Detroit Redwings Downfall

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Isn't projection based on results? My point is that you should reconsider your projection of Danielson as a 1C in light of the fact that he's performing (at the same age, in the same league) like a guy who projects as a fourth liner.

I remember Danielson as more of a high floor, low upside pick. Much like MBS this year. I think a valid criticism of the Red Wings is that they have started picking unexciting but safe prospects when they should be swinging for the fences, as they lack proven gamechangers. Arguing that Kasper and Danielson are well on their way to stardom is pure cope at this point.

This isn’t just my opinion — it’s supported by reputable hockey analysis, at least by HFBoards standards. Multiple scouts and analysts project Nate Danielson as a legitimate top-6 center at the NHL level, citing his strong two-way game, skating, and hockey IQ. His development path so far aligns with what you’d expect from a future impact player.

What Supports a Top-6 Projection:

  • Strong WHL Production: He put up solid numbers on a struggling Brandon team, showing he can drive play even without elite support.
  • Two-Way Game: Scouts consistently praise his responsible 200-ft play, which is a hallmark of reliable NHL centers.
  • Physical Tools: Good size, skating, and hockey IQ — all traits that project well for a top-6 role.
  • AHL Impact: Early signs in Grand Rapids suggest he’s adjusting well to pro hockey, showing flashes of being one of the more effective players on the ice.

What Might Hold Him Back:

  • No Standout "Elite" Skill: Some argue he lacks that one high-end offensive tool (like a shot or vision) to be a true 1C.
  • Production Ceiling?: While solid, his numbers haven’t been eye-popping — more in line with a safe, middle-six projection.
His development mostly aligns with being a future top-6 center, especially as a 2C. He’s trending well, but not without question marks. If his offense continues to grow at the pro level, he could absolutely fit that 1C role.

Good read: How Red Wings prospects like Nate Danielson are progressing in the AHL with Grand Rapids
 
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You’re completely discounting Kasper playing the first half of the season on the. 3rd and 4th lines with players that wish they were half as good as Tatar.
Haven't followed this this convo, but Suzuki almost never played with Tatar (less than 1% of his ice time). He was literally playing on Nate Thompson's wing on the 4th line 1st half of his rookie year. His most common linemates were Nick Cousins, Jordan weal, joel armia. In the 2nd half he saw time with Lekhonen (back when he was a 30 point player), Domi who reverted back to his career average of 40 points and the shell of Kovalchuk.

At no point in the season did he play with players half as good offensively as Kane, Larkin and Raymond. There's no comparison to be made here, Kasper played almost 50% of his ice time this entire season with Debrincat/Raymond/Larkin/Kane who are all better than anyone Suzuki played with.
 
I realize that you haven't read my post properly. This is my argument :

« Detroit fans are telling us Raymond is the team's best player, while Slaf is not close to the best Canadien. That's precisely why the Habs are better : they have higher end talent with the emergence of Suzuki and Hutson. Detroit is still waiting for their franchise-level talent, and since they seem hell-bent on barely missing the playoffs every year, that wait could be very long. »
Ranked in terms of production:

89 - Suzuki
80 - Raymond
70 - Debrincat
70 - Caufield
70 - Larkin
66 - Hutson
59 - Kane
51 - Slafkovsky
46 - Seider
38 - Gallagher

Seems pretty evenly split. Both teams have an older guy there (Kane, Gallagher), and Detroit probably has the best two youngsters just outside the list (Kasper, Edvinsson).

Additionally, the refusal to give Seider credit needs to stop. Yes, he's not as dynamic offensively as Hutson, but if you're unable to see the gargantuan difference defensively you're probably not trying very hard.

1745825010532.png


I see Detroit is so devoid of offensive talent that pedestrian production in a cherry-picked 28 game sample is considered torching the league.
Even strength points in 2025:

Kasper - 29 in 45GP
Slafkovsky - 26 in 45GP

If you want to put Slafkovsky on Raymond's level based on EV production, it's pretty dishonest to write off Kasper as "pedestrian".
 
I see Detroit is so devoid of offensive talent that pedestrian production in a cherry-picked 28 game sample is considered torching the league.

Danielson is producing about as much as Florian Xhekaj, a 4th round pick from the Habs from that same draft, and the latter is generally seen as a future 4th liner. If the future of your top line hinges on Danielson, it's safe to say the Yzerplan should be Yzerpanned.

Danielson's production would be a lot more concerning if we didn't have to listen to the same exact bullshit about Kasper last season lmao.
 
