Did Dubas Trade away a future Conn Smythe Winner in Nazem Kadri?

[Bomber0104]

You do know that this is the first time in his career Mrazek's had a groin injury, right?

Imagine trying to downplay Petr Mrazek's injury history with a straight face

 

[BayStBullies]

If you think this thread is dumb, some moron made a similar one on the main board.

 

[Lightsol]

Was it not 2 this year?

Assuming they were two different groin injuries and not an attempt to come back early aggravating the same one. But my point is, it's the first time he's had one, so it's not accurate to act like he's Rick Dipetro.

 

[ToneDog]

Assuming they were two different groin injuries and not an attempt to come back early aggravating the same one. But my point is, it's the first time he's had one, so it's not accurate to act like he's Rick Dipetro.

Don't think he came back early. With Soup out perhaps he was overworked. He missed most of last season with an upper body injury. Any GM will tread carefully.

 

[Menzinger]

So by that logic, no team or GM can ever lose a trade and it's never a GM's fault for making poor evaluations about trading very good players for crap like Kerfoot.

"If that player played like that here, we wouldn't have traded him!"

That's a laughably weak argument, clearly.

Blaming Kadri (the player) for his own trade is even weaker.

Theres nothing "weak" about pointing out an observable fact that Kadri never played at this level while he was a Leaf - especially in the post season. You don't even need analytics to tell you that; just eyeballs.

 

[Bomber0104]

Theres nothing "weak" about pointing out an observable fact that Kadri never played at this level while he was a Leaf - especially in the post season. You don't even need analytics to tell you that; just eyeballs.

I said nothing about eyeballs or analytics. Where did you read that? Weird.

What I said is that based on your completely circular reasoning, no GM/team can ever be said to "lose" a trade based on your idea that (paraphrasing here):

"If he played like that here, we wouldn't have traded him"

That's the whole point of evaluation, what NHL GM's are supposed to specialize in. You're supposed to know for yourself what a player like Kadri can do and is capable of versus someone like Alex Kerfoot.

So yes it's a very "weak" argument, and if that was the best we could get on a near dollar-for-dollar cap basis then he should have been retained, simple as that.

Hold out for a real offer and don't get rid of rare breeds like Kadri for vanilla soft serve like Kerfoot.

 

[Menzinger]

I said nothing about eyeballs or analytics. Where did you read that? Weird.

What I said is that based on your completely circular reasoning, no GM/team can ever be said to lose a trade based on your idea that (paraphrasing):

"If he played like that here, we wouldn't have traded him"

That's the whole point of evaluation, what NHL GM's are supposed to specialize in. You're supposed to know for yourself what a player like Kadri can do and is capable versus someone like Alex Kerfoot.

If that was the best we could get on a near dollar-for-dollar cap basis then he should have been retained.

You don't get rid of rare breeds like Kadri for vanilla soft serve like Kerfoot.

And my earlier post didn't mention evaluating trades at all

Just pointing the fact that Kadri wasn't playing anywhere near this level when he was with the Leafs. He also wasnt an up and coming kid st.the time; he was already in his late 20s. If he had been a ppg player and had helped the Leafs get to the second round, he'd still be in a Leafs sweater.

 

[Bomber0104]

And my earlier post didn't mention evaluating trades at all

Just pointing the fact that Kadri wasn't playing anywhere near this level when he was with the Leafs. He also wasnt an up and coming kid st.the time; he was already in his late 20s. If he had been a ppg player and had helped the Leafs get to the second round, he'd still be in a Leafs sweater.

Ok and once again, you're just repeating another version of this:

"If he played like that here, we wouldn't have traded him"

So I'll repeat my own response until it's understood:

That's the whole point of evaluation, what NHL GM's are supposed to specialize in. You're supposed to know for yourself what a player like Kadri can do and is capable versus someone like Alex Kerfoot.

If that was the best we could get on a near dollar-for-dollar cap basis then he should have been retained.

You don't get rid of rare breeds like Kadri for vanilla soft serve like Kerfoot.

Or you can respond to anything above, without just repeating the same stuff over and over.

Under your logic, Carolina didn't lose the Lindholm trade. It was Lindholm's fault for not playing better. If he had played better they would have kept him there. And it had nothing to do with Carolina undervaluing his ability in the first place.

Again, laughably weak, but it's the same as your argument and confounding logic with regards to Kadri being traded away.

 

[ClarkSittler]

If only Kadri got the amount of second chances from management, as Dubas gets from ownership.

/thread

 

[mikeyz]

Kadri had to go, let's get real here.

Why am I not surprised to hear you say this? LMFAO

If only Kadri got the amount of second chances from management, as Dubas gets from ownership.

Say it louder so @Gary Nylund in the back can hear you.

If I could like this post a million times, I would.

