of the players above minus Jagr have had contemporaries who were just as good or on a similar level offensively. From the period of 1998 to 2000, Jagr had literally nobody, similar to Crosby from 2013-2015. Were Sakic and 2 seasons Lindros really better scorers than any of the guys in parentheses? Maybe MacKinnon and Draisaitl are arguable, but both of them have been much more consistent than Sakic season after season to threaten for the scoring title.
Put a guy like Marcel Dionne in Jagr’s environnement and his career is probably viewed much differently.

(FWIW, I do think Crosby also benefitted from weaker competition in his era, but that effect was mostly negated by the amount of games he missed during his peak.)

That is because Jagr was better. Lafleur, Trottier, Dionne weren't as good as Bure, Forsberg and Lindros, let's not kid ourselves. Lemieux and Gretzky had each other for like half a decade other than that they also had no competition.

Put Dionne in Jagr's era and he is never making any top10 list ever from that era.

 

[psycat]

I will say I am really surprised by some of the answers. Among the all time great scorers, you can’t tell me Jagr did not have one of the worst top end competition.

Lafleur - (Dionne/Trottier/Gretzky)
Dionne - (Trottier/Lafleur/Gretzky)
Gretzky - (Yzerman/Lemieux/Dionne/Lafleur)
Lemieux - (Gretzky/Yzerman/Injuries)
Yzerman - (Gretzky/Lemieux)
Jagr - (Sakic/2 years of Lindros)
McDavid - (Kucherov/MacKinnon/Draisaitl)
Kucherov - (McDavid/Draisaitl/MacKinnon)

All of the players above minus Jagr have had contemporaries who were just as good or on a similar level offensively. From the period of 1998 to 2000, Jagr had literally nobody, similar to Crosby from 2013-2015. Were Sakic and 2 seasons Lindros really better scorers than any of the guys in parentheses? Maybe MacKinnon and Draisaitl are arguable, but both of them have been much more consistent than Sakic season after season to threaten for the scoring title.
Put a guy like Marcel Dionne in Jagr’s environnement and his career is probably viewed much differently.

(FWIW, I do think Crosby also benefitted from weaker competition in his era, but that effect was mostly negated by the amount of games he missed during his peak.)

Jagr missed more games than Crosby during their respective primes so theres that.

 

[JackSlater]

I will say I am really surprised by some of the answers. Among the all time great scorers, you can’t tell me Jagr did not have one of the worst top end competition.

Lafleur - (Dionne/Trottier/Gretzky)
Dionne - (Trottier/Lafleur/Gretzky)
Gretzky - (Yzerman/Lemieux/Dionne/Lafleur)
Lemieux - (Gretzky/Yzerman/Injuries)
Yzerman - (Gretzky/Lemieux)
Jagr - (Sakic/2 years of Lindros)
McDavid - (Kucherov/MacKinnon/Draisaitl)
Kucherov - (McDavid/Draisaitl/MacKinnon)

All of the players above minus Jagr have had contemporaries who were just as good or on a similar level offensively. From the period of 1998 to 2000, Jagr had literally nobody, similar to Crosby from 2013-2015. Were Sakic and 2 seasons Lindros really better scorers than any of the guys in parentheses? Maybe MacKinnon and Draisaitl are arguable, but both of them have been much more consistent than Sakic season after season to threaten for the scoring title.
Put a guy like Marcel Dionne in Jagr’s environnement and his career is probably viewed much differently.

(FWIW, I do think Crosby also benefitted from weaker competition in his era, but that effect was mostly negated by the amount of games he missed during his peak.)

What a strange way to frame the question by just basically ignoring significant parts of Jagr's scoring title competition. Even in the narrow timeframe you specified Jagr handily outscored basically full seasons of Selanne, Kariya, and Forsberg, each of whom would be a Art Ross threat in most eras.

 

[MadLuke]

Bad competition? Like peak Lindros, peak Bure, peak Fedorov, peak Kariya, peak Selanne, peak Sakic and peak Forsberg?

Would they have been healthy for sure. Lates 90s, earlys 00s had great high end talents, the issues with them was injuries.

1995 that against Lindros playing all the games except 2 on a great line, Sakic is a great puck moving D away to be on a super team offensively.

