Devils discussion (news, notes and speculation) - part VI

[NJDevs26]

Team talk only...take the poster infighting elsewhere

 

[Clam Jensen]

First!

 

[Oneiro]

I was a pretty big Nico critic pretty much until the end of the '22 season but I've pretty much loved the way he's played since then. That being said, I will be disappointed if he doesn't hit that consistent 80 point mark through the rest of his prime. I think only multiple cups and a few heroic performances would shut me up.

I know some people will shit bricks over what I'm gonna say but he's definitely on track to be the most overrated Devil in the history of the team. For the hysterics among us: that does not mean I don't love him.

 

[The Grinder]

I’m tired boss.

 

[Billdo]

I was a pretty big Nico critic pretty much until the end of the '22 season but I've pretty much loved the way he's played since then. That being said, I will be disappointed if he doesn't hit that consistent 80 point mark through the rest of his prime. I think only multiple cups and a few heroic performances would shut me up.

I know some people will shit bricks over what I'm gonna say but he's definitely on track to be the most overrated Devil in the history of the team. For the hysterics among us: that does not mean I don't love him.

That is absolutely insane.

 

[My3Sons]

I was a pretty big Nico critic pretty much until the end of the '22 season but I've pretty much loved the way he's played since then. That being said, I will be disappointed if he doesn't hit that consistent 80 point mark through the rest of his prime. I think only multiple cups and a few heroic performances would shut me up.

I know some people will shit bricks over what I'm gonna say but he's definitely on track to be the most overrated Devil in the history of the team. For the hysterics among us: that does not mean I don't love him.

So the guy who has been traded for Laine and compared to a third liner is overrated?

 

[Better Call Sal]

I know some people will shit bricks over what I'm gonna say but he's definitely on track to be the most overrated Devil in the history of the team. For the hysterics among us: that does not mean I don't love him.

 

[Oneiro]

So the guy who has been traded for Laine and compared to a third liner is overrated?

I know you saw it before everyone else, I admit it's a mildly spicy take.

And again, I love the guy. He's a class act, he works hard and I'm well aware of the GAR numbers. But if we're doing dumb hypotheticals and trading this guy and that guy and all that...He's being talked about in terms of being like Toews, Kopitar, Barkov, etc. and I still have my 'Hmmm' hat on. I thought his Selke nom in '23 was a bit generous and we've only got one 80 pt season from him. Cross era comparisons are difficult and a futile exercise. We know this. But is he really better than Parise was for us? Maybe Gomez or MacLean are more overrated. I just think he's escaped criticism over the years for a lot of soft, anecdotal reasons and I question how much top end skill is really there. Jack is probably the best thing to ever happen to him.

(Again for the bedwetters, just shooting the shit here. I am glad he's ours.)

 

[Triumph]

I know you saw it before everyone else, I admit it's a mildly spicy take.

And again, I love the guy. He's a class act, he works hard and I'm well aware of the GAR numbers. But if we're doing dumb hypotheticals and trading this guy and that guy and all that...He's being talked about in terms of being like Toews, Kopitar, Barkov, etc. and I still have my 'Hmmm' hat on. I thought his Selke nom in '23 was a bit generous and we've only got one 80 pt season from him. Cross era comparisons are difficult and a futile exercise. We know this. But is he really better than Parise was for us? Maybe Gomez or MacLean are more overrated. I just think he's escaped criticism over the years for a lot of soft, anecdotal reasons and I question how much top end skill is really there. Jack is probably the best thing to ever happen to him.

(Again for the bedwetters, just shooting the shit here. I am glad he's ours.)

Parise only had 2 great seasons here, but also he was just a totally different sort of player - I wouldn't call Parise great defensively, but obviously he was just incredible around the net and on the boards and was just constantly generating offense.

Nico doesn't have one standout skill. I've always described him as worse Crosby. He's just an exceptionally smart player who does everything well but doesn't do anything great - Crosby just does everything a level above Nico but is a similar sort of player.

More overrated players by the Devils fanbase I would nominate Pandolfo or Daneyko - Daneyko was a heart and soul player but I suspect he was not a top 4 D for much of the back half of his career. Hischier was overrated defensively for the first part of his career - he was sold as a defensive player but really wasn't much of one 5v5 - but that's all changed, he is in that top tier of two-way centers.

 

[Better Call Sal]

Parise only had 2 great seasons here, but also he was just a totally different sort of player - I wouldn't call Parise great defensively, but obviously he was just incredible around the net and on the boards and was just constantly generating offense.

Nico doesn't have one standout skill. I've always described him as worse Crosby. He's just an exceptionally smart player who does everything well but doesn't do anything great - Crosby just does everything a level above Nico but is a similar sort of player.

