Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - camp edition

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Guadana

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Mar 7, 2012
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Zacha was not a Shero pick. Shero had just arrived in New Jersey 2 months before the draft. He certainly had some input into the pick, but he fired the head scout and some of the scouting staff (as well as a lot of the front office) after the draft.
Shero protection incoming.

It was and he was who made decision. He was gm. Not Lou, not ex head scout. He was there 2 months, not 2 days. We are talking about top 10 pick. He listened his scouts but he had all the list of prospects and theirs reports, he was the head who decided. And changing scouting stuff doesnt change the fact that he made decision. Changing scouting stuff only change the list of scouts who gave him scouting reports.

Jack Malone with the redirect! Woot!
Malone made interesting things not for the first time in this games.
 
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Devils731

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Jun 23, 2008
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Ty Smith's descent from nearly making the team at 18 to passable 20 year old D to playing 9 NHL games in the last two seasons is one of the strangest development arcs I have seen. I do not know why he showed up in 2021 skating slower than in '2020' but that doomed him.
If you told me that it turns out Smith has some sort of rare degenerative disease, I would believe it. He somehow looks weaker every year and I don’t think we’ve ever heard inkling that he doesn’t put in training work.
 

Triumph

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Oct 2, 2007
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Shero protection incoming.

It was and he was who made decision. He was gm. Not Lou, not ex head scout. He was there 2 months, not 2 days. We are talking about top 10 pick. He listened his scouts but he had all the list of prospects and theirs reports, he was the head who decided. And changing scouting stuff doesnt change the fact that he made decision. Changing scouting stuff only change the list of scouts who gave him scouting reports.

He had not been present for most of the scouting meetings during the season, he was at the WJCs but he was presumably scouting for Pittsburgh at that time. It's the pick he made, but it was certainly not in the way that a GM normally makes a selection - clearly the scouts had a consensus guy, all the rumors leading up to the draft were that the Devils wanted Zacha.
 
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JimEIV

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Feb 19, 2003
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Shero protection incoming.

It was and he was who made decision. He was gm. Not Lou, not ex head scout. He was there 2 months, not 2 days. We are talking about top 10 pick. He listened his scouts but he had all the list of prospects and theirs reports, he was the head who decided. And changing scouting stuff doesnt change the fact that he made decision. Changing scouting stuff only change the list of scouts who gave him scouting reports.
I hate Shero but I am not sure I would tag him on the 2016 draft...It really was a Conte draft.

Yes, at the end of the day the GM is responsible...but just coming into the organization after the previous staff worked an entire year on that draft, I'm sure Shero was more hands off for that year.

I'd definitely give him a pass for 2016.
 

TrufleShufle

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Aug 31, 2012
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I'm really rooting hard for Stillman to carve out a role for us. So many people have written him off already before he's even gotten a chance in the show. I know the odds of him amounting to more than a bottom 6 role are slim, but I'd like to see what he officially offers before labeling him as a bust.
If he carves out an actual role for himself in the bottom six and isn't just there because he's "just there" and we need someone, I would call that a win. Mcleods role became very important, good bottom 6s can help win cups. Pretty close to having a filled up non negotiable top 6 as it is.

Having a full line up of guys you want, playing exactly where they should be, should be every teams goal and we aren't far off from it. Having a 4th or even 3rd line of "leftovers" is never a recipe for success.
 

Guadana

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Mar 7, 2012
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I hate Shero but I am not sure I would tag him on the 2016 draft...It really was a Conte draft.

Yes, at the end of the day the GM is responsible...but just coming into the organization after the previous staff worked an entire year on that draft, I'm sure Shero was more hands off for that year.

I'd definitely give him a pass for 2016.
It was his draft because even if Conte made all the work - he made final decision. Thats what GMs are doing. All this "consensus guy" stories are not working because I saw tonns of videos and read a lot of articles how it is working. He was there and he was there not for a couple of days.
And even the whole draft Devils tried to find players with better upside in the depth of the draft. Im not saying about only first pick that was quite Sheroesque. Devils draft Speers ans Seney for some creativity and some hand skills, no orientation for bigger players, later defensive pick as Shero did four years straight.

Smith was okay pick but bad pick. Combination of size and lack of four way mobility on the smaller space is what makes defenseman bad on NHL level. But it was Shero - he clearly didnt understand how to build defense, how to draft defensemen, how develop them and which defenseman he needs to trade or sign from the open market.
Fitz has his own problems now with forwards - with drafting especially.
 

Triumph

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Oct 2, 2007
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It was his draft because even if Conte made all the work - he made final decision. Thats what GMs are doing. All this "consensus guy" stories are not working because I saw tonns of videos and read a lot of articles how it is working. He was there and he was there not for a couple of days.
And even the whole draft Devils tried to find players with better upside in the depth of the draft. Im not saying about only first pick that was quite Sheroesque. Devils draft Speers ans Seney for some creativity and some hand skills, no orientation for bigger players, later defensive pick as Shero did four years straight.

