Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - season begins!

dgibb10

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We’re well beyond that. That’s a loser move.
I am not saying hold the draft pick.

I am saying repurpose it into a top 6 forward.

Nemec+Vatrano>Tatar+Kovacevic heading into the playoffs imo



Imagine if we had sold Graves as a rental and let Luke take over and used those pieces as a part of the meier trade

We likely would have had now:

Musty or Zetterlund+2nd or Shakir
 

SteveCangialosi123

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I am not saying hold the draft pick.

I am saying repurpose it into a top 6 forward.

Nemec+Vatrano>Tatar+Kovacevic heading into the playoffs imo



Imagine if we had sold Graves as a rental and let Luke take over and used those pieces as a part of the meier trade

We likely would have had now:

Musty or Zetterlund+2nd or Shakir
I would keep the defenseman that has been excellent, and wouldn’t even consider trading him. I would also extend him. Graves wasn’t any good even when he was moderately successful with Marino — and it still would’ve been crazy to subtract from the team that year.

Just trade a pick or whatever for a forward if you want one. Nemec and or Casey also very well could be needed depth if injuries happen. I’d almost bet on it happening.
 

Guttersniped

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I am not saying hold the draft pick.

I am saying repurpose it into a top 6 forward.

Nemec+Vatrano>Tatar+Kovacevic heading into the playoffs imo



Imagine if we had sold Graves as a rental and let Luke take over and used those pieces as a part of the meier trade

We likely would have had now:

Musty or Zetterlund+2nd or Shakir
So a 2nd then lol?

Not sure how you see Graves as a rental getting us back a young roster player or a high end prospect.

I doubt he would have gotten us a 1st either nor can you assume we would have drafted Musty.
 

Goptor

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If you trade away players at the 2023 deadline then you don't get a playoff run.

No expectations last year and we still have Ruff to end the season. Fitz gets fired and we go into a new rebuild with Chuck Fletcher as our new GM and Travis Green as our coach.
 
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NJDfan86

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We’re well beyond that. That’s a loser move.

I’l think that a trade like this is highly unlikely, but to call it a loser move seems overly dismissive. There was no context in the post, but I can see a world where Nemec plays incredible while Kovy slips a bit - I wouldn’t find it to be a loser move to trade from a position of strength to upgrade somewhere else.

Obviously Kovy’s play this necessitates keeping him
In our lineup, I hope it continues.
 

MartyOwns

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I’l think that a trade like this is highly unlikely, but to call it a loser move seems overly dismissive. There was no context in the post, but I can see a world where Nemec plays incredible while Kovy slips a bit - I wouldn’t find it to be a loser move to trade from a position of strength to upgrade somewhere else.

Obviously Kovy’s play this necessitates keeping him
In our lineup, I hope it continues.
barring some enormous collapse, we shouldn't be selling anything at the deadline, let alone half of one of the best shutdown defensive units in the entire league.

we can upgrade at the deadline so many different ways (hell, grits might be coming over at that point) but this would be a terrible route. definitely a loser move to make.
 

dgibb10

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So a 2nd then lol?

Not sure how you see Graves as a rental getting us back a young roster player or a high end prospect.

I doubt he would have gotten us a 1st either nor can you assume we would have drafted Musty.
Graves would have gotten us assets. Whether it's the Tanev deal of 2nd+prospect (they got identical offseason contracts by the way), or the Orlov deal, or the Gavrikov deal.

He too was having an excellent season as part of one of a top tier shutdown pair.

And then you preserve assets when you go out and get a piece like Meier.

Eg: we trade Graves for a 1st

then:

1st+1st+Zetterlund+2nd for meier (keeping us Shakir)

or
1st+1st+Shakir for Meier (keeping us zetterlund+2nd)

or the trade we made for meier, keeping us a 1st
 

dgibb10

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If you trade away players at the 2023 deadline then you don't get a playoff run.

No expectations last year and we still have Ruff to end the season. Fitz gets fired and we go into a new rebuild with Chuck Fletcher as our new GM and Travis Green as our coach.
Trading away Ryan Graves (who got outscored 7-1 in those playoffs 5v5) and bringing in Luke vs the rangers would not have hurt our playoff run lmao.

I would keep the defenseman that has been excellent, and wouldn’t even consider trading him. I would also extend him. Graves wasn’t any good even when he was moderately successful with Marino — and it still would’ve been crazy to subtract from the team that year.

Just trade a pick or whatever for a forward if you want one. Nemec and or Casey also very well could be needed depth if injuries happen. I’d almost bet on it happening.
Trading away picks and taking away from our asset pool when it is likely that, come playoff time, Nemec will likely be the better option than Kovacevic anyway would be foolish.

We'd be in a much better spot today if we had sold Graves at the deadline 2 years ago.
 
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My3Sons

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Trading away Ryan Graves (who got outscored 7-1 in those playoffs 5v5) and bringing in Luke would not have hurt our playoff run lmao.


Trading away picks and taking away from our asset pool when it is likely that, come playoff time, Nemec will likely be the better option than Kovacevic anyway would be foolish.