 

[ULF_55]

How long was his playoff suspension last year?

How frequently is he suspended in the playoff?

I think he owes his teammates this performance.

 

[WillyC]

For everyone saying we shouldn’t of traded Kadri away…

with his reputation, there’s still a chance he gets suspended during this year’s playoffs.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Only half sarcasm here: it's really too bad that Kadri didn't find that sweet spot between over-the-top passion and whatever it is that compels most of the Leafs' roster to skate back to the bench as their teammate is getting facewashed after the whistle.

That seems to be our issue as a whole IMO. The being reactive part instead of instigating. You can just see our players feel so uncomfortable with any scrums that they are always looking to skate away (except Simmer, Bunting and Clifford) and be the bigger man not getting baited in. That works if your PP is good and you can make them pay for face washes...if you can't make them pay with the PP and you won't fight back...well..this is what you get. A team that is built for skill and IQ that is trying to play that way in basically what is a war out there in the playoffs.

We play too "Nice" and no matter how often Keefe bemoans that Engval should be physical...he just is not made that way. He doesn't have the inner drive to be insanely competitive. So we get skilled guys and ask them to do something they are not comfortable with and expect good results....great plan.

 

[rocketman588]

Also nothing high end about Barrie. He's a flashy, irresponsible points compiler on track meet teams. The retention on the one year contract is sort of an insight the Leafs were circling 2019-20 as the year to really win it all. At the time Tampa hadn't established themselves so the field was seemingly wide open.

Which is pretty insane considering we were pretty terrible. There's a good chance we miss the playoffs in an 82 game season that year

 

[rocketman588]

I don't know. Colorado and especially Edmonton are built VERY similarly to the way the Leafs are. The issue is that the Leafs are in the wrong conference. That and they need to figure out why the hell they're constantly fighting EVERYTHING every year.

Colorado is built similar to us if you don't consider their 3 team Canada level defensemen and better goalie to go along with their offensive prowess.

Sure Edmonton is similar. We wouldn't be sitting at home if our 11 million dollar players went God mode like mcdavid. Yet here we are

The conference argument is completely BS and a hilarious excuse. We played the 18 seed and the 14/15 the 2 of the last 3 years and lost them both.

Can't get any easier then that yet we're using it as an excuse somehow

 

[AuraSphere]

Thinking back - our 2019 roster was probably the deepest if everyone performed how they are now (literally a matter of 2 years).

Hyman - Matthews - Nylander
Marleau- Tavares- Marner
Brown - Kadri - Kapanen
Johnsson- Moore- Mikhyev


really woulda thought that roster would go somewhere at the time. I guess our D was just really bad similar to Edmonton now.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Not true. Leafs could have won each of those series without Kadri. Kadri was ready and waiting for round 2.

That potential value if we could sneak into round 2 is still value, just not readily available. 18/19 especially, I think Leafs win the cup if made it past round 1. Adding Kadri to that team would have been unstoppable.

The point is the potential suspension risk in Kadri was not enough to make barrie and kerfoot worth it. This is a hindsight comment but this is evaluation only so hindsight is unavoidable.

Sure it's true and I'll say it again - Kadri's value to the team for two playoffs in a row is zero.

Potential value, is not the same as value. It has value only if realized and for two years in a row, Kadri's playoff value was not realized, and thus was zero.

What??

No one can say definitively why any move is made unless they are an insider?

I said Kadri was moved because Dubas wanted to make a big move.

What alternative reason was to move him?

You said Kadri was moved because Dubas wanted to make a splash.

You have literally nothing to back this up.

GM's make moves for one reason only - for the good of the team.

 

[notbias]

He also got suspended in Colorado (lots of their fans wanted him gone), so we would have potentially had to tolerate another suspension in the playoffs, maybe he learned now, but he messed up the next place he went after us.

The trade was fine then and is fine now.

Barrie is a good player, not great, and played well under Keefe, under Babcock he was being tasked to play a style he is not suited for and it showed.

Kerfoot has been a good player (outproduced Kadri if you remove powerplay points this year) but is clearly at least a step behind Kadri.

Not sure we would have had the cap to sign Brodie when we did without the Kadri for Kerfoot swap.

Overall, happier with a team of Brodie than Kadri just based on our needs.

 

[hamzarocks]

He also got suspended in Colorado (lots of their fans wanted him gone), so we would have potentially had to tolerate another suspension in the playoffs, maybe he learned now, but he messed up the next place he went after us.

The trade was fine then and is fine now.

Barrie is a good player, not great, and played well under Keefe, under Babcock he was being tasked to play a style he is not suited for and it showed.

Kerfoot has been a good player (outproduced Kadri if you remove powerplay points this year) but is clearly at least a step behind Kadri.

Not sure we would have had the cap to sign Brodie when we did without the Kadri for Kerfoot swap.

