Prospect Info: Devils picking 4th Overall.

Who do the Devils pick?


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MartyOwns

thank you shero
Apr 1, 2007
24,694
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This is an incomplete hypothetical basically and sure it might be stupid to sign Luke Hughes to a massive deal if he's a bust just to please his brothers, but in general the Devils should basically bet on Jack being a 1C and doing what makes sense with that reality even if he's not yet one. If for some reason he'd sign an 8 year deal I'd do it for example.

If the only way to build a winner is to draft one, then don't mess around, invest in your players and build from what you have, that money isn't going to a UFA, it's not going to an offer sheet. Build around and find guys that support Jack, his brothers would be a likely good example of those would could off the ice at the very least. If Jack Hughes tops out as a Matt Duchene type or something, then maybe you can trade him, but they should try and build around him, sitting back is pointless.

no no- i’m fine with the devils betting that jack can anchor a first line, but it is insanely premature to say we should bring in his entire family.

there’s a big difference between sitting back and acquiring all of a guy’s brothers. you can’t really do that in a cap era unless they are taking discounts, which is unrealistic. so if you do it, you’d better be sure that core wins you a cup because if you’re spending 1/3rd of your cap on 3 players, your lineup is going to suffer in other places.
 

Poppy Whoa Sonnet

J'Accuse!
Jan 24, 2007
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no no- i’m fine with the devils betting that jack can anchor a first line, but it is insanely premature to say we should bring in his entire family.

there’s a big difference between sitting back and acquiring all of a guy’s brothers. you can’t really do that in a cap era unless they are taking discounts, which is unrealistic. so if you do it, you’d better be sure that core wins you a cup because if you’re spending 1/3rd of your cap on 3 players, your lineup is going to suffer in other places.

Well part of this is just having fun talking about the idea on a message board. But you can acquire one of his brothers by drafting him. That might end up being a no-brainer this July. Then the other brother it only takes Quinn Hughes pulling a trouba for that to happen. We're seeing NBA stars basically building teams themselves, it could happen in the NHL. It's a fun idea and not outrageous imo.

Sure it's premature to say we should invest 7-10 million AAV in Luke Hughes, but Jack and Quinn I think are almost there and Quinn might even take a discount to play with his brothers. This dream of having like an entire team of guys on ELCs and dominating the league is just not going to happen, gotta pay your players some day.
 

StevenToddIves

Registered User
May 18, 2013
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Brooklyn, NY


Obviously just projections and he could develop into a star, but I found this interesting nonetheless. Wonder if Buffalo is absolutely taking him 1OA.


I would take Byron Bader with a grain of salt. He's one of those stat guys who is constantly pushing his own model as irrefutable truth. Star probability percentage? I mean, come on. First you have to suspend disbelief to accept his definition of "star", then you have to suspend more disbelief to accept his mathematical algorithms of probability, then you have to chug a gallon of snake oil. We're only a half decade removed from John Chayka claiming he had invented his own metrics which were superior to all the other metrics and then somehow hoodwinking his way into getting hired by an NHL franchise and turning into one of the worst GMs in NHL history. Tom Rowe's revolutionary method of using analytics to run a franchise took Florida from first place to last place in a single season.

Bader's underselling Power sells Bader. If Power turns into a great NHLer, Bader will dismiss it as "luck" and go on inventing numbers. If Power struggles at all, Bader will scream it from the roof-tops and use it as ammunition to sell his own statistical model. The fact that Power is a kid trying to achieve a dream is immaterial to Bader, who doesn't care who he has to kick around in order to worm his way into a cushy NHL job.
 

Triumph

Registered User
Oct 2, 2007
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I would take Byron Bader with a grain of salt. He's one of those stat guys who is constantly pushing his own model as irrefutable truth. Star probability percentage? I mean, come on. First you have to suspend disbelief to accept his definition of "star", then you have to suspend more disbelief to accept his mathematical algorithms of probability, then you have to chug a gallon of snake oil. We're only a half decade removed from John Chayka claiming he had invented his own metrics which were superior to all the other metrics and then somehow hoodwinking his way into getting hired by an NHL franchise and turning into one of the worst GMs in NHL history. Tom Rowe's revolutionary method of using analytics to run a franchise took Florida from first place to last place in a single season.