1998, Forsberg miss 10 games, Bure do not reach 40 assists and not supposed to compete for an Art Ross, Kariya get Sutered, Sakic is injured, Fedorov is not really an Art Ross treat anymore.

1999: Not only he win by 20 points, but against strong competition, Selanne-Kariya are healthy and on the same line, Forsberg play a career high 78 games with 73 games of Sakic a prime Sundin playing 82 games missed the top 10 that season.

2000: Sakic-Forsberg injured, Lindros is not what he was anymore
2001: A Sakic great season, that good competition.

Such a big gap in 1999, that the competition would not matter but it was a solid one and loosing it in 1996 was against a all-time great to compensate, there not many time a 62 goals-149 points in 1996 scoring environment that does not get it done (and leave you outside the Hart finalist).

 

[Golden_Jet]

I’ve never thought that.

 

[Overrated]

Would they have been healthy for sure. Lates 90s, earlys 00s had great high end talents, the issues with them was injuries.

1995 that against Lindros playing all the games except 2 on a great line, Sakic is a great puck moving D away to be on a super team offensively.

1998, Forsberg miss 10 games, Bure do not reach 40 assists and not supposed to compete for an Art Ross, Kariya get Sutered, Sakic is injured, Fedorov is not really an Art Ross treat anymore.

1999: Not only he win by 20 points, but against strong competition, Selanne-Kariya are healthy and on the same line, Forsberg play a career high 78 games with 73 games of Sakic a prime Sundin playing 82 games missed the top 10 that season.

2000: Sakic-Forsberg injured, Lindros is not what he was anymore
2001: A Sakic great season, that good competition.

Such a big gap in 1999, that the competition would not matter but it was a solid one and loosing it in 1996 was against a all-time great to compensate, there not many time a 62 goals-149 points in 1996 scoring environment that does not get it done (and leave you outside the Hart finalist).

To be honest during Jagr's peak even he himself missed like 40 games of regular season. He might have been luckier than some others I don't dispute that but it's not like he totally avoided all injuries. What is more important that even in PPG he dominated and not just in total points.

 

[MadLuke]

He did lead in ppg 4 times (if we include 2001), so not far from 5th Art Ross.

It was not just luck too (has proven by him still playing), size, strength, crazy living-training regiment, hockey sense

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Jagr missed more games than Crosby during their respective primes so theres that.

When was this. Crosby missed like 2 entire seasons during ages 23-25

 

[Nadal On Clay]

What a strange way to frame the question by just basically ignoring significant parts of Jagr's scoring title competition. Even in the narrow timeframe you specified Jagr handily outscored basically full seasons of Selanne, Kariya, and Forsberg, each of whom would be a Art Ross threat in most eras.

Do you think Selanne, Kariya and Forsberg would outscore Kucherov and MacKinnon in today’s game?

 

[daver]

Do you think Selanne, Kariya and Forsberg would outscore Kucherov and MacKinnon in today’s game?

Sometimes? Why wouldn't you think they wouldn't? Forsberg's per game production for a season and half was pretty close to peak Jagr, which makes it pretty close to peak Crosby and McDavid. His prime was certainly on par with prime Kucherov and prime MacKinnon.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Sometimes? Why wouldn't you think they wouldn't? Forsberg's per game production for a season and half was pretty close to peak Jagr, which makes it pretty close to peak Crosby and McDavid. His prime was certainly on par with prime Kucherov and prime MacKinnon.

They’re just not as good at scoring. Neither of Selanne or Kariya finishes above Kuch/MacK the last 2 years in any years of their career. I wouldn’t even bet for them beating out 2018-2023 Kuch/MacK most of the years, although it’s closer.

Forsberg you could make a better argument for, but he was competing in truly like 25% of the seasons as he was always injured.

 

[daver]

You look at today, we have McDavid/Kucherov/Draisaitl/MacKinnon who are all competing every year for the award.

This claim needs a fair amount of clarification as you are saying that over the past nine years, this foursome has a total of 36 Art Ross contending seasons between them; ones that could have taken a Ross away from Jagr if he played in this era.