Smith was okay pick but bad pick. Combination of size and lack of four way mobility on the smaller space is what makes defenseman bad on NHL level. But it was Shero - he clearly didnt understand how to build defense, how to draft defensemen, how develop them and which defenseman he needs to trade or sign from the open market.
Fitz has his own problems now with forwards - with drafting especially.

This is where the language issues get difficult - I cannot parse the sentence "All this consensus guy stories are not working because I saw tonns of videos and read a lot of articles how it is working". What I am saying is that all of the scuttlebutt leading up to the draft was that the Devils wanted Zacha. Who was putting that out, I am not sure, maybe it was Shero. But there's some fun cognitive dissonance insisting on Shero making the first pick (big, physical player) and then that the lower picks were also his (small, good hands players). Speers and Seney fit in perfectly with the MO of a team that took guys like Boucher and Kerfoot a few years back. Again, there's input from the GM, but the draft list was mostly made without his direction.
 

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It was his draft because even if Conte made all the work - he made final decision. Thats what GMs are doing. All this "consensus guy" stories are not working because I saw tonns of videos and read a lot of articles how it is working. He was there and he was there not for a couple of days.
And even the whole draft Devils tried to find players with better upside in the depth of the draft. Im not saying about only first pick that was quite Sheroesque. Devils draft Speers ans Seney for some creativity and some hand skills, no orientation for bigger players, later defensive pick as Shero did four years straight.

Smith was okay pick but bad pick. Combination of size and lack of four way mobility on the smaller space is what makes defenseman bad on NHL level. But it was Shero - he clearly didnt understand how to build defense, how to draft defensemen, how develop them and which defenseman he needs to trade or sign from the open market.
Fitz has his own problems now with forwards - with drafting especially.
I think Fitz has tunnel vision which he transmits to the scouts when it comes to forwards. His recorded speech about finding passionate players because they are more likely to make it for example. He's not wrong and I think it's similar to STI's commentary about competitiveness. But what about the other skills and intellect that goes into playing hockey? Despite the seeming focus on size with Silayev, Traff, and Pikkarainen, this past draft was much better than his few prior drafts in terms of approach as I see it. At least the guys he picked in Traff and Pikkarainen aren't total stiffs. They can at least play and aren't just big. They picked two goalies and invested in one fairly high up so they clearly liked him. Melovsky has some skill and can potentially jump in with Utica this season so not a bad flyer to take with a late round pick. You can't win in the NHL with an entire lineup of 5'10" 175 pound skill players up front and on defense but you also can't win with a full lineup of grinding big forwards with mediocre skill. The game is too fast now and I wonder if Fitz sees that? When he talks it's to say how "hard" it is to play in the NHL but my impression is he's talking hitting and physical play as opposed to just how fast it is now.
 

JimEIV

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Feb 19, 2003
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The Devils were never afraid to draft small sized guys... I'm not sure where this notion came from Gomez, Gionta...2003 was loaded with smaller skilled guys Parise, Petr Vrana and Zach Tarkir...many said Parise was too fragile to stand up to the rigors of the NhL for full season predraft..lol. Hello Tedenby with Carlson on the board?

In the later rounds we regularly drafted smaller skilled players...The OG Steve Sullivan

But there were many more like Kerfoot, Kory Nagy, Tony Romano, Joey Tenute

Heck, guys like Petr Sykora, Jacob Josefson, Brendan Morrison, Alyn McCaughly off the top of my head weren't very imposing physically.
 

Guadana

Registered User
Mar 7, 2012
8,350
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St Petersburg
This is where the language issues get difficult - I cannot parse the sentence "All this consensus guy stories are not working because I saw tonns of videos and read a lot of articles how it is working". What I am saying is that all of the scuttlebutt leading up to the draft was that the Devils wanted Zacha. Who was putting that out, I am not sure, maybe it was Shero. But there's some fun cognitive dissonance insisting on Shero making the first pick (big, physical player) and then that the lower picks were also his (small, good hands players). Speers and Seney fit in perfectly with the MO of a team that took guys like Boucher and Kerfoot a few years back. Again, there's input from the GM, but the draft list was mostly made without his direction.
If Devils wanted Zacha - it doesnt mean Shero didnt want Zacha. May be it was specifically Sheros desire to draft him, may be he liked what scouts said. Decision on the draft day is on his shoulders. Zacha-Seney-Speers argument is bad as always. So Mcleod wasnt the pick of Shero too. Yeah.
 