Bader's underselling Power sells Bader. If Power turns into a great NHLer, Bader will dismiss it as "luck" and go on inventing numbers. If Power struggles at all, Bader will scream it from the roof-tops and use it as ammunition to sell his own statistical model. The fact that Power is a kid trying to achieve a dream is immaterial to Bader, who doesn't care who he has to kick around in order to worm his way into a cushy NHL job.

Again, it is ludicrous for you or any other draftnik to start waxing poetic about 'kids achieving dreams' when part of the business is just sorting young men into who will succeed and who will fail. It's impossible to count how many times you've mentioned that you don't like Philip Broberg, how he's not any good, and how he will fail. You'll then pull back very slightly and be like 'I don't like being negative' but you toot your own horn on this sort of thing constantly. It's nice to see Chayka and Rowe appearing in a post too.

Bader's model will be wrong sometimes - it will be wildly wrong sometimes too, probably more than scouts will be, because it can't see the players, their strengths and their limitations. But it's also going to be right a fair amount too because it doesn't have the same biases. Models like this shouldn't draft - there's a lot more going into drafting than just numbers. But it's certainly the kind of thing every NHL team should have, in order to focus in on the players that are desirable and to remove the ones that aren't. A model like this kicks a guy like Pavel Zacha to the curb as a 6th overall selection.

One of the good things about Bader's model is that it re-evaluates players every year. If Power has success, his star % will increase, if he does not, it will decrease.
 
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Zajacs Bowl Cut

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I just don't understand the hate towards it...its a scouting metric just like any other scouting metric. Thats fine if you don't want to read it or agree with it, but it is still at least factually based in evidence and statistical models. No one is saying you should use ONLY that when determining if a player will be good or not.
 
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Triumph

Registered User
Oct 2, 2007
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how revolutionary. this is a game changer, folks

Most draft stuff just evaluates up to the draft, and most people read a number like 7% and think 0%. It is helpful in past instances to see the progression of players who were taken later in the draft who did not have a particularly high percentage of being a star and seeing how that happened, percentages-wise.

 

GameSeven

ἢ τὰς ἢ ἐπὶ τὰς
Jan 11, 2008
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I hope diedrich is still ok tho
undefined - Imgur.gif
 

PKs Broken Stick

Registered User
Oct 9, 2008
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dude we're like $35 million under the cap right now and our biggest contract is gone after this year

even if you gave Zacha, Bratt, AND Hughes $7 million/year when the time comes (obviously never happening), we would still be totally fine

what makes you so sure that isn't happening? I can definitely see it happening with bratt and Zacha (and WILL happen with Hughes).
 

PKs Broken Stick

Registered User
Oct 9, 2008
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I watched Brandt play in barrie about 6 or so games in his rookie season. Imo he did not play very well. He was completely lost in the defensive zone, he made muffin passes all the time. He tried to spin away and got caught all the time. There were a few times that they took him off of playing defense and put him forward because he was so bad. With that being said it was almost two years ago now. I am pretty sure he has grown as a player. Playing against men in another country is only going to help you develop. I just see red flags all over him when I see him play...

There's the issue...you watched him play 2 years ago. Yes, his defense was godawful but it has really come a long way this past season.
 

PKs Broken Stick

Registered User
Oct 9, 2008
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Ive been wondering, over the past year, if 'draft BPA' really applies to most clubs if any

I get the feeing the phrase is severely overused. People take it so literally to mean 'oh you think this player has a 0.2% higher chance of being an NHLer? BPA', when in reality so much more goes into these decisions

Especially for this draft it is being blown way out of proportion. the amount of times ive seen 'dont draft for name, draft for BPA' like as if any GM would seriously draft a player too high in the top-10 strictly on his name..

Then its even furthered by my reading of the discussions on Clarke vs Hughes; people say 'if you have Clarke higher, you take him'. Okay, fine, but... what if the club values Jack having his brother more than the difference between them? What if the club isnt fond of Clarke's interviews? What if the club wants the better skater and is willing to sacrifice the rest?

I didnt say this to turn it into a Clarke vs Hughes thing. But BPA isnt just some vacuum-comparison of two players who never played in similar leagues. Its everything, from their skill to their name to their attitude to their physique to their work ethic, etc etc..