2016/17 (ONE AR contending season) - McDavid is the only Art Ross threat, Kucherov introduces himself to Mr. Ross while Draisaitl is part of McDavid's party

2017/18 - (ONE AR contending season) - McDavid wins a fairly weak Art Ross, Kucherov argubly was there too before taking his foot off the gas at the end, MacKinnon introduces himself to Mr. Ross despite missing a few games, and Draisaitl regresses

2018/19 - (TWO AR contending seasons) - Kucherov and McDavid are obvious, Draisaitl is again along for the ride with McDavid, and MacKinnon regresses

19/20 - (TWO AR contending seasons) - Draisaitl and McDavid are obvious, Mac and Kuch are in the pack

20/21 - (ONE AR contending season) - McDavid is obvious, Drai is along for the Canadian division ride, Mac is in the pack, Kuch is on the couch

21/22 - (ONE AR contending season) - McDavid is obvious, Drai is in the pack, Mac is out of the Top 10, Kuch is on the couch for half the season

22/23 - (ONE AR contending season) - McDavid is obvious, Drai is debatable, Mac and Kuch are in the pack

23/24 - (THREE AR contending seasons) - Kucherov, MacKinnon and McDavid

24/25 - (TWO AR contending seasons) - Kucherov, and MacKinnon, Drai and McDavid miss to many games


So a total of 13 AR contending seasons, of which, 7 are non-McDavid seasons.

Starting in 1994/95 to 02/03, there are 7 AR contending seasons (no Mario):

Lindros - 94/95
Selanne - 96/97
Selanne - 98/99
Sakic - 00/01
Iginla - 01/02
Forsberg - 02/03
Naslund - 02/03

 

[daver]

I wouldn’t even bet for them beating out 2018-2023 Kuch/MacK most of the years, although it’s closer.

2018 to 2023 point finishes for Kuch/Mack:

1, 3, 3, 5, 5, 5, 7, 8, 8


1996 to 2001 point finishes for Selanne/Kariya:

2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 7, 7, 8


Eliminate the duplicates


2018 to 2023 point finishes for Kuch/Mack:

1, 5, 5, 8


1996 to 2001 point finishes for Selanne/Kariya:

2, 2, 4, 7


Advantage Selanne/Kariya

 

[Nadal On Clay]

This claim needs a fair amount of clarification as you are saying that over the past nine years, this foursome has a total of 36 Art Ross contending seasons between them; ones that could have taken a Ross away from Jagr if he played in this era.

2016/17 (ONE AR contending season) - McDavid is the only Art Ross threat, Kucherov introduces himself to Mr. Ross while Draisaitl is part of McDavid's party

2017/18 - (ONE AR contending season) - McDavid wins a fairly weak Art Ross, Kucherov argubly was there too before taking his foot off the gas at the end, MacKinnon introduces himself to Mr. Ross despite missing a few games, and Draisaitl regresses

2018/19 - (TWO AR contending seasons) - Kucherov and McDavid are obvious, Draisaitl is again along for the ride with McDavid, and MacKinnon regresses

19/20 - (TWO AR contending seasons) - Draisaitl and McDavid are obvious, Mac and Kuch are in the pack

20/21 - (ONE AR contending season) - McDavid is obvious, Drai is along for the Canadian division ride, Mac is in the pack, Kuch is on the couch

21/22 - (ONE AR contending season) - McDavid is obvious, Drai is in the pack, Mac is out of the Top 10, Kuch is on the couch for half the season

22/23 - (ONE AR contending season) - McDavid is obvious, Drai is debatable, Mac and Kuch are in the pack

23/24 - (THREE AR contending seasons) - Kucherov, MacKinnon and McDavid

24/25 - (TWO AR contending seasons) - Kucherov, and MacKinnon, Drai and McDavid miss to many games


So a total of 13 AR contending seasons, of which, 7 are non-McDavid seasons.

Starting in 1994/95 to 02/03, there are 7 AR contending seasons (no Mario):

Lindros - 94/95
Selanne - 96/97
Selanne - 98/99
Sakic - 00/01
Iginla - 01/02
Forsberg - 02/03
Naslund - 02/03

This post contains a lot of bias. Lets set some of the parameters before even going further. What is even considered an “Art-Ross contending season” in your opinion? For the sake of objectivity, lets say a top 5 finish is “contending” for the Art Ross to avoid any form of bias.

