Devils discussion (news, notes and speculation) - part III

[theoptimist]

10 years. He's been at the table for 10 years.

 

[Forge]

Would Nemec Mercer Gritsyuk and a 2nd ?

There's no high A level prospect involved. Mercer is just a guy... One of these middle six wings who gets traded for a 2+3 every year. This feels like taking 4 quarters rather than a dollar.

Feel like other teams can beat that pretty easily. If Ottawa wants futures, I think teams would offer a higher end prospect than anything in that deal. If they want NHL players, Mercer is just a dude and would get smoked in trade value

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

I used to be Nemec > Casey . Now I’m not too sure what to think . It can always change and they each bring different attributes to the game . But for now, I’m a little disappointed in Nemecs development . Especially after last year where he looked like a NHL Dmsn at age. 20. Now he looks a little lost and his skating is a concern . For now anyways

Naah, it's always been Casey.

 

[Forge]

McCann really is kind of the perfect target in a nemec trade if you're looking to move him.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

McCann really is kind of the perfect target in a nemec trade if you're looking to move him.

the idea I had a few weeks ago was Nemec + Haula for McCann + Gourde (50% retained)

balance it out with picks if necessary

 

[New Jerseys Devil]

You don't see the logic that having multiple options at RD (Hamilton, Pesce, Kovacevic, Casey) would make a player at that same position available? You say Casey hasn't played 10 NHL games and completely ignore his pre NHL accomplishments as a 2nd round pick that was one of the best players in college and is currently killing it in Utica this season. Kovacevic was a solid bottom pairing defenseman in Montreal, It's also not unheard for some players to take another step up in their game later in their career.

Both things can be true. Nemec has underperformed and the Devils have other options at RD. Nemec also has the most value due to his previous draft status, position and solid rookie season and because of this he's the type of player that has more value to other teams then he does to his current team, making him the most obvious trade candidate.

I dont think Nemec has underperformed at all though. The kid was an NHL defenseman at 19 and then an injury derailed the beginning of this season for him. Even in the A, on a very bad team, hes managed to get his totals back up; Seamus wasnt exactly lighting the league on fire either

And no, I dont see the logic in it actually lol. what does Kovacevic have to do with Nemec, someone who we drafted with the idea to be a top-pairing defenseman? Kovacevic isnt that and almost positively wont be. Hamilton is on his way out in the next year or two, and Pesce can play both sides as has been proven during his career and short time here

Unless the conversation boils down to 'we can only keep one of Nemec or Casey', I dont see the need to be insinuating he is best used as a trade-piece. Not to mention they play two different styles of hockey and could certainly make for a formidable defense together on our right-side

To me, it seems like the negatives being put against him are more about wanting to rush and improve the team than they are actual concerns. Most NHL pundits thought he was quite responsible in his own end for a teenager; now all of a sudden he cant defend well? His skating cant improve?

It just feels a bit NFL-ish to be to be claiming we need to readjust our expectations on a just-turned 21 year old.. because he isnt with the big club right now? Most can see the circumstances that led to this; even Simon is on record as having said as much

I dont fault anyone for wanting to move on from a prospect; I get it, were young already and want to start winning and contending soon. I also dont think thats reason enough to abandon a possible future anchor for our defense; nor do I feel the expectations have changed

 

[forceten]

The issue with the quick fix of "trade nemec for young forward" is that you'll never get the same value I don't think. When I look at it I think we had a choice between Nemec (who we felt was the best defenseman) and Logan Cooley. Cooley would be great right now... but we can't trade Nemec for him or someone of his caliber. That's the issue I have with it.

 

[guitarguyvic]

People keep pointing it out but dare I say I think Nemec was not as good last year as everyone seems to think. Our defense was a hot mess collectively, maybe he didn’t fare as bad as you’d expect for a rookie in that situation but I don’t think he was necessarily lights out. Yeah I know there’s some metrics that say otherwise but that’s not the end all be all.

It appears he’s regressed but perhaps it’s not as much of a step backwards as people believe.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

People keep pointing it out but dare I say I think Nemec was not as good last year as everyone seems to think. Our defense was a hot mess collectively, maybe he didn’t fare as bad as you’d expect for a rookie in that situation but I don’t think he was necessarily lights out. Yeah I know there’s some metrics that say otherwise but that’s not the end all be all.