I just think the term gets thrown around as a mean to either force the player their like or, opposite, try not to have an opinion as to not be wrong or off-basis.

Saying 'idc who we get as long as its BPA' is fine cause that generally means 'i just want whoever is worth fourth overall in twenty years'. But a lot of people say it as to mean something more, and it really isnt so black and white

Good example of drafting for need vs bpa is drafting Ceulemans at 4 if somehow it went Power, Hughes, and Clarke. Ceulemans is a great prospect but the value vs other prospects is just not there at #4. Although, for me personally I wouldn't mind it because I do really like him and think he's an excellent prospect. But that scenario would never play out I don't think. I just don't see Berniers not getting picked in top 2.
 

StevenToddIves

Registered User
May 18, 2013
11,086
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Again, it is ludicrous for you or any other draftnik to start waxing poetic about 'kids achieving dreams' when part of the business is just sorting young men into who will succeed and who will fail. It's impossible to count how many times you've mentioned that you don't like Philip Broberg, how he's not any good, and how he will fail. You'll then pull back very slightly and be like 'I don't like being negative' but you toot your own horn on this sort of thing constantly. It's nice to see Chayka and Rowe appearing in a post too.

Bader's model will be wrong sometimes - it will be wildly wrong sometimes too, probably more than scouts will be, because it can't see the players, their strengths and their limitations. But it's also going to be right a fair amount too because it doesn't have the same biases. Models like this shouldn't draft - there's a lot more going into drafting than just numbers. But it's certainly the kind of thing every NHL team should have, in order to focus in on the players that are desirable and to remove the ones that aren't. A model like this kicks a guy like Pavel Zacha to the curb as a 6th overall selection.

One of the good things about Bader's model is that it re-evaluates players every year. If Power has success, his star % will increase, if he does not, it will decrease.

For the sake of accuracy, I have said Broberg was over-ranked -- not destined to fail. I would never say such a thing, and to be honest I rather resent the implication. I feel Broberg has a very good shot to make it as an NHL-er, but I also think Edmonton will spend several years wishing they took Trevor Zegras, who was drafted in the next spot. There is a very, very large difference between saying a player is being over-valued in relation to other players and saying they will fail.

I do agree that, in the draft analysis business, you have to scrutinize the likelihood of a prospect's NHL success -- and thus, also the likelihood of their failure. I think it's better to do this by saying "player X needs to improve greatly in the areas of so-and-so and so-and-so in order to succeed at the professional level" as opposed to what Bader does, which is: "these completely scientific numbers I've just completely invented put his star probability percentage at 7%".

I don't have to agree with a writer or draft analyst in order to respect them. There's a writer at the Athletic named Dom Luszczyszyn whom is constantly re-evaluating his own analytic model. I disagree with much of what he writes, but I really like him because he's constantly looking for new ways to advance his own model because, ultimately, every model of player evaluation will have its flaws. He's never complacent or self-congratulatory. Bader has come up with a singular model and sold himself on it -- the implication being that "he's figured it out, and now he's done. Pay him to see the genius of his finished statistical model." The fact that Bader's model completely ignores compete level, hockey IQ, defensive play, physicality, how hockey is played in the NHL vs. how it is played in other leagues, role, deployment, quality of teammates, quality of competition etc. etc. is irrelevant, because people like you subscribe to his snake oil site and he's getting paid.

Because let's face it, when you take the consensus #1 prospect for a draft and slag him in your tweets and articles -- people notice! People check out Byron Bader! More hits on the site! And this makes me sad, because it spreads misconceptions. Owen Power is a 6'6, offensively skilled and defensively air-tight blueliner who skates well, put up a solid 16 points in 26 games as a freshman at U. of Michigan during a pandemic-marred year, and then excelled as one of the youngest players in the World Championship tourney. I'm putting my money on him, not the almost-always-wrong-but-still-getting-paid-for-it Byron Bader, thank you very much.

