Post-Game Talk: devils @ Rangers -- 4/17/21

[Rempe73]

i just dont get the purpose of that chaty. It really doesnt show anything useful at all. It doesnt even tell u who had a decent game or not.

it really is just a useless chart which i dont know why u keep showing.

so let me ask u. What do u take away from looking at that chart?

and how does it compare to what u see when u watch the game?

What insights are u getting from the chart?

Im really curious as to that.

I was a doubter of analytics too, but Machinehead really convinced me that they do tell you something. They aren’t the end all be all. No one is claiming that. But driving possession and creating scoring chances (as well as limiting them) is important. I for one am thankful that he posts the charts because I wouldn’t know where to find some of them (or it would take me a while).

 

[ohbaby]

the only pattern i see is that these charts dont mean shit to what happened in the game. They are laughably bad. Guys who had great games are rated poorly and people who play like crap somehow rate well.

I like charts. Im an analyst in real life. My job is to tell the story behind the data. And the data u have is completely disconnected what actually happened. Its a useless chart. Thats my problem.

Most advanced stats people love to ahow thyey can create a chart. Good for u. But the chart sucks.

When I was younger, I use to create board games, making the probabilities of an action with the roll of the dice or a spin of the needle. Later on, I created my own attributes of players in the EA Sports NHL 2004 video game. That was the last year you could go in and tweak the attributes of the players. Also create new players, so that game could be updated every season. There are still leagues playing that game today with 2021 players. So what I'm saying is probabilities are based on accumulated stats. So I couldn't agree more on how important the data must come from a large enough sample to be sound and accurate to base any conclusions or insights.

 

[ohbaby]

true, he actually is sneaky defensively and picks pockets well.

Panarin is even better than that. Did nobody see his check in the netural zone, as he was getting off the ice, that led directly to Zibad setting up Buch for the onetimer? That play would have never developed without his defensive effort. It is not easy to check anyone in open ice and force the turnover. He makes defensive plays like that every night that lead directly to scoring chances.

 

[Rempe73]

Can’t argue with that. Numbers don’t lie, while the eye test is much more subjective.

 

[Rempe73]

When I was younger, I use to create board games, making the probabilities of an action with the roll of the dice or a spin of the needle. Later on, I created my own attributes of players in the EA Sports NHL 2004 video game. That was the last year you could go in and tweak the attributes of the players. Also create new players, so that game could be updated every season. There are still leagues playing that game today with 2021 players. So what I'm saying is probabilities are based on accumulated stats. So I couldn't agree more on how important the data must come from a large enough sample to be sound and accurate.

Whoa that’s pretty cool. What do you mean by leagues? Like, GM connected or something?

 

[CLW]

My eyes tell me Panarin cheats. My eyes also tell me Panarin is a fantastic player. My eyes also tell me the short bus line (aka kids line) don't get the same privileges because they don't have the same production yet that Panarin has, so they get their own little safe space where they don't hurt the team. On top we get told some Bullshit about "having to earn their playtime".

I see this situation as a symptom of incompetency on behalf of the coach. "But the team won" you say. Sure but that is less relevant, in the long run, than creating a good TEAM. Nobody cheats on, say, Tampa.

I don't think Quinn cares about creating a good team in that sense. I think he only cares about winning the next game. I also think that makes him the wrong coach for this team. I think the team needs a coach with a bigger vision than that.

We know there will be big changes bc of the cap situation etc. Over the next two years a lot of the players will change to create a Stanley Cup level Team (Team with a large T). I've seen nothing from Quinn that suggests he has the know how and fingerspitzengefühl to be the man for that undertaking.

 

[Rempe73]

Devils will get moved to Quebec before their team makes the playoffs again

Laughable franchise, useless fanbase, incompetent management, lousy rival

I used to hate them more than any other team (lots of fans here where I live in NJ), but honestly they’re too much of a joke for me to waste my time hating them.

However, two exceptions: Wood and Bastian. I think I hate those guys more than anyone in the league.

 

[Rempe73]

Kravtsov got most TOI out of those 4, and that's just because he plays on the same line with Howden.

The idea of that being the reason sickens me.

It would be one thing if the kids were ass, but they’re very much not. At the very least, they’re a whole lot better than Howden. I just want Howden off the team at this point. Gorton needs to idiot-proof the roster. That or fire Quinn.

 

[Pidto Files]

Even with that, Panarin is good defensively (maybe not all-world, but he's good). He's not a liability on defense at all.

His defense in the neutral zone led to Buchnevich’s 2 on 1 goal..