It appears he’s regressed but perhaps it’s not as much of a step backwards as people believe.

Yeah he really fell off halfway through his rookie season.

 

[Monsieur Verdoux]

the idea I had a few weeks ago was Nemec + Haula for McCann + Gourde (50% retained)

balance it out with picks if necessary

The problem with this is Haula's contract and his NTC, at least if you want to make this trade before next season.

 

[guitarguyvic]

Yeah he really fell off halfway through his rookie season.

I was not one of them but there was certainly a very small contingent of posters who believed Nemec was part of last year’s issue on D. Those folks mostly chalked it up to him being a rookie, and frankly he really still is a pup so that may still apply. I think if we weren’t so desperate for help up front people would be a lot more inclined to give him more time.

 

[New Jerseys Devil]

Yeah he really fell off halfway through his rookie season.

Thats hardly a knock on a 19 year old defenseman.. let alone one on a team that was decimated with injuries to its best players, forcing him to play 20 minutes a night against top competition

Hitting the proverbial rookie wall is a term for a reason!

 

[New Jerseys Devil]

I was not one of them but there was certainly a very small contingent of posters who believed Nemec was part of last year’s issue on D. Those folks mostly chalked it up to him being a rookie, and frankly he really still is a pup so that may still apply. I think if we weren’t so desperate for help up front people would be a lot more inclined to give him more time.

This is how it feels to me, though im not singling anyone out. It sounds more like impatience and a (arguably unwarranted) nitpicking of his skillset

Im not insinuating Simon is some surefire #1 either. But those counting him out before hes played a full season of games need to also look at the ages of our best players and realize we are still a few years or more away; and those cheap, easily-retained players are major assets to have

I wouldnt say its 'hate' or 'bias' against Simon, but it does seem unfair to him

 

[Oneiro]

This is how it feels to me, though im not singling anyone out. It sounds more like impatience and a (arguably unwarranted) nitpicking of his skillset

Im not insinuating Simon is some surefire #1 either. But those counting him out before hes played a full season of games need to also look at the ages of our best players and realize we are still a few years or more away; and those cheap, easily-retained players are major assets to have

I wouldnt say its 'hate' or 'bias' against Simon, but it does seem unfair to him

Totally valid point of view. I also tend to think our real window is later, but I doubt Fitz is viewing things that way on principle.

I'm a little worried about specific flaws in his game that have always been there pre-draft. Like he wants to play that rover, pseudo-QB two way role that guys like Heiskanen or Fox are very good at, but he's not sharp enough with details in the d-zone to get ahead of the play and transition fast. He's very poised until he's not, I guess. I forget the words Fitz used but he talked about the lack of pressure and intensity in Nemec's game. And, I agree, it's not something you turn around or expect from a young player in a few months but I think many of us were hoping there would be an obvious jump.

 

[guitarguyvic]

This is how it feels to me, though im not singling anyone out. It sounds more like impatience and a (arguably unwarranted) nitpicking of his skillset

Im not insinuating Simon is some surefire #1 either. But those counting him out before hes played a full season of games need to also look at the ages of our best players and realize we are still a few years or more away; and those cheap, easily-retained players are major assets to have

I wouldnt say its 'hate' or 'bias' against Simon, but it does seem unfair to him

I don’t think it’s people being unfair. I just do think we have a desperate need for upgrading our forwards, and he’s one of the few big trade chips we have that would be taken from a position of strength (RD).

We’re just in a tough spot. Fitz made the D much better while letting the F get much worse over the last two years. You don’t have to be a wizard to figure out that’s two steps ahead and one step back.

 

[Lou Bloom]

I dont think Nemec has underperformed at all though. The kid was an NHL defenseman at 19 and then an injury derailed the beginning of this season for him. Even in the A, on a very bad team, hes managed to get his totals back up; Seamus wasnt exactly lighting the league on fire either

He absolutely has underperformed, His defensive positioning has been a consistent problem in his game even going back to his pre draft days in Slovakia and the fact it's still an issue even in Utica is a big concern in his game moving forward. Add in his positioning issues with his lack of high end skating and lack of physicality and you're left with a very big concern in his defensive game.