It's nice to see you defend Rowe and Chayka -- despite utter failure as NHL GMs -- because they also subscribe to analytics. I've defended you several times on these boards as well, despite the fact that you consistently -- almost obsessively -- criticize my posts. I will continue to do so, because my ego is irrelevant to me. I'm often telling readers to not just listen to me, but rather to read as many draft writers as possible and watch film to educate themselves. I'm one prospect-watching eye out of many, but check back on my track record in mock drafts and prospect rankings and you'll hopefully see I don't completely suck at this. I think the best thing I do is educate the readers here -- and thankfully I've got quite a few -- on all of the prospects, so they can familiarize themselves with prospects both before and after the draft. When the Devils drafted Dawson Mercer, everyone who read my draft writing knew all about him already, in part because I wouldn't shut up about what a tremendous prospect he was. When the Devils drafted Jaromir Pytlik a few rounds later, the only reason some readers knew anything about him was because I pumped him up a good deal as a nice sleeper pick leading up to the draft. This is not "tooting my horn", it's just what I do. I put a lot of work in -- watching tons of games and game film and reading everything I can in my research. It's a lot more work than Byron Bader, who plugs numbers into a computer and waits for the algorithm to print out. But I would never say I'm better than a draft writer who actually watches the prospects and disagrees with me. The difference is, Byron Bader doesn't bother watching the prospects, so what could he possibly know?

Can we at least admit that some analytics are better than other analytics? Because the analytics community turns off many traditional hockey fans, analysts and scouts by trumpeting every new statistic as immutable truth before it has been proven in practice. It's almost cult-like in its unconditional embrace of all things statistical. I actually love certain analytics -- I'm always checking out zone entry and exit statistics, especially for defensemen and centers. I enjoy assessing at the high-danger chart statistics for scoring forwards. I incorporate these into my player evaluations. But "star probability percentage"? I mean, you've got to be kidding me. Save your subscription fee, give that to charity instead.

On the same wavelength, there are many NHL GMs who smartly incorporate analytics into their team-building philosophy, and almost every NHL team wisely employs an analytics department. However, there have been three GMs hired into the NHL with almost entirely analytic backgrounds -- John Chayka, Tom Rowe and Kyle Dubas. Chayka and Rowe are two of the biggest unmitigated failures in modern NHL history, while the jury is still out on Dubas. I like that Dubas incorporated some traditional hockey aspects into his philosophy by acquiring some more physicality and compete level before the season and at the deadline, but his lack of understanding of traditional hockey aspects led him to acquire the wrong ones -- spending too much to get Nick Foligno and Wayne Simmonds when they were already clearly shells of their former selves.

So, look. Feel free to disagree with me -- I welcome it. Just please don't put words in my mouth -- I would never say a player is destined to fail. Because I do not wish to disparage NHL prospects, I'd rather save my vitriol and venom for charlatans hoodwinking a susceptible audience, like Byron Bader.
 

StevenToddIves

Registered User
May 18, 2013
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Brooklyn, NY
Good example of drafting for need vs bpa is drafting Ceulemans at 4 if somehow it went Power, Hughes, and Clarke. Ceulemans is a great prospect but the value vs other prospects is just not there at #4. Although, for me personally I wouldn't mind it because I do really like him and think he's an excellent prospect. But that scenario would never play out I don't think. I just don't see Berniers not getting picked in top 2.

Beniers is an extremely likely pick at #2 to Seattle, and we can't completely rule him out at #1 to Buffalo. If he gets past these two picks, this means two top D are likely gone and this increases the chances of his going to Anaheim at #3. So, I think you're completely correct that Beniers is a very early pick in the 2021 draft.
 
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beekay414

Registered User
Jul 1, 2016
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The two guys I really can't stand in the scouting/draft community are Bader and the dude that does the Scouching videos on YouTube. Both buy completely into their models and that's really all that matters to them. Just not my cup of tea when it comes to trying to discern who the better prospects are in the class. Like STI said, you simply can't compare statistical models across leagues like they are on an even playing field. Different styles of hockey, different roles, etc, will lead to discernable differences in how prospects need to be evaluated. Neither Bader's model nor the Scouching guy's model take that into account. They just plug and go and say "this guy good, this guy bad." It's pretty god damn lazy IMO.
 

Triumph

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Oct 2, 2007
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For the sake of accuracy, I have said Broberg was over-ranked -- not destined to fail. I would never say such a thing, and to be honest I rather resent the implication. I feel Broberg has a very good shot to make it as an NHL-er, but I also think Edmonton will spend several years wishing they took Trevor Zegras, who was drafted in the next spot. There is a very, very large difference between saying a player is being over-valued in relation to other players and saying they will fail.