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Ranked in terms of production:

89 - Suzuki
80 - Raymond
70 - Debrincat
70 - Caufield
70 - Larkin
66 - Hutson
59 - Kane
51 - Slafkovsky
46 - Seider
38 - Gallagher

Seems pretty evenly split. Both teams have an older guy there (Kane, Gallagher), and Detroit probably has the best two youngsters just outside the list (Kasper, Edvinsson).

Additionally, the refusal to give Seider credit needs to stop. Yes, he's not as dynamic offensively as Hutson, but if you're unable to see the gargantuan difference defensively you're probably not trying very hard.

View attachment 1024754


Even strength points in 2025:

Kasper - 29 in 45GP
Slafkovsky - 26 in 45GP

If you want to put Slafkovsky on Raymond's level based on EV production, it's pretty dishonest to write off Kasper as "pedestrian".
I think a pissing match between draft picks in both teams current rebuild is kind of silly.

While imo neither team has drafted a superstar the Habs look worse considering how much higher their picks have been.
Unless Demidov lives up to the ridiculous hype on him, Raymond is by far the pick from either team and the wings have the best overall Dman in Seider and a few other good ones in Edvinson and the dude taken with the nucks pick.

I personally am not a huge fan of Hutson for the simple fact that while points are nice, he can never be a top pairing Dman because he's very unlikely to ever good enough on defense and will always have to be sheltered. I actually think he's gonna regress next season because teams will have more of a book in him and because the Habs will at some point need to play him in harder roles, plus the team in general had amazing puck luck all year. Maybe I'm wrong but in Vancouver in Quinns second full season he struggled defensively when he got harder assignments but Quinn at the same age was already better defensively and was able to adapt and use his skating and positioning something that I just don't see in Hutson

That being said both young cores as of now have lots of good players but I don't see any elite, elite level players and are gonna have to be big in the UFA and trade scene if they wanna become playoff teams regularly opposed to a one off like the Habs this year who had everything go right for them, at least in my opinion.
 
While imo neither team has drafted a superstar the Habs look worse considering how much higher their picks have been.
Unless Demidov lives up to the ridiculous hype on him, Raymond is by far the pick from either team and the wings have the best overall Dman in Seider and a few other good ones in Edvinson and the dude taken with the nucks pick.
Habs highest picks are younger. Demidov (4 drafts after Raymond) meeting Lucas Raymond level ability is far from a crazy ask.
 
I think a pissing match between draft picks in both teams current rebuild is kind of silly.

While imo neither team has drafted a superstar the Habs look worse considering how much higher their picks have been.
Unless Demidov lives up to the ridiculous hype on him, Raymond is by far the pick from either team and the wings have the best overall Dman in Seider and a few other good ones in Edvinson and the dude taken with the nucks pick.

I personally am not a huge fan of Hutson for the simple fact that while points are nice, he can never be a top pairing Dman because he's very unlikely to ever good enough on defense and will always have to be sheltered. I actually think he's gonna regress next season because teams will have more of a book in him and because the Habs will at some point need to play him in harder roles, plus the team in general had amazing puck luck all year. Maybe I'm wrong but in Vancouver in Quinns second full season he struggled defensively when he got harder assignments but Quinn at the same age was already better defensively and was able to adapt and use his skating and positioning something that I just don't see in Hutson

That being said both young cores as of now have lots of good players but I don't see any elite, elite level players and are gonna have to be big in the UFA and trade scene if they wanna become playoff teams regularly opposed to a one off like the Habs this year who had everything go right for them, at least in my opinion.
Hahaha you wish , this reads like a post from your buddy Dotter
 
I don't see a ton of holes in their lineup to be honest, and a lot of youth. They need Cossa to pan out, some depth on D, and they're basically there. Just gotta let the young D bake in the oven a little longer. Same as my Habs.

I think they are in a tough race with Montreal, Ottawa and Buffalo to come out of the ashes of the Atlantic. Montreal's rebuild vs Detroit's rebuild is interesting banter but probably both teams will get better over the next 5 years. Likely at the expense of some older eastern teams.
 
I really dislike when fanbases on this site are willfully obtuse about other teams players. Yes Detroit has made mistakes in their rebuild, yes they likely still have a long way to go, no their drafting has not been bad whatsoever. Yes Seider and Raymond still have elite potential. Seider was elite defensively this season. If you expect respect be given to your players you have to give it back to other teams players as well.

This thread should obviously be closed, there’s so many trolls at this point just trying to rage bait and get engagement with stupid comments.
 