More overrated players by the Devils fanbase I would nominate Pandolfo or Daneyko - Daneyko was a heart and soul player but I suspect he was not a top 4 D for much of the back half of his career. Hischier was overrated defensively for the first part of his career - he was sold as a defensive player but really wasn't much of one 5v5 - but that's all changed, he is in that top tier of two-way centers.

What made Zach a solid enough player defensively was just his sheer relentlessness. He had an elite motor and wouldn't give the opposition an inch. He would pull off some really impressive backchecks by just going full bore back to his zone.

I'd agree if I had to label any Devil as overrated, those two are probably the closest ones to earn it. I hate labeling any Devil with that of course.

 

[Oneiro]

Parise only had 2 great seasons here, but also he was just a totally different sort of player - I wouldn't call Parise great defensively, but obviously he was just incredible around the net and on the boards and was just constantly generating offense.

Nico doesn't have one standout skill. I've always described him as worse Crosby. He's just an exceptionally smart player who does everything well but doesn't do anything great - Crosby just does everything a level above Nico but is a similar sort of player.

More overrated players by the Devils fanbase I would nominate Pandolfo or Daneyko - Daneyko was a heart and soul player but I suspect he was not a top 4 D for much of the back half of his career. Hischier was overrated defensively for the first part of his career - he was sold as a defensive player but really wasn't much of one 5v5 - but that's all changed, he is in that top tier of two-way centers.

Fair points. I think this all comes down to wanting to see more on the offensive side from him, and, as you mentioned, the defensive side being overrated for a bit in the past. But he was fantastic tonight and it was pretty textbook argument for his value.

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

Prime Parise was better than Nico, 08-09 Parise is the 3rd best Devils season for a forward I've seen I'd argue besides Kovy in 11-12 (minutes he played that year + him legit carrying that team's offense was insane) + 22-23 Jack Hughes. That being said, Nico is still an awesome player. Do I think he's maybe overrated a bit? Maybe, I guess but he's still a tremendous player. Teams like the Avs/Canes would do absurd things for a player like him to have at 2C with how they've been in shambles in that spot since Kadri left Colorado and Canes haven't had a 2C in forever in their competing window

 

[My3Sons]

I know you saw it before everyone else, I admit it's a mildly spicy take.

And again, I love the guy. He's a class act, he works hard and I'm well aware of the GAR numbers. But if we're doing dumb hypotheticals and trading this guy and that guy and all that...He's being talked about in terms of being like Toews, Kopitar, Barkov, etc. and I still have my 'Hmmm' hat on. I thought his Selke nom in '23 was a bit generous and we've only got one 80 pt season from him. Cross era comparisons are difficult and a futile exercise. We know this. But is he really better than Parise was for us? Maybe Gomez or MacLean are more overrated. I just think he's escaped criticism over the years for a lot of soft, anecdotal reasons and I question how much top end skill is really there. Jack is probably the best thing to ever happen to him.

(Again for the bedwetters, just shooting the shit here. I am glad he's ours.)

Hischier is not quite Kopitar or Barkov but he’s a matter of degree less of a player. At least to me. He’s at least in the discussion when that sort of player is evaluated. That’s pretty good. Not someone you trade away for Laine or whoever the latest faded star that might be out there.

 

[Bleedred]

Definitely agree on the Pandolfo being the most overrated Devil. I’ve said that a lot.

Sometimes I feel like it’s Kovalchuk, but at least he was actually good.

I think Madden was the muscle of those two and once he stopped being a good shutdown player, Pandolfo stopped being good at basically everything.

I’ve also said Madden is a bit overrated, but I still liked him a whole lot. I think Travis Zajac was better and for longer, he just wasn’t here for any cups.

Madden was still a good player until probably his last season here, but he probably wasn’t a great shutdown guy anymore by about 2006-2007.

 

[NjDevsRR]

Taylor Halls 17/18 season is still the single greatest season by a Devils forward I have ever seen. Better than Elias, Parise, Kovy and Hughes.

The dude had minimal support and was doing it all by himself. I have never seen such determination before. I watch this video every once in a while and it still amazes me. He is willing these goals in all by himself.

 

[PKs Broken Stick]

How exactly is Nico overrated? He's constantly memed at as being a 3C here

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

Taylor Halls 17/18 season is still the single greatest season by a Devils forward I have ever seen. Better than Elias, Parise, Kovy and Hughes.

The dude had minimal support and was doing it all by himself. I have never seen such determination before. I watch this video every once in a while and it still amazes me. He is willing these goals in all by himself.

Duh I'm an idiot for not remembering 17/18 Hall, would put him at 1, 22-23 Jack at 2, 11-12 Kovy at 3 and 08-09 Parise at 4.

 

[NjDevsRR]

Duh I'm an idiot for not remembering 17/18 Hall, would put him at 1, 22-23 Jack at 2, 11-12 Kovy at 3 and 08-09 Parise at 4.