You have over 180 posts with the word Broberg in them. So, fair, I can't really search them. Let's just say that I think that you are unusually fixated on this player.

I do agree that, in the draft analysis business, you have to scrutinize the likelihood of a prospect's NHL success -- and thus, also the likelihood of their failure. I think it's better to do this by saying "player X needs to improve greatly in the areas of so-and-so and so-and-so in order to succeed at the professional level" as opposed to what Bader does, which is: "these completely scientific numbers I've just completely invented put his star probability percentage at 7%".

This is true and of course grossly reductive of what someone like Bader does.

I don't have to agree with a writer or draft analyst in order to respect them. There's a writer at the Athletic named Dom Luszczyszyn whom is constantly re-evaluating his own analytic model. I disagree with much of what he writes, but I really like him because he's constantly looking for new ways to advance his own model because, ultimately, every model of player evaluation will have its flaws. He's never complacent or self-congratulatory. Bader has come up with a singular model and sold himself on it -- the implication being that "he's figured it out, and now he's done. Pay him to see the genius of his finished statistical model." The fact that Bader's model completely ignores compete level, hockey IQ, defensive play, physicality, how hockey is played in the NHL vs. how it is played in other leagues, role, deployment, quality of teammates, quality of competition etc. etc. is irrelevant, because people like you subscribe to his snake oil site and he's getting paid.

Bader's model isn't trying to replace scouting. That's where you are fundamentally wrong about the project he's engaged in.

Because let's face it, when you take the consensus #1 prospect for a draft and slag him in your tweets and articles -- people notice! People check out Byron Bader! More hits on the site! And this makes me sad, because it spreads misconceptions. Owen Power is a 6'6, offensively skilled and defensively air-tight blueliner who skates well, put up a solid 16 points in 26 games as a freshman at U. of Michigan during a pandemic-marred year, and then excelled as one of the youngest players in the World Championship tourney. I'm putting my money on him, not the almost-always-wrong-but-still-getting-paid-for-it Byron Bader, thank you very much.

I imagine he'd much rather have his model be in line with NHL consensus - it would help him get hired somewhere. The model cannot see that he is 6'6" and I don't think the model takes into account the World Championship.

It's nice to see you defend Rowe and Chayka -- despite utter failure as NHL GMs -- because they also subscribe to analytics. I've defended you several times on these boards as well, despite the fact that you consistently -- almost obsessively -- criticize my posts. I will continue to do so, because my ego is irrelevant to me. I'm often telling readers to not just listen to me, but rather to read as many draft writers as possible and watch film to educate themselves. I'm one prospect-watching eye out of many, but check back on my track record in mock drafts and prospect rankings and you'll hopefully see I don't completely suck at this. I think the best thing I do is educate the readers here -- and thankfully I've got quite a few -- on all of the prospects, so they can familiarize themselves with prospects both before and after the draft. When the Devils drafted Dawson Mercer, everyone who read my draft writing knew all about him already, in part because I wouldn't shut up about what a tremendous prospect he was. When the Devils drafted Jaromir Pytlik a few rounds later, the only reason some readers knew anything about him was because I pumped him up a good deal as a nice sleeper pick leading up to the draft. This is not "tooting my horn", it's just what I do. I put a lot of work in -- watching tons of games and game film and reading everything I can in my research. It's a lot more work than Byron Bader, who plugs numbers into a computer and waits for the algorithm to print out. But I would never say I'm better than a draft writer who actually watches the prospects and disagrees with me. The difference is, Byron Bader doesn't bother watching the prospects, so what could he possibly know?

Your irrelevant ego instead of writing this giant paragraph should've re-read my post which offered absolutely no defense of Rowe or Chayka, but rather just exasperation at your trotting them out once again as strawmen. I have said on multiple occasions and will continue to say, and I will put it in bold and capital letters so maybe everyone on this forum will realize: I [AND OTHER NUMERICALLY INCLINED PEOPLE] HAVE NEVER THOUGHT JOHN CHAYKA IS A GOOD GM. Nobody knows what numbers he was using, he was a total unknown to the stats community when he was hired, I don't think he went to ever went to the Sloan Analytic Conference, and so on - I will say he must know how to talk to very rich people, and for that I commend him, but I don't know what other skills he has.