Last edited:
It's just missing being half written by chatGPT

The “Yzerplan” — referring to Detroit Red Wings General Manager Steve Yzerman’s long-term rebuild plan — is often said to be failing by critics for a few key reasons:

1. Lack of True Elite Talent
• Despite several years of high draft picks (Moritz Seider, Lucas Raymond, etc.), the Red Wings have not landed or developed a game-breaking superstar like Connor McDavid, Nathan MacKinnon, or Auston Matthews.
• Seider and Raymond are very good players, but critics argue that they are not franchise-carrying talents — more like high-end complementary pieces.
• Missing on lottery wins (e.g., falling out of the top three multiple years) hurt, but other teams have managed to draft or develop elite players even without No. 1 picks.

2. Mid-Tier Veterans Blocking Growth
• Yzerman has brought in a lot of mid-level veterans (Andrew Copp, JT Compher, Jeff Petry, Ben Chiarot) on fairly expensive deals.
• Critics argue these players block younger prospects and lock the team into mediocrity rather than bottoming out for elite talent.
• This creates a “good enough to not be terrible, not good enough to contend” treadmill.

3. Goaltending Instability
• Detroit has lacked a true No. 1 goalie throughout the rebuild. Ville Husso showed flashes but has struggled with injuries and consistency.
• Without elite or even consistently strong goaltending, the team has a low ceiling no matter how improved the roster is.

4. Inconsistent Drafting and Prospect Development
• Early Yzerman drafts (especially 2020) are looking weaker than hoped. Picks like Lucas Raymond were hits, but others (e.g., William Wallinder, Shai Buium) have not turned into surefire NHLers yet.
• Prospect pool depth is good, but the star power pipeline is questionable.

5. The Atlantic Division is Brutal
• Detroit’s rebuild is happening in the hardest division in hockey.
• Tampa, Toronto, Boston, and now Florida are powerhouses; Ottawa, Buffalo, and Montreal are also rebuilding and jockeying for the same window.
• Even if Detroit improves, there are fewer playoff spots available, making the rebuild look slower or worse than it might otherwise.

6. Mixed Messages on Rebuild Timeline
• After years of slow patient moves, Yzerman’s big spending in 2022 and 2023 (free agency and trades) suggested a pivot toward winning.
• Yet the results haven’t caught up, leaving fans confused whether the team is rebuilding, retooling, or trying to contend now.



In short:
The Yzerplan isn’t a total disaster — Detroit is much better than when he took over — but it’s failing to produce a true Stanley Cup contender so far because there’s no superstar, the depth is “pretty good but not great,” the path to improvement is blocked by mid-tier veterans, and the Atlantic Division is punishing. It feels stuck between two worlds: not rebuilding hard enough to get elite talent, but not winning enough to validate the veteran signings.
 
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The “Yzerplan” — referring to Detroit Red Wings General Manager Steve Yzerman’s long-term rebuild plan — is often said to be failing by critics for a few key reasons:

1. Lack of True Elite Talent
• Despite several years of high draft picks (Moritz Seider, Lucas Raymond, etc.), the Red Wings have not landed or developed a game-breaking superstar like Connor McDavid, Nathan MacKinnon, or Auston Matthews.
• Seider and Raymond are very good players, but critics argue that they are not franchise-carrying talents — more like high-end complementary pieces.
• Missing on lottery wins (e.g., falling out of the top three multiple years) hurt, but other teams have managed to draft or develop elite players even without No. 1 picks.

2. Mid-Tier Veterans Blocking Growth
• Yzerman has brought in a lot of mid-level veterans (Andrew Copp, JT Compher, Jeff Petry, Ben Chiarot) on fairly expensive deals.
• Critics argue these players block younger prospects and lock the team into mediocrity rather than bottoming out for elite talent.
• This creates a “good enough to not be terrible, not good enough to contend” treadmill.

3. Goaltending Instability
• Detroit has lacked a true No. 1 goalie throughout the rebuild. Ville Husso showed flashes but has struggled with injuries and consistency.
• Without elite or even consistently strong goaltending, the team has a low ceiling no matter how improved the roster is.

4. Inconsistent Drafting and Prospect Development
• Early Yzerman drafts (especially 2020) are looking weaker than hoped. Picks like Lucas Raymond were hits, but others (e.g., William Wallinder, Shai Buium) have not turned into surefire NHLers yet.
• Prospect pool depth is good, but the star power pipeline is questionable.