 

[egelband]

Yes, we should bench Panarin for sometimes conserving energy in the D zone or when defending the cycle he sometimes chooses to jump a passing lane instead of the 'right' play of taking the body. Please. When the kids show half the skill as him they can mess around like that. No one else on the team even tries to do what Panarin does, it's not like it's spreading bad habits. I don't love Quinn but Panarin having a slightly different set of rules is fine

That’s kind of a weakness of some of the advanced stats I think. They’re almost too accurate. And don’t take into account context. Which you get with the “eye test”.
Anyhow I think everyone agrees the eye test and the stats are both useful.

 

[ohbaby]

Whoa that’s pretty cool. What do you mean by leagues? Like, GM connected or something?

Online tournaments or leagues. Well they existed a year or two ago when I last looked. The Fins and the Swedes are into it. EA Sports knew we were able to tweak the game, .. so they added safe guards next year so we couldn't hack it. In short, forcing us to buy new additions every year. But that 2004 edition had really good game play at the time, and subsequent editions 2005, '06, and '07 were not as good. They also did away with the PC version of the game, so you were forced to buy a playstation if you wanted to play the newer versions. So someone created a tool in which we could get inside and tweak player attributes, create new players (rookies), change equipment, sticks, jerseys, goalie pads, helmets, etc,.. Also change rinks, jumbotrons, logos, on ice ads and the like. It was totally customizable. You could even add yourself to the game. Adding a pic of your face to one of the new players. I wasn't involved in the graphics, I just updated the rosters and tweaked the players strengths and weaknesses based on their most recent seasons. Each player had like 10 or 12 attributes you could tweak. D awareness, shot power, shot accuracy, checking ability, so on and so forth. It was a lot of work to do over 600 players. But it was a fantastically fun game. Which is why they still play it online. You didn't even need to play against anyone. You could have seasons against the computer (AI). This page gives you an idea of the game with screenshots. NHL 2004 (old-games.com)

 

[egelband]

i just dont get the purpose of that chaty. It really doesnt show anything useful at all. It doesnt even tell u who had a decent game or not.

it really is just a useless chart which i dont know why u keep showing.

so let me ask u. What do u take away from looking at that chart?

and how does it compare to what u see when u watch the game?

What insights are u getting from the chart?

Im really curious as to that.

I don’t think the chart is meant to be the be-all-end-all.

I was a doubter of analytics too, but Machinehead really convinced me that they do tell you something. They aren’t the end all be all. No one is claiming that. But driving possession and creating scoring chances (as well as limiting them) is important. I for one am thankful that he posts the charts because I wouldn’t know where to find some of them (or it would take me a while).

Exactly.
Question. Are there any metrics that adjust for context, like linemates, opponents, score...kind of “situational” analytics. I think, for a sport like hockey, the context is so massively important.

 

[egelband]

When I was younger, I use to create board games, making the probabilities of an action with the roll of the dice or a spin of the needle. Later on, I created my own attributes of players in the EA Sports NHL 2004 video game. That was the last year you could go in and tweak the attributes of the players. Also create new players, so that game could be updated every season. There are still leagues playing that game today with 2021 players. So what I'm saying is probabilities are based on accumulated stats. So I couldn't agree more on how important the data must come from a large enough sample to be sound and accurate to base any conclusions or insights.

Yes. This is one of my other concerns with stats, in general. They’re backwards-looking. Which is fine when characterizing veteran players who have been in a similar role for years. But with young players who are developing, i would be more of an “eye test” guy.

 

[egelband]

My eyes tell me Panarin cheats. My eyes also tell me Panarin is a fantastic player. My eyes also tell me the short bus line (aka kids line) don't get the same privileges because they don't have the same production yet that Panarin has, so they get their own little safe space where they don't hurt the team. On top we get told some Bullshit about "having to earn their playtime".

I see this situation as a symptom of incompetency on behalf of the coach. "But the team won" you say. Sure but that is less relevant, in the long run, than creating a good TEAM. Nobody cheats on, say, Tampa.

I don't think Quinn cares about creating a good team in that sense. I think he only cares about winning the next game. I also think that makes him the wrong coach for this team. I think the team needs a coach with a bigger vision than that.

We know there will be big changes bc of the cap situation etc. Over the next two years a lot of the players will change to create a Stanley Cup level Team (Team with a large T). I've seen nothing from Quinn that suggests he has the know how and fingerspitzengefühl to be the man for that undertaking.