In addition, do you think someone like Byron Bader really just 'plugs numbers into a computer'? That that's all the work he ever did on that program, just sit down and plug some numbers in, okay, now I have my algorithm. It's just a completely bad faith reading of what he's doing.

Can we at least admit that some analytics are better than other analytics? Because the analytics community turns off many traditional hockey fans, analysts and scouts by trumpeting every new statistic as immutable truth before it has been proven in practice. It's almost cult-like in its unconditional embrace of all things statistical. I actually love certain analytics -- I'm always checking out zone entry and exit statistics, especially for defensemen and centers. I enjoy assessing at the high-danger chart statistics for scoring forwards. I incorporate these into my player evaluations. But "star probability percentage"? I mean, you've got to be kidding me. Save your subscription fee, give that to charity instead.

You don't have any idea what you're talking about. This is always the problem when it comes down to this subject - people who reject numbers have absolutely no way of describing how people who like the numbers think or feel. Who said this is a 'immutable truth'? There's all sorts of guesswork going on, and if I could somehow bet against this 7% star probability, I would in a second. It's merely an interesting, unbiased (besides the programmer's bias) way of looking at prospects. Same with all the WAR numbers - people post this stuff and don't explain that it is guesswork, but that is what it is - a range.

On the same wavelength, there are many NHL GMs who smartly incorporate analytics into their team-building philosophy, and almost every NHL team wisely employs an analytics department. However, there have been three GMs hired into the NHL with almost entirely analytic backgrounds -- John Chayka, Tom Rowe and Kyle Dubas. Chayka and Rowe are two of the biggest unmitigated failures in modern NHL history, while the jury is still out on Dubas. I like that Dubas incorporated some traditional hockey aspects into his philosophy by acquiring some more physicality and compete level before the season and at the deadline, but his lack of understanding of traditional hockey aspects led him to acquire the wrong ones -- spending too much to get Nick Foligno and Wayne Simmonds when they were already clearly shells of their former selves.

So, look. Feel free to disagree with me -- I welcome it. Just please don't put words in my mouth -- I would never say a player is destined to fail. Because I do not wish to disparage NHL prospects, I'd rather save my vitriol and venom for charlatans hoodwinking a susceptible audience, like Byron Bader.

Oh right, Dubas got the wrong ones. That must be the problem. Dubas's problem is that he spent like the NHL salary cap would go to $90 million by 2021-22, which it was projected to, and then a worldwide pandemic ruined that.

Rowe wasn't hired as a numbers guy, he just became one as Panthers GM. Calling him an analytics GM is pretty ludicrous - he might've said things publicly about the use of analytics, but he is a hockey lifer.

You could at least mention Mike Gillis's backfiring focus on overage picks, maybe trot that one out instead of Tom Rowe.

Fair enough about Broberg, but again, while I don't think you want him to fail, you are likely to denigrate his game at any opportunity, whether he does or does not succeed.
 

StevenToddIves

Registered User
May 18, 2013
11,086
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Brooklyn, NY
The two guys I really can't stand in the scouting/draft community are Bader and the dude that does the Scouching videos on YouTube. Both buy completely into their models and that's really all that matters to them. Just not my cup of tea when it comes to trying to discern who the better prospects are in the class. Like STI said, you simply can't compare statistical models across leagues like they are on an even playing field. Different styles of hockey, different roles, etc, will lead to discernable differences in how prospects need to be evaluated. Neither Bader's model nor the Scouching guy's model take that into account. They just plug and go and say "this guy good, this guy bad." It's pretty god damn lazy IMO.

Agreed. I think the entire analytics community is diminished by the "know-it-alls" within their own group. I will say that Scouching -- although I often find myself disagreeing with him -- at least watches the players. Any time an analyst shows he has done his homework and due diligence, I feel I owe them a modicum of respect, because at least their opinions are based on something tangible.

Bader is the opposite. Whenever I read Bader, I feel he hasn't watched a prospect all year and just plugged the numbers into his algorithm. Bader to me is essentially the tinfoil hat guy of the draft analytics world, but unfortunately a lot of other tinfoil hatters seem okay with giving him their money.
 

