Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - camp edition

[None Shall Pass]

Am I misremember the Labanc situation? If I'm remembering properly, he took $1M because SJ was capped-out and they wink-wink-nudge-nudged a better extension with him for the next season.

 

[Bleedred]

Am I misremember the Labanc situation? If I'm remembering properly, he took $1M because SJ was capped-out and they wink-wink-nudge-nudged a better extension with him for the next season.

That is what happened.

I was just shocked at the time, as were Sharks fans that he took such a cheap deal to help them out with the cap. That was something that surprised everyone around the league.

I thought the Devils could take advantage of the Sharks cap situation by trying to acquire him, since the Sharks didn't look like they'd be able to afford him the next year and he was young and had shown a lot of promise at the time.

But the Sharks were able to get him to sign for that, which no one could have imagined if suggested before that.

I think he wound up getting almost $5 million (like $4.7?) a year for 4 years on his next deal.

He underwhelmed a bit on the one year deal for a million, though it was still a bargain at that price, but that may have cost him a few dollars when he did sign the next year.

 

[My3Sons]

Pavel Zacha Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Salary, Title | Hockey-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of Pavel Zacha. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, trade, draft, salary and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

Not really, 116 Pts in 160 games at +38 with a selke vote is a very different player than 179 points in 386 games at -66

Yes and no. He's improved, but you can't really compare a 20-24 year old Zacha to the fully matured and current Zacha. He showed promise with NJ but was not consistent. In fact, if you look at 20-21 Zacha was pacing for similar totals to his numbers in Boston. His 1 goal in 13 playoff games with Boston doesn't look so great though. I like him and Boston put him in a good spot to succeed compared to NJ who wanted him to be a core player and he could never quite get there.

 

[Better Call Sal]

Pavel Zacha Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Salary, Title | Hockey-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of Pavel Zacha. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, trade, draft, salary and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

Not really, 116 Pts in 160 games at +38 with a selke vote is a very different player than 179 points in 386 games at -66

Not exactly a fair comparison. Zacha was viewed as the first piece of the rebuild and as a player who had all the tools to become a top flight scorer in the league. Whether it was that he was a bit rushed development wise, toyed with a bit by Hynes or that he just didn't have the confidence in his younger years that he did now, he was never going to reach the potential he was viewed to have when we picked him #6 overall. He also demonstrated that he was never going to pan out as being a center for us and played his best on the wing. It was in the best interest of both parties for a change of scenery. And honestly, I think Zacha is probably as comfortable and confident as he's ever been because he trained in New England in the offseasons for a while now and met his now wife there, so it was almost a perfect scenario for him to be traded there.

I like Zacha, but he is more of a complementary piece rather than what he was viewed as potentially when we chose him. He gets to ride shotgun alongside a perennial MVP candidate in David Pastrnak, and that appears to have done wonders for him so far since that is his most consistent linemate. But I think he ran out of time of ever becoming better here. And personally, for what he has offered while he's been here, I'd rather have Haula.

 

[Xirik]

I'm really rooting hard for Stillman to carve out a role for us. So many people have written him off already before he's even gotten a chance in the show. I know the odds of him amounting to more than a bottom 6 role are slim, but I'd like to see what he officially offers before labeling him as a bust.

If he can come in and be an energy and pest guy while potting in a couple goals I'll be happy.

--
watching the post camp interview it was nice hearing Squires and Casey talk about work ethic and being competitive. You still need talent and skill but a good work ethic can take you places.

 

[Hockey Sports Fan]

It's weird that so many people are willing to call Stillman a horrible pick but not McLeod....In my view, it's virtually the same type of pick with slightly varying level of magnitude in draft position and talent.

Hold on, McLeod was absolutely not a bad pick. He was drafted right where he was ranked and there weren't any obvious sliders (I was hoping Nylander or Jost would fall and both have been disappointing). Shero should be commended for stealing Ottawa's 3rd just for trading back one spot, since Logan Brown and basically every other forward taken in round 1 has been disappointing besides Tage Thompson.

Sure no one would scoff at Charlie McAvoy now, but back then everyone knew we needed forwards (and centers), and McLeod's play in the 18 months prior to his embarrassing departure made him look leagues more valuable than the next 7 forwards taken after him. And Tage Thompson, the 8th forward, looked like a bust for like 6 years after he was drafted.

