Devils discussion (news, notes and speculation) - part VI

[dzubrus8]

Kuch is a no-doubter franchise talent. Some of the counting stats he’s put up are absurd, and he’s a nasty little pain in the ass too.

fair enough, ignore Kucherov then. not the point of the exercise

 

[tailfins]

re: the first part, let's say Panarin / Gaudreau / Marner then. I personally wouldn't put Kucherov in that MacK / McD / Drai / possibly even Matthews pantheon but I could see why some would. Wingers will naturally face a higher burden of proof to be considered the best but if there currently is a winger who can make that claim it would be Kuch.

Sadly I strongly disagree on the second part.

I can't point to only one team that has won the cup in the last 10 years with one or fewer superstar. Florida (Barkov, Tkachuk, Reinhart), Vegas (tbh probably wouldn't call anybody on that year's team a true superstar), Avs (MacK, Rantanen, Makar), TBL (Kucherov, Stamkos, Point, Hedman, Vas), WSH (Ovy, Backstrom, Carlson), Pit (Crosby, Malkin, Guentzel, Letang). All of those forwards are probably better than Bratt, almost certainly better than Nico, and all those defenders are better than the Devils' defensemen, at least currently.

And then you look at the other 'best-in-the-league' candidates and see how many cups they've won: McDavid/Draisaitl (crazy that they're on the same team): 0; Marner/Matthews: 0; Panarin: 1 (when he was a youngster and not a main player on that Blackhawks squad); Kaprizov (still early): 0.

Agree on almost everything.

But, I think Bratt is making a leap. A lot then depends on Luke. He’s a fine player right now, but doesn’t change the game when he’s on the ice. Maybe that’s starting to change a bit with Jack and Dougie out? Obviously he’s ridiculously young. If he can take a few steps forward, Devils have what it takes.

Lots of “ifs” I know.

 

[Devs3cups]

Quick question for the board, has anyone here taken/bought a new sponsorship since the site crash? Is everything working properly? Any issues?

I’d like to become a sponsor again but I don’t know if I should wait a bit… Thanks!!

 

[Nocashstyle]

Quick question for the board, has anyone here taken/bought a new sponsorship since the site crash? Is everything working properly? Any issues?

I’d like to become a sponsor again but I don’t know if I should wait a bit… Thanks!!

My sponsorship was active when the board crashed, so I had to reach out to a mod to get it back. I did, and it’s working just like it is supposed to and feels like it did pre-crash.

 

[TheUnseenHand]

Quick question for the board, has anyone here taken/bought a new sponsorship since the site crash? Is everything working properly? Any issues?

I’d like to become a sponsor again but I don’t know if I should wait a bit… Thanks!!

I did and it seems fine. I think the global admins can reinstate your previous sponsorship if it wasn't expired, but mine was close to expiration and I just didn't feel like dealing with it so I paid the 12$ or whatever it is.

 

[Billdo]

Possibly in line with this Nico talk, what do people see as Jack's ceiling? Is he going to earn a place in the conversation with McDavid, MacKinnon, Draisaitl, Crosby as best center in the league? I hear him in those conversations but I wonder if he's actually at that point if it's more so based on his still untapped potential and some of his highlight reel plays.

In my mind, I'm wondering if he'll wind up a center version of a Kucherov / Panarin / Gaudreau / Marner, 86's injuries notwithstanding. Don't get me wrong it'd still be a wonderful outcome but not a franchise talent in the same way as the aforementioned centers.

I think he's going to be a level below McDavid, MacKinnon, Draisaitl, and Crosby. He's going to be closer to the Aho, Matthews, Eichel guys.

 

[dzubrus8]

Agree on almost everything.

But, I think Bratt is making a leap. A lot then depends on Luke. He’s a fine player right now, but doesn’t change the game when he’s on the ice. Maybe that’s starting to change a bit with Jack and Dougie out? Obviously he’s ridiculously young. If he can take a few steps forward, Devils have what it takes.

Lots of “ifs” I know.

Totally, and I have hope they get to that point, but those ifs likely all need to be true for the Devils to win a cup off that. Otherwise they'll need to have a wild run or meaningfully improve the bottom-6, or bring in young talent that vastly outperforms their contract, etc. i.e. what most cup winning teams do.

Unlike some others here I've been super impressed with Bratter this year and I think he is a high-end 1st liner at the moment but not somebody I'm calling definitively better than any of the guys in that list, maybe Backstrom or Point, at least at the time of those cup wins.

I'm also a huge Nico fan and think he is actually a low calorie Barkov, Kopitar, etc. He's definitely not Bergeron or Datsyuk but he's proven to be a true, reliable 1C.

