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Did Babcock have it right to begin with?

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BlueForever75

BlueForever75

Registered User
Oct 4, 2017
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I know we always complained on how Babcock had his lines setup, and there was this big deal that he wasnt playing Matthews with Marner. But after a season and half of watching Keefe do the opposite of what Babcock did in his tenure. I am wondering if Babcock was right after all!!!! I will explain.

Matthews scored 40+ goals without Marner correct? Who were his linemates? Hyman and Nylander.

Tavares scored 40+ goals with Marner correct? Never did it before correct?

PP started to struggle when Keefe put all his eggs in one basket when he took over. Worked for a bit but teams figured them out.

So here is my question......are the Leafs a better team with Matthews-Nylander and Tavares-Marner combos?

Does it truly give us to threats, because last year I didnt like what we saw.

Also, would it be wise putting those pairs on separate PPs? Load it up on 5 on 3s. But keep it spread out otherwise. It provides 2 different looks to opposing PKs.

What are you thoughts?
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the Leafs lost doing things one way, and they lost doing things a different way. That doesn't automatically change what happened the first time and transform it into a winning strategy. Babcock did nothing but lose with the Leafs, so he clearly did not have it right
 
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Mats13 said:
No.

Keefe might not be the answer, but that doesn’t change how awful of a coach Babcock was.
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Team played better with less. Aside from his coaching antics my question still stands. Should Matthews and Marner be split up back to what worked better previously. 2 dangerous lines with 2 40+ goal scorers.
 
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BlueForever75 said:
Team played better with less. Aside from his coaching antics my question still stands. Should Matthews and Marner be split up back to what worked better previously. 2 dangerous lines with 2 40+ goal scorers.
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Maybe? But he still did a lot of other questionable things with his lineup... A lot more than I would say Keefe has.
 
SeaOfBlue said:
Maybe? But he still did a lot of other questionable things with his lineup... A lot more than I would say Keefe has.
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Like making Hyman into what he is today? Only he did that, had faith in him. Was one of his soldiers!!!

But anyhow, Reilly and Tavares have taken the biggest steps back since Babcock has left. Why?

Matthews and Marner should be split up. And Reilly should be given the option to shoot more as he did in his 20 goal season under Babcock. Never mind this foolish Matthews to Marner all the time. Its become their show while the Leafs have much more skill and money invested in others.

More of a team game.

This is why Babcock never put them together to begin with. It was shinny hockey between buddies. The rest of the team didnt matter. We are seeing this right now.
 
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A GM should have a coach that sees eye to eye.

Babcock had a vision that was thrown out the door the day dubas was hired.

Babcock's vision of:

  • Compete level
  • 50-50 puck battle
  • playing the right way
  • being first to the puck
  • being on the right side of the puck
  • playing body
  • etc...

are somethings that seasoned NHL coaches desire. Heck Tampa changed their "offense only" outlook after getting embarassed by CBJ. It was a total team buy in.


Babcock's worst season as a coach here (excluding tank season) he had:
  • Petan, Barrie, Sparks, Ceci

Babcock's approach to the game is way different, I think his approach is a combination of Trotz's defense and Bourdreau's offense -> i.e. very demanding on players. No half ass BS on either side of the ice, short shifts and full throttle 100% shifts. Babcock also ran very short practices so that players can use that energy during the game instead of practices.


Only problem with Babcock was he was stubborn where he would not ice Matthews in game 7 to get goals when were were playing from behind in the 2nd sereis against Boston.

I think Babcock was not a bad coach, he just did not get to realize his vision because he didn't get the players he would have like to execute his systems.

When Lou was here he got Babcock: Hainsey, Polak, Andersen, Boyle, Plakanec

Hainsey was here to help Rielly, Polak was here to insulate both Rielly/Gardiner and take more PK minutes, Boyle and Plakanec both defensive players were gifts to the roster for showing promise in regular season.

Context: Matthews, Marner, Nylander were all very young and still learning; including Rielly.


Enter Dubas:
Babcock's 1 season with Dubas as a GM: Players he got babcock due to cap crunch

Barrie, Ceci, Petan, Sparks, Trevor Moore, etc....

Only formidable add from Dubas was Muzzin IMO during babcock's time here. And JT from UFA


Dubas enforcerd his vision brought in his coach (a rookie); and the results are for everyone to see.
Context: Matthews, Marner, Nylander are now seasoned players and not rookies or ELC players. Tavares is another forward taking in significant portion of the cap.