But everyone knew Stillman had the ceiling of a 4th liner the instant he was drafted. The pick was widely panned and deservedly so. It was evidence of a bad process while the McLeod pick was just evidence of a weak draft.

 

[Darkauron]

Mcleod had his role and he did it amazingly. Was a great bottom sixer and one of the best FO guys in the league.

But saying that im glad he's gone for what he and others did

 

[My3Sons]

Mcleod had his role and he did it amazingly. Was a great bottom sixer and one of the best FO guys in the league.

But saying that im glad he's gone for what he and others did

McLeod had just begun to round out his game when he had to go. Had he stayed he probably would have been a reasonably good third line center. Obviously you can say the better pick would have been the defender but I think the consensus guy in that spot would have been Chychrun, not McAvoy? In any event, with the salary cap being what it is, you have to be able to win while guys are on their second contracts. It gets hard if you are paying a lot of guys UFA type money, even if they perform.

 

[Lou Bloom]

Hold on, McLeod was absolutely not a bad pick. He was drafted right where he was ranked and there weren't any obvious sliders (I was hoping Nylander or Jost would fall and both have been disappointing). Shero should be commended for stealing Ottawa's 3rd just for trading back one spot, since Logan Brown and basically every other forward taken in round 1 has been disappointing besides Tage Thompson.

Sure no one would scoff at Charlie McAvoy now, but back then everyone knew we needed forwards (and centers), and McLeod's play in the 18 months prior to his embarrassing departure made him look leagues more valuable than the next 7 forwards taken after him. And Tage Thompson, the 8th forward, looked like a bust for like 6 years after he was drafted.

But everyone knew Stillman had the ceiling of a 4th liner the instant he was drafted. The pick was widely panned and deservedly so. It was evidence of a bad process while the McLeod pick was just evidence of a weak draft.

I disagree, that's just appealing to internet/media draft consensus, Just because you don't follow the internet/media consensus doesn't mean the process was bad.

And saying Stillman had a ceiling of a 4th liner the instant he was drafted is a ridiculous statement. Blake Coleman and Tyler Bertuzzi were way bigger recent draft day reaches that were described as grinder type players, just because a draft report describes a player as a grinder or says a player is best suited for a bottom 6 role doesn't mean that puts a strict cap on their potential.

 

[BurntToast]

After reading multiple pages of draft strategy, it’s safe to say it’s still unpredictable and full of luck.

1. Who will be available at any giving moment is luck. Winning the draft lottery is luck. Having a player get injured right after the draft is bad luck.

Look at the Knight situation promising goaltender, does well enough to get a good contract and then he goes into the player assistance program. We wanted Askarov but his own team didn’t want him as a backup. Look at 2017 a bunch of people wanted Patrick and the guy is done. Here is another example, a team drafts an amazing 3rd line center in the first round who was having a career year and then he turns out to be a sicko.

2.) What part of post draft development falls under the team vs the player in terms of responsibility. I think Holtz’s situation is partly the teams fault for leaving him on the bench all season.

There is so many factors. There are some teams who do better, but there isn’t 1 columnist or scout who can correctly predict draft player outcomes.

I am also curious about talent predictability and human development. How do you prefect a persons peak or peak duration?

Brad Marchand had talent but his peak was at 29 and lasted only 4 years, took a slight dip, but the guy is close to 70 point at 36. He was good but not great but those season. His early stats are similar to Mercers.

 

[Lou is God]

Crossing my fingers he’s just a warm body for camp, but the Welinski PTO makes me feel like something might be up with Nemec.

Has there been any word on his status other than coming to NJ to get evaluated last week?

Simon is believed to be fine.

 

[Bleedred]

Crossing my fingers he’s just a warm body for camp, but the Welinski PTO makes me feel like something might be up with Nemec.

Has there been any word on his status other than coming to NJ to get evaluated last week?

I mean we already have 2 extra bodies on the right side between Kovacevic and DeSimone (possibly Casey too). I’m not reading into that one. Especially when we have 3 games after the main team leaves for Prague. They need extra vets this year

Simon is believed to be fine.

I never heard of this Welinski guy before today, but after looking him up, it's pretty clear this is either an extra to keep home when everyone else goes to Europe and/or someone looking for an AHL contract.

He's 31 years old and has played only 46 NHL games in his career. The last one coming in 20-21.

At best he's this year's version of Tyler Wotherspoon, who got a PTO several years ago, but never played an NHL game for us in the regular season, but did spend the next 3 years after that PTO in Utica.