We'd be in a much better spot today if we had sold Graves at the deadline 2 years ago.
It's always easy to assess this stuff with hindsight and yes, you can always suggest that if your likely outcome is just a playoff spot without a serious likelihood of a cup run you should just trade expiring vets that will return something when you can replace them to some extent. But this isn't a video game. The guys in the room are people. You have to be careful how you handle that dynamic. The mercenary approach from management at the deadline in what is supposed to be a good season isn't the message you want to send. I understand your grand plan and with respect to Meier it makes more sense since they always wanted to extend him, but right now, NJ has to cap space to extend Kovacevic, let alone any other player they would trade him for. Your idea is interesting and I get the appeal but adding a LW2 or RW2 over a RD2 is kinda sorta a lateral move anyway. You aren't getting a long term piece for Kovacevic and you aren't flipping whatever the return is and another pick or prospect for a good long term piece. Just my thoughts.
 

dgibb10

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It's always easy to assess this stuff with hindsight and yes, you can always suggest that if your likely outcome is just a playoff spot without a serious likelihood of a cup run you should just trade expiring vets that will return something when you can replace them to some extent. But this isn't a video game. The guys in the room are people. You have to be careful how you handle that dynamic. The mercenary approach from management at the deadline in what is supposed to be a good season isn't the message you want to send. I understand your grand plan and with respect to Meier it makes more sense since they always wanted to extend him, but right now, NJ has to cap space to extend Kovacevic, let alone any other player they would trade him for. Your idea is interesting and I get the appeal but adding a LW2 or RW2 over a RD2 is kinda sorta a lateral move anyway. You aren't getting a long term piece for Kovacevic and you aren't flipping whatever the return is and another pick or prospect for a good long term piece. Just my thoughts.
As good as Kovacevic has played, I'd still rather have Nemec than Kovacevic in the lineup going into the playoffs come april/may. The same as Luke over Graves back then.

Wasting an full ELC year of Nemec in the AHL this year after missing out on his slide year last year in a lost season would be disappointing asset management for a team who needs to be taking advantage of bargain ELCs.

Having extra assets allows you do so much. You can use it as part of a package get the big fish, you can buy a guy like Cotter, you can buy multi year retention like the leafs got on McCabe, you can use it to dump a bad contract like Palat.

If you want to add a top 6 forward, a 4c this season, and dump palat, that is something that decimates our already shallow pool of assets. probably looking at 1st to dump palat, at least a pair of 2nds for the forwards.

If you are not confident enough in our 2nd overall pick, who was rock solid last year, to be a quality dmen for our playoff run in april/may, then frankly yeah, ship Nemec out.

I am.
 

NjDevsRR

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We talking selling?
 

dgibb10

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Lacking defensive depth is one of many reasons that last year went south for us the way that it did. You can't convince me in any way that if we're contending this season, we're flipping Kovacevic. Especially when he is a part of one of the best defensive pairings in the league to this point in the season.
And if we had traded Graves we could have used those extra assets to get defensive depth, such as buying Chris Tanev, or Zadorov, or Hanifin, or M Pettersson, etc etc.

Having a draft pick increases in value as it gets closer to the draft.

Kovacevic is a depreciating asset who's value goes to 0 the second the trade deadline goes.
And you can't get back a Simon Nemec year at 950k
 

AfroThunder396

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I'm dead serious.

If he keeps this up, I'd sell him at the deadline as the top rental RD.

I am more than comfortable going into playoffs with

Hughes-Pesce
Siegs-Hamilton
Dillon-Nemec
Casey

If I can turn Kovacevic into assets which can be used in other spots I'm all over it. View attachment 930644
This, while still keeping a pair of 2nds.


Same way last year I wanted to try and turn Toffoli into pieces to get a Hanifin or Pettersson and have Holtz slide into that sniper role before the season went to full shit.


Same way I wanted to try and sell Graves as a rental 2 years ago to save us assets on the Meier deal and have him be replaced by Luke and Bahl heading into playoffs. We'd probably have had an extra late 1st in 2023, OR Shakir still, or Zetterlund+2nd in 2024, and graves wasn't even that useful in the playoffs.
If Kovacevich gives us a better chance to win than Nemec now then he'll give us a better chance to win in May. I don't feel comfortable having a sophomore who lost his job suddenly have all of this pressure thrust onto him. Quality depth wins you games in the playoffs and we haven't had quality depth since 2012.
 

SteveCangialosi123

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Trading away picks and taking away from our asset pool when it is likely that, come playoff time, Nemec will likely be the better option than Kovacevic anyway would be foolish.

We'd be in a much better spot today if we had sold Graves at the deadline 2 years ago.
There is nothing to support the idea that Nemec will likely be better than Kovacevic this season, especially in the role he is playing (anchor on the PK, shutdown pairing). You just don’t trade a player like that when you’re pushing for the playoffs.