Overall, happier with a team of Brodie than Kadri just based on our needs.

Kadri had 58 EVS pts in 71 games while Kerfoot had 47 in 82. Kadri is and will always be much better than Kerfoot.

Kadri was easily a better/more valuable player than Brodie this year

Your talking about a 100ish point center vs a 30ish point defenseman

The deal is done now and the leafs haven't take the next step since we moved him.

Thinking back - our 2019 roster was probably the deepest if everyone performed how they are now (literally a matter of 2 years).

Hyman - Matthews - Nylander
Marleau- Tavares- Marner
Brown - Kadri - Kapanen
Johnsson- Moore- Mikhyev


really woulda thought that roster would go somewhere at the time. I guess our D was just really bad similar to Edmonton now.

We didn't have mikheyev. He came in 2020 had Marleau insted but yeah was a very deep team at forward.

Season was ruined by Nylander coming out of shape and not ready to play. If we had 70 point Nylander we'd be next level. Instead he played the worst hockey of his career and we ended up losing a quality 1st liner

 

[Canadian Finn]

Players like Kadri don't fit our "corporate culture".

Dubas has worked hard to build our teams core strength - The Mickey Mouse Club.

Can't be ruining that with players who have heart.

 

[notbias]

Players like Kadri don't fit our "corporate culture".

Dubas has worked hard to build our teams core strength - The Mickey Mouse Club.

Can't be ruining that with players who have heart.

Gio, Blackwell, Lub, Clifford

Those are the heartless players he brought in this year via trade.

 

[hamzarocks]

Sure it's true and I'll say it again - Kadri's value to the team for two playoffs in a row is zero.

Potential value, is not the same as value. It has value only if realized and for two years in a row, Kadri's playoff value was not realized, and thus was zero.


You said Kadri was moved because Dubas wanted to make a splash.

You have literally nothing to back this up.

GM's make moves for one reason only - for the good of the team.

The deal dubas made wasn't fir the good of the team.

It was a 1 season move. If Barrie was a 60 point player he'd price himself out of a new deal.

If he sucked we'd move on from him.

Dubas went after a 1 year rental as his target (after the brodie deal fell). That type of trade is a win now move which shows Dubas was looking to make a big move for the 2020 season.

Dubas won't obviously come out and say he wanted to make a big splash. However it was his second offseason. The previous year he'd signed JT and now he wanted to make another big name move which ended up being getting Barrie who was coming off a 60 pt season with the Avs.

You'll see since then he hasn't gone after many big names.

He's targeted depth Signings and guys who can play solid roles but aren't household names.

Brodie/Bunting/Kase/Mrazek(intention was to be able to be a 1a/1b).

He didn't chase big names after seeing the Tyson Barrie move flopped.

Avoid Pietrangelo, avoided Tarasenko who was on the block last offseason

 

[notbias]

Kadri had 58 EVS pts in 71 games while Kerfoot had 47 in 82. Kadri is and will always be much better than Kerfoot.

Kadri was easily a better/more valuable player than Brodie this year

Your talking about a 100ish point center vs a 30ish point defenseman

The deal is done now and the leafs haven't take the next step since we moved him.

Kadri is better, I said so, but the reason Kadri had a much better season stat-wise was the PP.

100pt pace is a huge outlier in his career, not sure what the argument is here, also high on-ice shooting percentage and ozs%.

Brodie > Kadri based on our needs, not sure why you're bringing up Brodie's points, it isn't why he is signed.

edit - I can't do math on the ESP, miscalculated. Point still stands that this is a huge outlier for Kadri.

 

[hamzarocks]

Kadri is better, I said so, but the reason Kadri had a much better season stat-wise was the PP.

100pt pace is a huge outlier in his career, not sure what the argument is here, also high on-ice shooting percentage and ozs%.

Brodie > Kadri based on our needs, not sure why you're bringing up Brodie's points, it isn't why he is signed.

Kerfoot is a offensive leach, not a play driver and benefits from playing with 88 and 91 who generate most of the offense there.

He's no where near skilled enough to play a PP role like Kadri does.

Also EVS wise Kadri was on pace for 67/82 and kerfoot had 47/82 so a 20point gap is very very big event not factoring in PPs

Brodie isn't better than Kadri based on our needs. A 100 pt center is a franchise player and having him would make our 2nd line better than our 1st.

Now I don't think Kadri gets 80 ever again. He's a 55-60 point player when healthy and used right.

However, just saying that the Leafs could have used 2022 Kadri much more than 2022 brodie.

2022 Kadri was >> Tavares.

We could have used him. Wish we had tried him at LW in 2019 and seen if he could play like this for us. Bad coaching by Babcock to not at least try that role

 

[notbias]

Tavares >> Kadri last year, and the year before.
Kadri has one really good season in his entire career.