Guttersniped

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Again, it is ludicrous for you or any other draftnik to start waxing poetic about 'kids achieving dreams' when part of the business is just sorting young men into who will succeed and who will fail. It's impossible to count how many times you've mentioned that you don't like Philip Broberg, how he's not any good, and how he will fail. You'll then pull back very slightly and be like 'I don't like being negative' but you toot your own horn on this sort of thing constantly. It's nice to see Chayka and Rowe appearing in a post too.

Bader's model will be wrong sometimes - it will be wildly wrong sometimes too, probably more than scouts will be, because it can't see the players, their strengths and their limitations. But it's also going to be right a fair amount too because it doesn't have the same biases. Models like this shouldn't draft - there's a lot more going into drafting than just numbers. But it's certainly the kind of thing every NHL team should have, in order to focus in on the players that are desirable and to remove the ones that aren't. A model like this kicks a guy like Pavel Zacha to the curb as a 6th overall selection.

One of the good things about Bader's model is that it re-evaluates players every year. If Power has success, his star % will increase, if he does not, it will decrease.
Actually I don’t know how helpful it is other than maybe revealing later round gems. If the Avalanche went by this model then might not have drafted Ratanen at #10 either. He had a lower potential than Zacha.

Pavel Zacha (Star Prob 14% and NHL 53%) vs
Brock Boeser (Star Prob 12% and NHL 45%) vs
Miko Ratanen (Star Prob 12% and NHL 45%) vs Thomas Chabot (Star Prob 3% and NHL 46%) vs
Denis Gurianov (Star Prob 22% and NHL 63%) vs
Jack Roslovic (Star Prob 27% and NHL 56%) vs Sebastian Aho (Star Prob 11% and NHL 53%) vs
Blake Speers (Star Prob 12% and NHL 45%) vs
Roope Hintz (Star Prob 8% and NHL 45%)

And Nick Merkley had 40% star probability, the 6th highest in the 2015 draft, and 77% NHL probably, tied (w/ Marner) for 6th highest. Kirill Kaprizov was 7th with 34% star probability and 54% NHL probability, which seems solid in hindsight. And Evgeny Svechnikov and Jeremy Bracco were tied for 8th, with 32% star probability and 62% NHL probability, which in hindsight is not so rosy.
 

devilsblood

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Mar 10, 2010
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Rowe wasn't hired as a numbers guy, he just became one as Panthers GM. Calling him an analytics GM is pretty ludicrous - he might've said things publicly about the use of analytics, but he is a hockey lifer.

.
This was also the argument against Dubas as a "analytics GM", but are there any GM's who would fit the description of a true "analytics GM"?

I could be wrong but it seems the teams that most heavily use analytics, like Carolina and Colorado, are still run by hockey lifers who have analytic departments.
 

devilsblood

Registered User
Mar 10, 2010
30,357
12,750
Actually I don’t know how helpful it is other than maybe revealing later round gems. If the Avalanche went by this model then might not have drafted Ratanen at #10 either. He had a lower potential than Zacha.

Pavel Zacha (Star Prob 14% and NHL 53%) vs
Brock Boeser (Star Prob 12% and NHL 45%) vs
Miko Ratanen (Star Prob 12% and NHL 45%) vs Thomas Chabot (Star Prob 3% and NHL 46%) vs
Denis Gurianov (Star Prob 22% and NHL 63%) vs
Jack Roslovic (Star Prob 27% and NHL 56%) vs Sebastian Aho (Star Prob 11% and NHL 53%) vs
Blake Speers (Star Prob 12% and NHL 45%) vs
Roope Hintz (Star Prob 8% and NHL 45%)

And Nick Merkley had 40% star probability, the 6th highest in the 2015 draft, and 77% NHL probably, tied (w/ Marner) for 6th highest. Kirill Kaprizov was 7th with 34% star probability and 54% NHL probability, which seems solid in hindsight. And Evgeny Svechnikov and Jeremy Bracco were tied for 8th, with 32% star probability and 62% NHL probability, which in hindsight is not so rosy.
Ha, Speers and Rant with exact same %'s.
 
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