Nothing would be different if we traded Graves 2 years ago. Picking up some extra non 1st round draft pick changes little. Deal was never, ever happening during that season anyway.
 

dgibb10

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There is nothing to support the idea that Nemec will likely be better than Kovacevic this season, especially in the role he is playing (anchor on the PK, shutdown pairing). You just don’t trade a player like that when you’re pushing for the playoffs.

Nothing would be different if we traded Graves 2 years ago. Picking up some extra non 1st round draft pick changes little. Deal was never, ever happening during that season anyway.
Nemec is a 20 year old 2nd overall pick who was excellent last year.

If you aren't confident in him playing on the 3rd pairing come playoff time then you should be advocating trading Nemec.
 
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dgibb10

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If Kovacevich gives us a better chance to win than Nemec now then he'll give us a better chance to win in May. I don't feel comfortable having a sophomore who lost his job suddenly have all of this pressure thrust onto him. Quality depth wins you games in the playoffs and we haven't had quality depth since 2012.
If you can turn Kovacevic into a 4C and 2LW (something like Jake Evans and Vatrano), that improves our depth without giving up assets. If you're that scared of Casey playing then go get a colin miller type as well.


in lineup: Evans, Vatrano, Nemec
injury depth: Bastian, Tatar, Casey, Desimone (or a Miller type if you're a coward)

vs
in lineup: Bastian, Tatar, Kovacevic
injury depth: Dowling, Macdermid, Nemec, Casey

I'll take the depth AND the lineup in scenario A in a heartbeat

I don't understand why so many people are against having actual defensive depth. Especially when in the past, we have been begging for it.

We have plenty of draft picks to dangle as it is. We have three 2nds in this coming draft. What would another 2nd or 3rd round pick do for us right now?
We currently have MacDermid and Dowling as a 4th line and as our injury replacements at F.
 

SteveCangialosi123

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Nemec is a 20 year old 2nd overall pick who was excellent last year.

If you aren't confident in him playing on the 3rd pairing come playoff time then you should be advocating trading Nemec.
Don’t care where he was picked, that stops mattering very quickly. You have to earn your spot in the lineup, Kovacevic did that. When he stops being one of the best dmen in the NHL, we can have a conversation.

1731622667459.jpeg


I’m not low on Nemec at all. But you obviously don’t bench or trade this guy. Kovacevic is providing incredible value now, Nemec should do so over the course of the next decade.

Don’t want to hear about “depreciating assets”, I’ll just enjoy watching my team play.
 

dgibb10

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If Kovacevich gives us a better chance to win than Nemec now then he'll give us a better chance to win in May. I don't feel comfortable having a sophomore who lost his job suddenly have all of this pressure thrust onto him. Quality depth wins you games in the playoffs and we haven't had quality depth since 2012.
Depth does not win you playoff series.

The guys in your lineup do.
 

Zajacs Bowl Cut

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If you can turn Kovacevic into a 4C and 2LW (something like Jake Evans and Vatrano), that improves our depth without giving up assets. If you're that scared of Casey playing then go get a colin miller type as well.


in lineup: Evans, Vatrano, Nemec
injury depth: Bastian, Tatar, Casey, Desimone (or a Miller type if you're a coward)

vs
in lineup: Bastian, Tatar, Kovacevic
injury depth: Dowling, Macdermid, Nemec, Casey

I'll take the depth AND the lineup in scenario A in a heartbeat


We currently have MacDermid and Dowling as a 4th line and as our injury replacements at F.

great, so trade a ~3rd round pick for a legit 4th line Center at the deadline. There is no need to trade Kovacevic.
 
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Guttersniped

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Graves would have gotten us assets. Whether it's the Tanev deal of 2nd+prospect (they got identical offseason contracts by the way), or the Orlov deal, or the Gavrikov deal.

He too was having an excellent season as part of one of a top tier shutdown pair.

And then you preserve assets when you go out and get a piece like Meier.

Eg: we trade Graves for a 1st

then:

1st+1st+Zetterlund+2nd for meier (keeping us Shakir)

or
1st+1st+Shakir for Meier (keeping us zetterlund+2nd)

or the trade we made for meier, keeping us a 1st

Again, they were pretty specific in their ask for Meier, so it had to include a top prospect and young prospect player so we aren’t getting out of losing Zetterlund & Muk.

If you want believe that Graves would have gotten a 1st, knock yourself out, but mentioning those other trades doesn’t convince me.

Chris Tanev got a 2nd, a 3rd and a depth defensive prospect. Also, Tanev is better and their contracts aren’t comparable as Tanev is 5 years older and his deal ends when he’s 40.

Gavrikov and Korpisalo together got a 1st, a 3rd and Quick, so there’s more going on there.

Orlov is better and had 72 playoff games played, including a Cup run. His deal included Hathaway, together they got a 1st, 2nd and 3rd.

Playoff teams don’t trade top four defenseman before the playoffs just to get a pick. A late 1st isn’t a haul.

And to bring this around to this season, I don’t see Fitz trading Kovacevic for a 2nd (if we’re lucky). If you’re arguing he’d get a 1st you’re nuts.
 

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