 

[Patrik26]

Am I misremember the Labanc situation? If I'm remembering properly, he took $1M because SJ was capped-out and they wink-wink-nudge-nudged a better extension with him for the next season.

You didn't misremember. That's what went down.

 

[Moist ReadOnly]

Am I misremember the Labanc situation? If I'm remembering properly, he took $1M because SJ was capped-out and they wink-wink-nudge-nudged a better extension with him for the next season.

Which is not allowed but since it was San Jose and not New Jersey, no penalty was assessed

 

[Bleedred]

Which is not allowed but since it was San Jose and not New Jersey, no penalty was assessed

It's allowed

I don't think teams care too much when other teams are doing this. I bet it pisses the union off. I wouldn't be surprised if it annoys players of similar ability when a player takes that little.

 

[JimEIV]

Welinski is a career minor leaguer. He's probably a good guy getting a chance to show himself because of being a good guy. Maybe an add for Utica?

 

[Bleedred]

Welinski is a career minor leaguer. He's probably a good guy getting a chance to show himself because of being a good guy. Maybe an add for Utica?

I think that's what he is.

I cited Tyler Wotherspoon, who was a career minor leaguer that came in on a PTO 3 years ago. After he took that PTO he wound up getting a contract with Utica and that's where he stayed for the next 3 years. He didn't play a single NHL regular season game for us though. It looks like he's signed with Laval (the AHL Canadiens) for this year.

I think that's probably what we'll see from Welinski, if he actually does get a contract.

I think even Colton White is ahead of him on the depth chart, since he actually gets NHL call ups and some games annually. And then there's still quite a set of other guys in between Nemec and Colton White. I don't think Welinski has any bearing on an injury with a player from the NHL team.

I think we've lost quite a few guys and some if he's ever playing regular season games here.

 

[Moist ReadOnly]

It's allowed

I don't think teams care too much when other teams are doing this. I bet it pisses the union off. I wouldn't be surprised if it annoys players of similar ability when a player takes that little.

Its not allowed per the CBA, hence it was hush-hush

Teams are not permitted to promise future earnings or make payments in other ways, in a manner that would influence a contract's negotiation

What can be done is discussing making less now so the team can save cap space - what was done was a step further and promised future earnings to make up for this

Implicitness doesnt change the loophole it is, in fact, using - its allowed because the internal investigation would be a he-said/she-said and lead nowhere

San Jose was not allowed to promise future earnings in return for saving cap space at the time. It can be expected (by the player, expecting goodwill) but cannot be discussed

 

[JimEIV]

Devil's couldn't even do a wink and nod with Mercer for next season with Luke and Nemec contracts on the horizon

 

[Moist ReadOnly]

Devil's couldn't even do a wink and nod with Mercer for next season with Luke and Nemec contracts on the horizon

Wish we hadnt signed Tatar and gave that extra 1.8 to Mercer, with a total of 5.4/6 years

But Tatar will probably play well for us and the money will figure itself out; helps having the added depth as well

 

[JimEIV]

Wish we hadnt signed Tatar and gave that extra 1.8 to Mercer, with a total of 5.4/6 years

But Tatar will probably play well for us and the money will figure itself out; helps having the added depth as well

I don't think 5.4 is enough for 6 years.

It's also kinda hard to see where Tatar fits with the adds of Noesen and Cotter

 

[Moist ReadOnly]

I don't think 5.4 is enough for 6 years.

I actually think its too much, which is why I was okay with it for arguments sake

Max id give Dawson, a player who I think is vital that we keep, is 6.25 over 8 years

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Tomas Tatar has absolutely nothing to do with Dawson Mercer

I don't know why these things keep getting conflated

I also have no interest in signing Mercer for 8 years.

 

[JimEIV]

I actually think its too much, which is why I was okay with it for arguments sake

Max id give Dawson, a player who I think is vital that we keep, is 6.25 over 8 years

6.5 for 6 years it what the projections I saw a couple of months ago. 6.25 isn't buying two extra UFA years.

 

[Moist ReadOnly]

6.5 for 6 years it what the projections I saw a couple of months ago. 6.25 isn't buying two extra UFA years.

Im including into that what I feel I can afford him; models may say otherwise but I think he recognizes his role here and what he can do for a competitive team, taking money off and youll be 29-31 at the end of it (depending how long)