And finally I'm very excited about Luke Hughes' development this year. Looked so good on both sides of the puck by midseason playing with Pesce, then got lost in the wilderness, and now seems to be putting it together offensively (17pts in his last 17). I have full confidence he'll be a top-pairing, >60pt defenseman in the next few years who plays a sound two-way game. Again that's not Makar or Hedman levels but he very well could be a top-10 D-man and hopefully get some Norris votes in his prime.

 

[Whaddagoal]

Kuch is a no-doubter franchise talent. Some of the counting stats he’s put up are absurd, and he’s a nasty little pain in the ass too.

Can't stand the player (and what seems to be the person Kucherov), but he is by far a franchise game breaking talent, it's a no doubter for sure.

I don't like the way he's gotten away with numerous nasty dirty plays over his career. But he is a mega talent.

 

[JrFischer54]

Kuch is absolutely a franchise talent / in the convo for best player in the league. If Jack can be like him, Devils win at least one cup.

jack doesn't have the heart and drive that kuch does on the ice imo talents are there for sure

 

[JrFischer54]

I was a pretty big Nico critic pretty much until the end of the '22 season but I've pretty much loved the way he's played since then. That being said, I will be disappointed if he doesn't hit that consistent 80 point mark through the rest of his prime. I think only multiple cups and a few heroic performances would shut me up.

I know some people will shit bricks over what I'm gonna say but he's definitely on track to be the most overrated Devil in the history of the team. For the hysterics among us: that does not mean I don't love him.

man i got bashed for saying pretty much the same thing and that was BEFORE his 80pt season

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

I was a pretty big Nico critic pretty much until the end of the '22 season but I've pretty much loved the way he's played since then. That being said, I will be disappointed if he doesn't hit that consistent 80 point mark through the rest of his prime. I think only multiple cups and a few heroic performances would shut me up.

I know some people will shit bricks over what I'm gonna say but he's definitely on track to be the most overrated Devil in the history of the team. For the hysterics among us: that does not mean I don't love him.

This is kind of ridiculous. I would love to know what makes him "overrated"?

He is already 11th all time in franchise scoring at 26 years old. He'll probably be into the top 5 this time next year. He gets the team's toughest assignments and some of the tougher assignments in the league. Plays PP. Plays PK. Wins faceoffs. Captain of the team.

No, he isn't Barkov. so what?

 

[thebeernerd]

If anything, Hischier has wildly outperformed my original expectations. I didn't think he'd score this much nor that he'd be a Selke-caliber talent on defense. I figured he'd be the two-way guy but to a much lesser extent than what we're seeing.

Calling him "overrated" is insane to me for that reason. I guess people took the comparisons to Datsyuk and ran all the way with it?

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

If anything, Hischier has wildly outperformed my original expectations. I didn't think he'd score this much nor that he'd be a Selke-caliber talent on defense. I figured he'd be the two-way guy but to a much lesser extent than what we're seeing.

Calling him "overrated" is insane to me for that reason. I guess people took the comparisons to Datsyuk and ran all the way with it?

Yeah, considering he was a “weak number 1 overall”, a 30+ goal guy that flirts with a point per game and is expected to be in the Selke conversation every year is about as good as we could’ve hoped.

 

[Nocashstyle]

If anything, Nico has probably surpassed the ceiling projected onto him leading up to the draft. The whole time the narrative was “weak top end talent. Nico Hischier and Nolan Patrick probably top out as very good #2 centers on a contender.”

 

[JimEIV]

I'll get crucified for this...but I do think Nico is overrated defensively.

I don't think he's as good defensively as people make out. He misses a lot of coverages and nobody talks about it.

I do think he's a very good two way forward. And I do think he is the best defensive forward on this team...but he's not elite defensively.... he's not even Zajac level defensively.


Edit: I'm sure this will spawn a slew of Pokemon cards and abstract art graphs.

 

[Nocashstyle]

I'll get crucified for this...but I do think Nico is overrated defensively.

I don't think he's as good defensively as people make out. He misses a lot of coverages and nobody talks about it.

I do think he's a very good two way forward. And I do think he is the best defensive forward on this team...but he's not elite defensively.... he's not even Zajac level defensively.


Edit: I'm sure this will spawn a slew of Pokemon cards and abstract art graphs.

I think there are two ways to look at it:

There is black and white - defense as far as purely stopping the other team from scoring

There is also the “intangibles” school of thought that considers a much more holistic picture of defense beyond just defensive coverage: not turning the puck over, almost always making the correct puck decision, faceoffs, board battles.

I know you didn’t specifically mention the Selke, but I think Selke votes focus more on the latter in addition to good offense…and honestly reputation.

I also think the latter is more important.

 

[Better Call Sal]

There is appreciation that I have for the position and role that Nico plays vs. a winger such as Zach so that likely plays a factor as well.