And no, I dont see the logic in it actually lol. what does Kovacevic have to do with Nemec, someone who we drafted with the idea to be a top-pairing defenseman? Kovacevic isnt that and almost positively wont be. Hamilton is on his way out in the next year or two, and Pesce can play both sides as has been proven during his career and short time here

Just because a player was drafted with the hope of becoming a top pairing defenseman doesn't mean we can't readjust those expectations three years down the line. If I thought that Nemec was a surefire top pairing defenseman then of course you hold onto him, but I don't see that, I see a good but flawed prospec that's far from untouchable.

As for Kovacevic, he has everything to do with Nemec because Hamilton and Pesce are locked in long term on the Right side and the Devils have Casey in the system to replace Hamilton's offensive creation down the line (along with Luke getting more run). If Kovacevic is re-signed then Nemec is blocked and he clearly doesn't want to be in the AHL again next season. Even if you want to make the argument Pesce can play both sides you still have Luke, Siegs and Dillon with Silayev on the left side. Again the defense is crowded while the forward core is bereft of talent.

Unless the conversation boils down to 'we can only keep one of Nemec or Casey', I dont see the need to be insinuating he is best used as a trade-piece. Not to mention they play two different styles of hockey and could certainly make for a formidable defense together on our right-side

He's best used as a trade piece because:
1. The Devils are loaded on defense, particularly the right side with Hamilton, Pesce, Kovacevic (If Re-signed) and Casey.
2. The Devils have very little in forward depth both on the NHL roster and in the system.
3. Nemec still has draft pedigree and plays a valuable position which means the Devils can still get a solid ROI for him even if it doesn't equate to 2nd overall value.

To me, it seems like the negatives being put against him are more about wanting to rush and improve the team than they are actual concerns. Most NHL pundits thought he was quite responsible in his own end for a teenager; now all of a sudden he cant defend well? His skating cant improve?

Those NHL pundits were from three years ago, We have three additional years of watching Nemec to where we can re-evaluate our opinion of him. You do realize that Draft pundits have moved a bunch of 17 and 18 year olds up and down their boards based off a single year of data but we can't re-adjust our opinion of Nemec three years after drafting him?

It just feels a bit NFL-ish to be to be claiming we need to readjust our expectations on a just-turned 21 year old.. because he isnt with the big club right now? Most can see the circumstances that led to this; even Simon is on record as having said as much

Players are moved up and down draft boards based off of their age 17/18 seasons. Why can't we re-adjust our view of Nemec based on his play from 18-21? Nobody is saying he's a bust, we're saying he's closer to a good prospect than an elite one and therefore should be on the market due to a bigger need at forward.

I dont fault anyone for wanting to move on from a prospect; I get it, were young already and want to start winning and contending soon. I also dont think thats reason enough to abandon a possible future anchor for our defense; nor do I feel the expectations have changed

That's because you see him as a future anchor of our defense and I don't view him similarly.

 

[Lou Bloom]

This is how it feels to me, though im not singling anyone out. It sounds more like impatience and a (arguably unwarranted) nitpicking of his skillset

Im not insinuating Simon is some surefire #1 either. But those counting him out before hes played a full season of games need to also look at the ages of our best players and realize we are still a few years or more away; and those cheap, easily-retained players are major assets to have

I wouldnt say its 'hate' or 'bias' against Simon, but it does seem unfair to him

Because you conflate people having watched more of him changing their opinions of him to "counting him out". If I watch a player during the pre-draft process and I drop him in my rankings from top 5 pick to top 15 pick am I counting him out or am I re-adjusting my opinion of a player with more viewings?

The same goes for Nemec, I can still think Nemec is a good prospect, while also thinking he's no longer an elite defensive prospect. That's not giving up on him that's re-adjusting my expectations of what kind of player he is. And with a clear need at forward, and a clear surplus at RD, it makes all the sense in the world to trade from a surplus to improve a clear deficiency.

 

[Forge]

Not sure I've seen Bob ever call something lol. But fwiw

 

[None Shall Pass]

IB is not someone to take seriously.

 

[Forge]

IB is not someone to take seriously.

Nor should you. IB been out there doing this for like a decade and it certainly hasn't been a common occurrence for him to be right