Bottom Line:
I don't think we ever got to see Babcock's vision fully implemented

We have seen Dubas' vision fully implemented for a season and a half and this upcoming season will make it 2 and a half season (unless dubas and keefe are fired mid-season)
 
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I think their might be a bigger problem cause there there was no pain? I was ready for losing for a few years and then getting better but suddenly we're in the playoffs and expectations are really high and every year the expectations are based on the past years that were supposed to be painful? So Babs set up for pain which probably would've been actually beneficial in hindsight.
 
BlueForever75 said:
Like making Hyman into what he is today? Only he did that, had faith in him. Was one of his soldiers!!!

But anyhow, Reilly and Tavares have taken the biggest steps back since Babcock has left. Why?

Matthews and Marner should be split up. And Reilly should be given the option to shoot more as he did in his 20 goal season under Babcock. Never mind this foolish Matthews to Marner all the time. Its become their show while the Leafs have much more skill and money invested in others.

More of a team game.

This is why Babcock never put them together to begin with. It was shinny hockey between buddies. The rest of the team didnt matter. We are seeing this right now.
Click to expand...

Hyman made Hyman, his entire story from when he was younger was that he made up for his lack of skill with hard work. Babcock wasn't influencing him at 12 years old.

Tavares is a better two-way center now.

Rielly is still the same player, one outlier of a season doesn't change that. His D pairing right now is also my favorite from his entire tenure, I don't think they are liability defensively. I don't know if that is all Brodie or part system-related too, but I like it.

I want to roll 3 good lines and really want Marner or Nylander driving line #3 and the other on #2 with Tavares, so I am on board with this kind of, but Matthews/Marner is a very dominant line and no other combination is as good, so I wouldn't call it foolish. Nylander/Tavares is still really good.

Matthews is on pace for like 65 goals over the last two seasons.. they are arguably a top 5 line in the league, the Leafs have been dominant and on like 105+ paced seasons, the team is not suffering much.
 
There's a lot more to Babcock that the Matthews-marner dilemma.

Honestly, stars are going to put up numbers no matter what. Babcock had other areas where he failed miserably and everyone knows it. Hence the reason he's coaching highschool hockey now
 
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notbias said:
Hyman made Hyman, his entire story from when he was younger was that he made up for his lack of skill with hard work. Babcock wasn't influencing him at 12 years old.

Tavares is a better two-way center now.

Rielly is still the same player, one outlier of a season doesn't change that. His D pairing right now is also my favorite from his entire tenure, I don't think they are liability defensively. I don't know if that is all Brodie or part system-related too, but I like it.

I want to roll 3 good lines and really want Marner or Nylander driving line #3 and the other on #2 with Tavares, so I am on board with this kind of, but Matthews/Marner is a very dominant line and no other combination is as good, so I wouldn't call it foolish. Nylander/Tavares is still really good.

Matthews is on pace for like 65 goals over the last two seasons.. they are arguably a top 5 line in the league, the Leafs have been dominant and on like 105+ paced seasons, the team is not suffering much.
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Yea, but there is a big difference between stat padding against Detroits and Buffalos of the world and actually doing it in the playoffs against other playoff teams that are zeroing on you every single night. They like it easy, but when it's tough they disappear. Besides, playing them 22+ minutes a night ain't helping. So at least Babs was right not to play them that much. They can put up all the fancy regular season numbers they want but till they get it done in the playoffs it will matter little. Even I, someone who has been watching pretty much every single regular season game for years will tune out the regular season this coming season. Their numbers next season during the regular season are going to be absolutely meaningless.
 
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He may not have been right, but considering the same deficiencies still exist under Keefe as they did under Babcock that people vowed would never be the case, he wasn't wrong either.

And truthfully, I still think Babcock's long game and vision for this team is/was better than what Keefe's is.

If Keefe decided to run Matthews/Nylander and Tavares/Marner pairings again, I'd have absolutely no issue with it. May actually be for the best, to be honest.
 
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Suntouchable13 said:
Yea, but there is a big difference between stat padding against Detroits and Buffalos of the world and actually doing it in the playoffs against other playoff teams that are zeroing on you every single night. They like it easy, but when it's tough they disappear. Besides, playing them 22+ minutes a night ain't helping. So at least Babs was right not to play them that much. They can put up all the fancy regular season numbers they want but till they get it done in the playoffs it will matter little. Even I, someone who has been watching pretty much every single regular season game for years will tune out the regular season this coming season. Their numbers next season during the regular season are going to be absolutely meaningless.
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your sample size is 12 games, I am not reading too much into it.

I am too lazy to go into the breakdown of who they score most against, but I am sure it is not stat-padding considering how few 3+ goals games Matthews has.
 
Both coaches have their qualms. I prefer Keefe's utilization of Matthews and Marner, however, both needed to be more flexible. When things were not working against the Habs, the lines needed to be shifted.
 
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