After that, in the 1995 season, Jagr was 22. That would be the equivalent of 2018-2019 for McDavid. Why go back to 2016-2017 when I used today as comparative? 2016-2017 is almost 10 years ago.

2019: Kucherov (1st), McDavid (2nd), Draisaitl (4th)

2020: Draisaitl (1st), McDavid (2nd), MacKinnon (5th)

2021: McDavid (1st), Draisaitl (2nd)

2022: McDavid (1st), Draisaitl (4th)

2023: McDavid (1st), Draisaitl (2nd), Kucherov (3rd), MacKinnon (5th)

2024: Kucherov (1st), MacKinnon (2nd), McDavid (3rd)

2025: Kucherov (1st), MacKinnon (2nd), Draisaitl (3rd)

That’s makes it 20/28 (71%) if we start from 2018-2019.

I’d say it was a pretty accurate statement.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

2018 to 2023 point finishes for Kuch/Mack:

1, 3, 3, 5, 5, 5, 7, 8, 8


1996 to 2001 point finishes for Selanne/Kariya:

2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 7, 7, 8


Eliminate the duplicates


2018 to 2023 point finishes for Kuch/Mack:

1, 5, 5, 8


1996 to 2001 point finishes for Selanne/Kariya:

2, 2, 4, 7


Advantage Selanne/Kariya

Judging by that exercice, you give the same value to a 99 pts Paul Kariya in 1997 as a 132 pts Connor McDavid in 2024?

 

[WarriorofTime]

Sometimes? Why wouldn't you think they wouldn't? Forsberg's per game production for a season and half was pretty close to peak Jagr, which makes it pretty close to peak Crosby and McDavid. His prime was certainly on par with prime Kucherov and prime MacKinnon.

It’s time for people to start giving Kucherov more flowers instead of pretending he’s just another guy.

 

[JackSlater]

Do you think Selanne, Kariya and Forsberg would outscore Kucherov and MacKinnon in today’s game?

Sure, some of the time. We aren't talking Gretzky and Lemieux here. I still don't get why you singled out specifically Sakic and Lindros only as if there weren't other players in that span on their level offensively.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Selanne putting up 107 points in 75 games (in on 50% of Ducks points) in the depths of the DPE keeps getting missed as an all-timer season. Yes, he played with a red-hot Kariya, but Jagr still outscored them by 20 points.

 

[JackSlater]

Selanne putting up 107 points in 75 games (in on 50% of Ducks points) in the depths of the DPE keeps getting missed as an all-timer season. Yes, he played with a red-hot Kariya, but Jagr still outscored them by 20 points.

Selanne's 1999 season was great. Very underrated in particular compared with his over-discussed 1993 season.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Sure, some of the time. We aren't talking Gretzky and Lemieux here. I still don't get why you singled out specifically Sakic and Lindros only as if there weren't other players in that span on their level offensively.

Ok. I guess we disagree on that one.

The point I am trying to make is that I believe if Jagr’s peak happened at any time before 1995 and after 2020, his all time rank would be a bit lower than it is right now for some people, given he wouldn’t have dominated his contemporaries as much as he did from 1995-2001 and it might have hurt his trophy case.

Sakic and Lindros had better peak seasons than Selanne and Kariya, which is why I singled them out. Jagr’s case doesn’t get any better by singling out Selanne and Kariya instead, who even though were tremendous players, were not on the level of a Peak MacKinnon or a Peak Kucherov, at least not as consistently great.

 

[Felidae]

What a strange way to frame the question by just basically ignoring significant parts of Jagr's scoring title competition. Even in the narrow timeframe you specified Jagr handily outscored basically full seasons of Selanne, Kariya, and Forsberg, each of whom would be a Art Ross threat in most eras.

Selanne, Kariya and Forsberg aren't the same level of Art Ross threat that prime Ovechkin and prime MacKinnon/Kucherov are.

Well, maybe with Forsberg, but he was also constantly injured (same with Lindros). The one season he put it all together offensively, Jagr was in his Washington era.

Even Sakic was injured a fair amount but he's also not on the same level as Crosby and McDavids main contemporaries, at least noot the same level of offensive consistency.

Not sure i'd have Selanne/Kariya over Trottier and Dionne either.