Devils discussion (news, notes and speculation) - playoff edition

[Zippy316]

Yea but even in your dream scenario, they don't have a single C comfortable in front of the net or driving (Nico does his best because he has to). More importantly, they also don't have a single C capable of stepping into the top 6 if Nico or Jack go down, which you allude to. They badly need a very high end 3C/low 2C. It's a requirement if they wanna take a serious step towards contending. Not a nice to have. Everything else is window dressing. Just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic without one.

In my perfect, entirely unrealistic offseason....they need a legit well rounded 2C. Solid at the dot 47%+. 6'1" or so; comfortable battling in front. Above average shooter, not a pure volume guy, so say 13%+ arbitrarily. A 25-30 type. Adds versatility to your center pool. That one miracle add would fix so many other issues with this roster. It also provides Jack insurance if he can't stay healthy or....even ends up being better suited as a Winger. Hasn't further progressed/rounded out his C game for 2 years now....not arguing this on here because most will freak out incoherently. But that's objective reality. League is littered with plenty of high profile Cs in their younger years who ended up being better suited on the wing in the NHL...and were still incredible players. Especially players of Jack's stature (more than just height). Conversely, if Jack progresses his C game and stays healthy, GREAT. Congrats Devs, you now actually have the spine of a serious contender.

Hughes was more than holding his own at center so I think the idea that this team needs a 2C is pushing it.

In an ideal world, you would have a top six winger who could slide to 2C in a pinch. Or better yet a young 3C that you could get great value on in his RFA years.

Right now, the Devils strategy is probably going to be trying for the Haula’s of the world at 3C and if no one pans out, then they acquire a 3C at the deadline if it’s still a big need.

 

[Marv4Life]

Nothing will drastically improve with this squad until the entire medical/training staff get overhauled first and foremost. GM, coach, players, we can debate but you can't have a crap ton of injuries year after year.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Jack Hughes is a center. He will play center the rest of his career. He is not a winger. Every time he plays there, he sucks.

Not really sure how this is even a debate anymore. I dont care if He never wins another faceoff again, he is a center.

Now, does the team need more reliable centers behind him/better center depth? yes, absolutely.

 

[NJDevs26]

I mean if Hughes wasn't the 'center' on his line who was? It's not like he had Haula taking faceoffs for him again like earlier in his career, he took over 650 faceoffs - it's just that he's bad at them and always will be.

 

[dgibb10]

So it's best for a win-now team to punt on both Necas and Rantanen and have a 'future top nine' forward in Stankoven who isn't nearly as good as either guy now and an over-the-hill Hall? You and the Hurricanes both take the moneyball stuff way too far.

Carolina prioritizes efficiency in payroll over winning, it appears you do the same.

There's really no point doing this after the colorado comment because you just view any team that's good for a long time who doesn't win as "trying the 10 year plan" and any team that does win as "going all in"

Colorado apparently "quit on their 10 year plan to go all in" by trading a 2nd+prospect for Manson (more like the dumo trade than anything) and trading a 2nd+prospect for a cost controlled RFA with good analytics who they planned to resign.

 

[Edmonton East]

"We only have 1 top 6 C on the roster". Again, you appear to be a troll.

Nico Hischier's deployments are not as tough as you make them out to be. Hard? Yeah.
He took a lot of FACEOFFS this year due to issues there that were previously covered by McLeod and Haula being 2 other 56+% guys last year.

But the statement that nico took the hardest deployments in the league by a mile is just dishonesty.

Also, building a legit 3rd line is literally how you make Nico's life easier

Enough already. Learn to read. Where did I say based off of faceoff deployments? I didn't, but yea sure, that obviously plays a material role on a team built like this. And guess what? In your hypothetical lineup with Noesen in the top 6 that started this very convo, Nico AND HIS LINEMATES are still gonna get screwed, in part, due to faceoff deployment (since you wanna focus on that). Hilarious, really. Even in a terrible strawman, you managed to argue against yourself. Bravo.