For me:

Hall 17-18
Elias 00-01 (even as a 10 year old I was like gahdDAYUMN)
Parise 08-09

 

[Ekiru]

Kirk Muller's 21yo season to help the Devils get their first ever playoff appearance; 94 points is sweet

 

[dzubrus8]

Possibly in line with this Nico talk, what do people see as Jack's ceiling? Is he going to earn a place in the conversation with McDavid, MacKinnon, Draisaitl, Crosby as best center in the league? I hear him in those conversations but I wonder if he's actually at that point if it's more so based on his still untapped potential and some of his highlight reel plays.

In my mind, I'm wondering if he'll wind up a center version of a Kucherov / Panarin / Gaudreau / Marner, 86's injuries notwithstanding. Don't get me wrong it'd still be a wonderful outcome but not a franchise talent in the same way as the aforementioned centers.

 

[tailfins]

Possibly in line with this Nico talk, what do people see as Jack's ceiling? Is he going to earn a place in the conversation with McDavid, MacKinnon, Draisaitl, Crosby as best center in the league? I hear him in those conversations but I wonder if he's actually at that point if it's more so based on his still untapped potential and some of his highlight reel plays.

In my mind, I'm wondering if he'll wind up a center version of a Kucherov / Panarin / Gaudreau / Marner, 86's injuries notwithstanding. Don't get me wrong it'd still be a wonderful outcome but not a franchise talent in the same way as the aforementioned centers.

Kuch is absolutely a franchise talent / in the convo for best player in the league. If Jack can be like him, Devils win at least one cup.

 

[thebeernerd]

Possibly in line with this Nico talk, what do people see as Jack's ceiling? Is he going to earn a place in the conversation with McDavid, MacKinnon, Draisaitl, Crosby as best center in the league? I hear him in those conversations but I wonder if he's actually at that point if it's more so based on his still untapped potential and some of his highlight reel plays.

In my mind, I'm wondering if he'll wind up a center version of a Kucherov / Panarin / Gaudreau / Marner, 86's injuries notwithstanding. Don't get me wrong it'd still be a wonderful outcome but not a franchise talent in the same way as the aforementioned centers.

I think Jack is a tier below those top-flight centers. That's not a slight on him because, obviously, they're the best of the best. But I don't see Jack carrying the Devils in the same way as a McDavid or Crosby. That's also assuming he hasn't inherited Ellen's awful injury luck, which so far it seems like he has.

 

[dzubrus8]

Kuch is absolutely a franchise talent / in the convo for best player in the league. If Jack can be like him, Devils win at least one cup.

re: the first part, let's say Panarin / Gaudreau / Marner then. I personally wouldn't put Kucherov in that MacK / McD / Drai / possibly even Matthews pantheon but I could see why some would. Wingers will naturally face a higher burden of proof to be considered the best but if there currently is a winger who can make that claim it would be Kuch.

Sadly I strongly disagree on the second part.

I can't point to only one team that has won the cup in the last 10 years with one or fewer superstar. Florida (Barkov, Tkachuk, Reinhart), Vegas (tbh probably wouldn't call anybody on that year's team a true superstar), Avs (MacK, Rantanen, Makar), TBL (Kucherov, Stamkos, Point, Hedman, Vas), WSH (Ovy, Backstrom, Carlson), Pit (Crosby, Malkin, Guentzel, Letang). All of those forwards are probably better than Bratt, almost certainly better than Nico, and all those defenders are better than the Devils' defensemen, at least currently.

And then you look at the other 'best-in-the-league' candidates and see how many cups they've won: McDavid/Draisaitl (crazy that they're on the same team): 0; Marner/Matthews: 0; Panarin: 1 (when he was a youngster and not a main player on that Blackhawks squad); Kaprizov (still early): 0.

 

[Clam Jensen]

Kuch is absolutely a franchise talent / in the convo for best player in the league. If Jack can be like him, Devils win at least one cup.

Kuch is a no-doubter franchise talent. Some of the counting stats he’s put up are absurd, and he’s a nasty little pain in the ass too.

 

[dzubrus8]

I think Jack is a tier below those top-flight centers. That's not a slight on him because, obviously, they're the best of the best. But I don't see Jack carrying the Devils in the same way as a McDavid or Crosby. That's also assuming he hasn't inherited Ellen's awful injury luck, which so far it seems like he has.

which is still great and I'm very happy to have him on this team and where he goes the team goes etc. etc.

I think he's actually more than 1 tier below them and his ceiling is likely a tier below them, which seems to be what you're saying when you say "I don't see Jack carrying the Devils in the same way as a McDavid or Crosby" that means he doesn't make it to their level, which is what I'm defining as 1 tier below being "his ceiling"