I'm sure any feeling of him being overrated had to do with the expectations of number 1 overall, but my expectations were always that if he were a Bergeron-lite type of player, I'd be more than happy. I do think us also ending up with Jack softened our offensive expectations for Nico as well. It's a fascinating what if situation to see how we would have addressed our team had he not come into the fold.

Nico is my favorite player on the team because he feels like a throwback in many ways. He does everything you ask of him. He will play in every situation, he'll leave it all on the ice. Defensively responsible, has offensive skill to back it up but plays a much smarter, simpler game that picks up almost any winger you put beside him.

I'll go to bat for that kid 100 times out of 100. It doesn't hurt at all that he is a genuinely incredible dude.

 

[Nocashstyle]

Looking at it purely from a playoff hockey perspective, I think the team has a better chance of winning with Nico in/Jack out than Jack in/Nico out.

Not that I don’t think Jack can’t be a playoff player, because he has clearly proven it, I just think Nico does so many small things that make a huge difference, especially over short series of tight checking hockey.

 

[thebeernerd]

Looking at it purely from a playoff hockey perspective, I think the team has a better chance of winning with Nico in/Jack out than Jack in/Nico out.

Not that I don’t think Jack can’t be a playoff player, because he has clearly proven it, I just think Nico does so many small things that make a huge difference, especially over short series of tight checking hockey.

We'll need both to win, but Nico is the beating heart of this team. Jack is an amazing talent but he's just not as essential in the same way.

 

[JimEIV]

There is appreciation that I have for the position and role that Nico plays vs. a winger such as Zach so that likely plays a factor as well.

I'm sure any feeling of him being overrated had to do with the expectations of number 1 overall, but my expectations were always that if he were a Bergeron-lite type of player, I'd be more than happy. I do think us also ending up with Jack softened our offensive expectations for Nico as well. It's a fascinating what if situation to see how we would have addressed our team had he not come into the fold.

Nico is my favorite player on the team because he feels like a throwback in many ways. He does everything you ask of him. He will play in every situation, he'll leave it all on the ice. Defensively responsible, has offensive skill to back it up but plays a much smarter, simpler game that picks up almost any winger you put beside him.

I'll go to bat for that kid 100 times out of 100. It doesn't hurt at all that he is a genuinely incredible dude.

It's interesting that he's your favorite because of the throwback factor...

Because he upsets me because he's a throwback for a lot of reasons....first and foremost for 20 years we never had high picks and had a slew of players who did all the things he does...it was the sum is greater than the parts philosophy... I have a hard time celebrating that when we had to tank seasons and win a lottery to get the things Jamie Langenbrunner brought to table in spades.

I thought the whole purpose of the tank and pick philosophy was to get super high end talent? Are we doing the old thing or the new thing?

 

[Devs3cups]

My sponsorship was active when the board crashed, so I had to reach out to a mod to get it back. I did, and it’s working just like it is supposed to and feels like it did pre-crash.

I did and it seems fine. I think the global admins can reinstate your previous sponsorship if it wasn't expired, but mine was close to expiration and I just didn't feel like dealing with it so I paid the 12$ or whatever it is.

Thanks a lot for the info!! Appreciate it!

 

[Nocashstyle]

We'll need both to win, but Nico is the beating heart of this team. Jack is an amazing talent but he's just not as essential in the same way.

I also think Bratt can provide some of that game breaking offensive talent that Jack has. He’s not Jack, but he’s clearly still elite in that area in his own right. There is no one who could replicate what Nico brings.

 

[Nocashstyle]

It's interesting that he's your favorite because of the throwback factor...

Because he upsets me because he's a throwback for a lot of reasons....first and foremost for 20 years we never had high picks and had a slew of players who did all the things he does...it was the sum is greater than the parts philosophy... I have a hard time celebrating that when we had to tank seasons and win a lottery to get the things Jamie Langenbrunner brought to table in spades.

I thought the whole purpose of the tank and pick philosophy was to get super high end talent? Are we doing the old thing or the new thing?

You really just compared Hischier to Langenbrunner? Lol

 

[devilsblood]

I think he's going to be a level below McDavid, MacKinnon, Draisaitl, and Crosby. He's going to be closer to the Aho, Matthews, Eichel guys.

I think Matthews is above that 2nd group, maybe in line with Draisaitl who imo is below McDavid and Mac. Matthews is definitely above Eichel.

But Jack can certainly get into the Aho Eichel group. I'd say he can surpass them, but that's tbd.

Crosby is more a previous era, but THE top player of his era which Jack is probably not going to be.

 

[Devs3cups]

90 points this year for Bratt would be quite something, and it seems entirely possible.