 

[NJDevs26]

Well I bet you hated Tampa's plan since they did go all in and won twice. Pittsburgh won twice (well three times but the first was really early in their run) and they didn't exactly hoard assets. Vegas definitely went all in though they got pretty fortunate in their initial team building. Newsflash it's hard to win a Cup...getting cute and trying to be exactly perfect in payroll and pick retention might see you fall by the wayside, in fact it's more likely than not. Carolina hasn't even gotten close despite having good teams the last few years, they haven't gone all in with payroll - drafting only goes so far if the owner is only willing to spend $60 million a year when everyone else is on $80+ million and you have to keep your picks because of internal payroll restriction.

If you don't go all in when we have Nico and Jack on sweetheart deals in the next few years, you'll be trying to do it later on when they're both older and on $10-15 million per year. If they didn't think they were a win-sooner team they wouldn't have traded a 1st and Kevin Bahl for a 35-year old goalie.

There's really no point doing this after the colorado comment because you just view any team that's good for a long time who doesn't win as "trying the 10 year plan" and any team that does win as "going all in"

Colorado apparently "quit on their 10 year plan to go all in" by trading a 2nd+prospect for Manson (more like the dumo trade than anything) and trading a 2nd+prospect for a cost controlled RFA with good analytics who they planned to resign.

They also traded a first for Kuemper and two 2's for Toews - granted the latter was one of Lou's worst moves ever

 

[dgibb10]

Well I bet you hated Tampa's plan since they did go all in and won twice. Pittsburgh won twice (well three times but the first was really early in their run) and they didn't exactly hoard assets. Vegas definitely went all in though they got pretty fortunate in their initial team building. Newsflash it's hard to win a Cup...getting cute and trying to be exactly perfect in payroll and pick retention might see you fall by the wayside, in fact it's more likely than not. Carolina hasn't even gotten close despite having good teams the last few years, they haven't gone all in with payroll - drafting only goes so far if the owner is only willing to spend $60 million a year when everyone else is on $80+ million. If you don't go all in when we have Nico and Jack on sweetheart deals now, you'll be trying to do it later on when they're both on $10-15 million per year.

Tampa started contending in 2013-2014 around stamkos and hedman who were both 23 (the age Jack is now).

Pittsburgh? Started contending in 06-07. They then continued to contend for the next decade+. What all in are you talking about.

In comparison to Jack and Bratts ages we'd probably be in about 2010-11 and 11-12. Crosby had missed a large chunk of the 2 seasons, was 23-24 (around the age Jack is now), and had 2 disappointing years with 1st round exits. Did they go all in? Because I remember them selling Jordan Staal and winnning about half a decade later.

Vegas is a completely different model.

 

[NJDfan86]

No team in the NHL has 6 true top-six forwards. And again, its basically top 9 and then 4th line anyways nowadays in the NHL with forward deployment and ES ice time.

I think we need two "new" top 9 forwards and two "new" 4th liners (unless you want to say that Haula OR Glass are going to be the 4C?)

Use Cotter/Haula/Glass (or play glass center) as your fourth line and find a real #3 center. That way there’s plenty of redundancy.

 

[dgibb10]

Well I bet you hated Tampa's plan since they did go all in and won twice. Pittsburgh won twice (well three times but the first was really early in their run) and they didn't exactly hoard assets. Vegas definitely went all in though they got pretty fortunate in their initial team building. Newsflash it's hard to win a Cup...getting cute and trying to be exactly perfect in payroll and pick retention might see you fall by the wayside, in fact it's more likely than not. Carolina hasn't even gotten close despite having good teams the last few years, they haven't gone all in with payroll - drafting only goes so far if the owner is only willing to spend $60 million a year when everyone else is on $80+ million and you have to keep your picks because of internal payroll restriction.

If you don't go all in when we have Nico and Jack on sweetheart deals in the next few years, you'll be trying to do it later on when they're both older and on $10-15 million per year. If they didn't think they were a win-sooner team they wouldn't have traded a 1st and Kevin Bahl for a 35-year old goalie.