Guadana

Registered User
Mar 7, 2012
8,350
22,377
St Petersburg
I think Fitz has tunnel vision which he transmits to the scouts when it comes to forwards. His recorded speech about finding passionate players because they are more likely to make it for example. He's not wrong and I think it's similar to STI's commentary about competitiveness. But what about the other skills and intellect that goes into playing hockey? Despite the seeming focus on size with Silayev, Traff, and Pikkarainen, this past draft was much better than his few prior drafts in terms of approach as I see it. At least the guys he picked in Traff and Pikkarainen aren't total stiffs. They can at least play and aren't just big. They picked two goalies and invested in one fairly high up so they clearly liked him. Melovsky has some skill and can potentially jump in with Utica this season so not a bad flyer to take with a late round pick. You can't win in the NHL with an entire lineup of 5'10" 175 pound skill players up front and on defense but you also can't win with a full lineup of grinding big forwards with mediocre skill. The game is too fast now and I wonder if Fitz sees that? When he talks it's to say how "hard" it is to play in the NHL but my impression is he's talking hitting and physical play as opposed to just how fast it is now.
Yeah, we cant win with 10 Bastians. Even if we will have a couple from this huge Bastianesque squad. I understand his desire to find big physical scorer but he should work on the other markets too, try to find solutions for other problems from systemic point of view.
Overall I would say roster problems could be solve on the draft, but mostly its much better to work on the market, in the same time overall system should have different type of players to solve the problems of the roster if they suddenly form. And of course its better to pick for potential upside.

But when Fitz is trying to find bottom line physical scorer just because he doesnt have it in the roster, its a problem he doesnt pick for upside and even for system need. We have many potential physical scorers. Some are better some are worser. But we dont have potential playmakers, playdrivers, defensive center, two way centers, defensive wingers with motor and good positional game.
We have Gritsyuk, who is potential scorer(and who was drafted in 2019), we have physical wingers with scoring potential(or without it) in Stillman, Traff, Pikka, Hauser, Brown, Graham, Filmon(more scorer with physical potential, not actually physical). Even actual signed or traded players like Beckman, Halonen, Wendt are more physical/scoring(or both) wingers.
Only Squires looks like a player who can create situations for other players and play solid without the puck all over the ice. Again - potentially.
I like Melovsky. May be not so happy with him as the pick but still its very good where he was drafted. From games I saw and from actual performance on the tournament he played pretty accurately, nice positioning all over the ice, especially on the blue lines. I hope he has some defensive potential, but it looks like he is the only forward who has it may be with Squires(I dont know how it will work for him on adult or especially on NHL level), and its not like he is dynamic to have this "number one defensive forward on the line" potential.

So yeah, I really dont like how Fitz is working with forwards on the draft from strategic point of view even if I like some player outside the context of the draft.
 

Brodeur

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
26,597
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San Diego
Shero protection incoming.

It was and he was who made decision. He was gm. Not Lou, not ex head scout. He was there 2 months, not 2 days. We are talking about top 10 pick. He listened his scouts but he had all the list of prospects and theirs reports, he was the head who decided. And changing scouting stuff doesnt change the fact that he made decision. Changing scouting stuff only change the list of scouts who gave him scouting reports.

It's not too unusual to see teams fire a GM after a season and then hire somebody new right before the draft. Typically the new GM will defer to the incumbent scouts if they hadn't been that involved on the amateur side leading up to it.

LA hired Dean Lombardi a month before the 2006 Draft. He let LA's scouts take Jonathan Bernier and Trevor Lewis in the first round. But allegedly Lombardi intervened in the second round when the scouts wanted to take Milan Lucic with pick #48 (he'd then go #50 to Boston). Lombardi inherited a Kings prospect pool with no defense, so he insisted that the scouts take a defenseman (LA would take Joe Ryan who didn't pan out). A few months after that draft, Lombardi canned the scouts and hired new ones.

Similarly, Tampa Bay convinced Steve Yzerman to take the job right before the 2010 Draft. As I understand it, the Brett Connolly pick was more the scouts than Yzerman. Like Lombardi, Yzerman fired the Tampa scouts after that draft and hired his own including head scout Al Murray who was part of Lombardi's purge in LA.

Shero did try to trade down a couple spots from #6 but Columbus refused the bait. The Lombardi/Lucic story also reminded me of Shero at the 2016 Draft getting a little antsy that our scouts hadn't drafted a D. We only drafted one D in 2015 and then used our first six picks in 2016 on five forwards and a goalie. They'd take Yegor Rykov with our next pick.
 

NjDevsRR

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Apr 24, 2012
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Been in Nashville all weekend.

Miss anything?
IMG_2305.png
 

NjDevsRR

Anything Can Happen In Jersey
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Apr 24, 2012
29,653
60,701
Belmar
Have fun? I'm going for the first time in February, any suggestions/recommendations?
Been here 7 times. I went for IndyCar and Keane at the Ryman.

Nash has gotten very Vegas Country the last few years but definitely look up the old school vibes bars, those are the best. Nudie’s is my fav and no its not a strip joint (OH MY)
 

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