I’m not so sure that Panarin getting special consideration from the coach is really a bad thing. If you ask Brett Howden, in his true heart of hearts, I bet he’s 100% fine with it.
And I’d also say Panarin’s unorthodoxy is part and parcel to the great player he is.

 

[Black Tank]

They better not relax today, hopefully yesterday's game reminded them that even trash can beat you if you don't match the compete level.

 

[ohbaby]

They better not relax today, hopefully yesterday's game reminded them that even trash can beat you if you don't match the compete level.

Today's game is big. Boston is not giving us a break. Time is running out. Need every point possible. Huge game today.

Believe it or not, we might have a better chance catching the Isles than we do Boston. Boston with their two games in hand, makes it almost impossible to catch them. But with the Isles losing their last two, and us now only 8 points behind, it could get very interesting playing them 3 more times this season. We could have a legit shot of catching them if we beat them.

If we win today, and say Philly beats the Isles, come Tuesday when we face them and beat them in regulation, we will be 4 points back,... with the Isles playing their next 3 games against the Caps, and us facing off against Philly and Buffalo. This is a very possible scenario. And after facing the Caps, the Isles will face us again the last two times. Those two games could decide our playoff hopes.

And even if Philly doesn't beat the Isles tonight, we will still have that shot to catch them. We can make our own destiny more so with the Isles than with Boston. Our playoff hopes just got a little brighter.

 

[NYRFANMANI]

re: watching noon games with your friends:

#1 "There is a bouncer in the penalty box for the players, that's awesome!"

#2 "#74 what's his name? Kravatsot?" "No, it's Kravtsov" "You sure?" "Yes" "Ok, how old is he?" "Like 21." "whaaat, he looks like he's fifteen, lol"

#3 Panarin post game presser: "Who's that? He also looks so young!" "That's Breadman, he's like 29." "Whaaaat?!"

#4 I was really bold and said "Rangers prob gonna score like 6 goals". Halfway through the game I got a little bit of shit, but in the end the team pulled through.

 

[Larrybiv]

Giannone just called him Bavel Buchnevich

I thought I had heard Bavel Puchnevich.
Poochie Poochie Poo! We love you! (Scooby Doo anyone?)

 

[Larrybiv]

I knew Kreids was on drugs. Buch was kind of okay with it, Zbad was pike get that out of my face, and Kreids was fiending.
Lol.

 

[Larrybiv]

lol Buch should do more interviews.

Please dont anyone take this the wrong way but, here goes.
I love interviews with players that have a so so understanding of the language. Tend to be better interviews as they speak the truth with "less coachspeak".
Remember Zucch's interviews? They were great, and maybe Buch could be similar. Just hate the translating. I shut it off, it irritates me as I feel its wasting my time.

 

[Larrybiv]

I’d love to try smelling salts. Just to see why everyone reacts like that. Don’t mind me. In elementary school when the teacher told us we’d get electrocuted by putting things in a socket, I went home and stuck a paper clip in a socket. I was jabbing and jabbing until I put a end in each hole. I got zapped.

That's normal "sparky". Just don't jump off a bridge. Oh wait, sorry. Just kidding.

 

[mas0764]

the only pattern i see is that these charts dont mean shit to what happened in the game. They are laughably bad. Guys who had great games are rated poorly and people who play like crap somehow rate well.

I like charts. Im an analyst in real life. My job is to tell the story behind the data. And the data u have is completely disconnected what actually happened. Its a useless chart. Thats my problem.

Most advanced stats people love to ahow thyey can create a chart. Good for u. But the chart sucks.

Well this is just flat out incorrect.

 

[mas0764]

What do you want me to say? Kreider's bar was bigger than you thought it should have been. Ok, awesome. Like, what do you want from me?

People say we shouldn't take stock in a one game sample and then you get mad at me for not micro-analyzing Chris Kreider's shot metrics from one game.

He’s an analyst in real life tho.

 

[mas0764]

I was a doubter of analytics too, but Machinehead really convinced me that they do tell you something. They aren’t the end all be all. No one is claiming that. But driving possession and creating scoring chances (as well as limiting them) is important. I for one am thankful that he posts the charts because I wouldn’t know where to find some of them (or it would take me a while).

It absolutely tells you something, it tells you scoring chance differential.

How you choose to interpret that is a different question.

 

[The S5]

Coaches use analytics as another tool to help them evaluate their team. I would say they look at the team analytics more than the individual. I would also say that most coaches are very skeptical of individual analytics. They have their place, but are far from telling a complete story.