They also traded a first for Kuemper and two 2's for Toews - granted the latter was one of Lou's worst moves ever

team that acquires players and wins=all in
team that acquires players and doesn't win=clearly they were trying to save money

 

[dgibb10]

Enough already. Learn to read. Where did I say based off of faceoff deployments? I didn't, but yea sure, that obviously plays a material role on a team built like this. And guess what? In your hypothetical lineup with Noesen in the top 6 that started this very convo, Nico AND HIS LINEMATES are still gonna get screwed, in part, due to faceoff deployment (since you wanna focus on that). Hilarious, really. Even in a terrible strawman, you managed to argue against yourself. Bravo.

Noesen played in a very real line with Nico and they cooked.

Your argument makes no sense.

Your premise is that nico plays too many hard minutes and that it leaves him and his linemates exhausted.

And yet you oppose moving talent more evenly through the lines so the 3rd line can take a larger load and make nico's life easier.

Weird weird take

 

[Edmonton East]

Noesen played in a very real line with Nico and they cooked.

Your argument makes no sense.

Your premise is that nico plays too many hard minutes and that it leaves him and his linemates exhausted.

And yet you oppose moving talent more evenly through the lines so the 3rd line can take a larger load and make nico's life easier.

Weird weird take

You right. 2 ES goals since Christmas while playing 16min a night is "cooking". I'm gonna stay over here in reality, thanks.

For the 10th time, Noesen is a fine player, but they ran him into the ground this season out of necessity. What I said: He's had to play 3+ minutes more a night than he's capable of, longer shifts, and it's gonna kill him. He has 2 ES goals since Christmas while playing 16min a night ffs. He should see 13min a night or less. He is not a consistent top 6 player on a playoff team. End of discussion. None of this is debatable to a rational person. Keep yelling in your fantasy world, I don't care.

 

[Ekiru]

Both things can be true at once - the Devils need better talent in the top-6 so Noesen isnt swimming at 5v5, and the Devils also overplay Nico situationally to the point it hampers his offensive production

As a contender Noesen should be a third liner playing PP1 for the nosefront. We just arent there yet as a squad

----

Edit: id go a step further, though this is purely my opinion and one that I know is a major hot take... In a perfect world Id remove Bratt and Nico from the PP, replacing them with Meier and a high-end 3C for the faceoffs

I think our powerplay can be nearly as effective with an extra pure shooter in Meier and leave Nico and Bratt to PP2 for a real secondary threat, all the while giving Nico some rest and focus on PK1 and ES1

Finding that crucial 3C, a high-end one at that, would be key to that puzzle for me. Also I feel this would bolster Meier's confidence for better ES production while Bratt is an absolute gamer and would be un-phased as I see it

Plus you can always load up the PP with the purely best 5 talents when you need a goal desperately

 

[None Shall Pass]

What's the consensus on Mercer's play at center this postseason? Generally he's been pretty ass at it but he doesn't look TOO ass this playoffs.

 

[dgibb10]

You right. 2 ES goals since Christmas while playing 16min a night is "cooking". I'm gonna stay over here in reality, thanks.

For the 10th time, Noesen is a fine player, but they ran him into the ground this season out of necessity. What I said: He's had to play 3+ minutes more a night than he's capable of, longer shifts, and it's gonna kill him. He has 2 ES goals since Christmas while playing 16min a night ffs. He should see 13min a night or less. He is not a consistent top 6 player on a playoff team. End of discussion. None of this is debatable to a rational person. Keep yelling in your fantasy world, I don't care.

Nico, Meier, Noesen as a line put up excellent results.

If it makes you feel better you can rotate the wingers in there around to your hearts content. You can even give Noesen a few rest days if you want throughout the season, or you can rotate bratt in for a shift or two throughout the game, or Palat, or mercer, or whoever else.

The whole point being that IT REALLY DOES NOT MATTER WHO PLAYS ALONGSIDE the 2 duos, since they create for themselves.

Noesen isn't in a "top 6".

There is a top 4 in Jack, Bratt, Nico, and Meier. There is a then a "complimentary 5" behind them who are fairly interchangable and then a 4th line.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

Saying that Jack Hughes, one of the best centers in the NHL, is not a “true top 6 center”, is one of the more ridiculous things you’ll ever read on this website. Incredible, really. I guess because he loses a few too many faceoffs? Was McDavid a “true top 6 C” in his first 3 years when he won 42% of faceoffs? Or Malkin who was 40% in his first 5 years?

 

[Devils731]

What's the consensus on Mercer's play at center this postseason? Generally he's been pretty ass at it but he doesn't look TOO ass this playoffs.

For me, switching back to center somehow helped his game, even though ever other time in his career it hurt him.

He’s still not playing that well but he’s playing better; more of an indictment on his general play earlier in the season.

It could be he needed that mental shakeup but it still doesn’t look like center will be his primary NHL position.

 

[BurntToast]

Dougie >>> Timo @ 9 mil.

Plus, teams still trade for old offensive defensemen. (PK, Burns, Karlsson, Jones, etc).

Maybe you can trade Timo to Buffalo. Yeah he is big but he was brought in (and paid) to score.

I am happy for Jeseper but The Devils also need him to score more than 20 goals. How many assist were from Jack or the PP.

These last two series make me appreciate Elais even more. He should 100% in the HoF. Hopefully, Bratt steps up next year.

 

[HoliksGhost]

This board is going bonkers and we are not even eliminated yet

 

[guitarguyvic]

We seriously have someone spending pages arguing that Stefan friggin Noesen should remain in the top six next year? What an insane hill to die on.

We don’t need “true” top six players next to Nico/Timo and Jack/Bratt. But they sure as shit need to be better than the Noesens of the world who before coming here topped out as a 3rd/4th line tweener. And better than the twilight versions of Palat and Haula.

I guess we still haven’t learned that you can’t just throw any scrub into an important role and expect great results. I hope to hell Fitzy boy doesn’t have the same thought process because otherwise get ready for year 13 of dogshit.

 

[HoliksGhost]

In my best Sebastian Manoscalco voice:

“Noesen, aren’t you embarrassed” ?

 

[Bleedred]

Right now, the Devils strategy is probably going to be trying for the Haula’s of the world at 3C and if no one pans out, then they acquire a 3C at the deadline if it’s still a big need.

If that's the plan for a second year in a row after it didn't work the first time then Fire Fitz indeed.

 

[Edmonton East]

What's the consensus on Mercer's play at center this postseason? Generally he's been pretty ass at it but he doesn't look TOO ass this playoffs.

Longshot to be a 3C, but it's possible I guess (would need ton of dev in offseason). He's an undersized labrador or golden retriever. The effort and energy is there all the time. He'll try to do the dirty work at the net and even attempt some hits....but he simply lacks the skill and/or size to actually be good at anything. Average skill but incredible work rate can actually still be a dangerous combo if a player has size (not a height thing....more so stature). Fine 3rd line wing for now.

 

[Edmonton East]

Right now, the Devils strategy is probably going to be trying for the Haula’s of the world at 3C and if no one pans out, then they acquire a 3C at the deadline if it’s still a big need.

Jack is coming off another major shoulder surgery. That isn't acceptable. It shouldn't have been this season either.

 

[Bleedred]

Our old boy Maroon leading in all categories.

Noesen being that high up is pretty damning. It's now giving me ideas that having someone like him in the top 6 is indeed going to hinder the team's ability to get faster again.

I'd like to see the 22-23 numbers, as well as the 23-24 numbers on these. I'd be absolutely shocked if we had anyone in the top 25 on any of those in 22-23. I'm wondering if we had somebody in the top 25 in any of them on there in 23-24?

A few people will probably say Toffoli as a guess.