5. The Atlantic Division is Brutal
• Detroit’s rebuild is happening in the hardest division in hockey.
• Tampa, Toronto, Boston, and now Florida are powerhouses; Ottawa, Buffalo, and Montreal are also rebuilding and jockeying for the same window.
• Even if Detroit improves, there are fewer playoff spots available, making the rebuild look slower or worse than it might otherwise.

6. Mixed Messages on Rebuild Timeline
• After years of slow patient moves, Yzerman’s big spending in 2022 and 2023 (free agency and trades) suggested a pivot toward winning.
• Yet the results haven’t caught up, leaving fans confused whether the team is rebuilding, retooling, or trying to contend now.



In short:
The Yzerplan isn’t a total disaster — Detroit is much better than when he took over — but it’s failing to produce a true Stanley Cup contender so far because there’s no superstar, the depth is “pretty good but not great,” the path to improvement is blocked by mid-tier veterans, and the Atlantic Division is punishing. It feels stuck between two worlds: not rebuilding hard enough to get elite talent, but not winning enough to validate the veteran signings.
That's exactly what a lawful neutral Dotter would say.
 
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The “Yzerplan” — referring to Detroit Red Wings General Manager Steve Yzerman’s long-term rebuild plan — is often said to be failing by critics for a few key reasons:

1. Lack of True Elite Talent
• Despite several years of high draft picks (Moritz Seider, Lucas Raymond, etc.), the Red Wings have not landed or developed a game-breaking superstar like Connor McDavid, Nathan MacKinnon, or Auston Matthews.
• Seider and Raymond are very good players, but critics argue that they are not franchise-carrying talents — more like high-end complementary pieces.
• Missing on lottery wins (e.g., falling out of the top three multiple years) hurt, but other teams have managed to draft or develop elite players even without No. 1 picks.

2. Mid-Tier Veterans Blocking Growth
• Yzerman has brought in a lot of mid-level veterans (Andrew Copp, JT Compher, Jeff Petry, Ben Chiarot) on fairly expensive deals.
• Critics argue these players block younger prospects and lock the team into mediocrity rather than bottoming out for elite talent.
• This creates a “good enough to not be terrible, not good enough to contend” treadmill.

3. Goaltending Instability
• Detroit has lacked a true No. 1 goalie throughout the rebuild. Ville Husso showed flashes but has struggled with injuries and consistency.
• Without elite or even consistently strong goaltending, the team has a low ceiling no matter how improved the roster is.

4. Inconsistent Drafting and Prospect Development
• Early Yzerman drafts (especially 2020) are looking weaker than hoped. Picks like Lucas Raymond were hits, but others (e.g., William Wallinder, Shai Buium) have not turned into surefire NHLers yet.
• Prospect pool depth is good, but the star power pipeline is questionable.

5. The Atlantic Division is Brutal
• Detroit’s rebuild is happening in the hardest division in hockey.
• Tampa, Toronto, Boston, and now Florida are powerhouses; Ottawa, Buffalo, and Montreal are also rebuilding and jockeying for the same window.
• Even if Detroit improves, there are fewer playoff spots available, making the rebuild look slower or worse than it might otherwise.

6. Mixed Messages on Rebuild Timeline
• After years of slow patient moves, Yzerman’s big spending in 2022 and 2023 (free agency and trades) suggested a pivot toward winning.
• Yet the results haven’t caught up, leaving fans confused whether the team is rebuilding, retooling, or trying to contend now.



In short:
The Yzerplan isn’t a total disaster — Detroit is much better than when he took over — but it’s failing to produce a true Stanley Cup contender so far because there’s no superstar, the depth is “pretty good but not great,” the path to improvement is blocked by mid-tier veterans, and the Atlantic Division is punishing. It feels stuck between two worlds: not rebuilding hard enough to get elite talent, but not winning enough to validate the veteran signings.
Chatgpt sucks, Grok is way better!
 
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Habs highest picks are younger. Demidov (4 drafts after Raymond) meeting Lucas Raymond level ability is far from a crazy ask.
So its not crazy to say Demidov could meet Raymond's ability, but its crazy to say Kasper will meet Suzuki's?

Now they are two drafts apart. Drafted within the same let's call it section of the draft. One was 5th overall the other 8th overall.
Though their age difference is just 1 year and 8 months.
Neither of the guys development will normally be completely linear.

Yes Demidov performed better in KHL than Kasper did in SHL.
Keeping in mind, SHL usually is harder on young players than KHL.
Now Kasper did one year in the AHL to adapt better to the North American style.
While Montreal could do the same, I don't think they will with Demidov. I think they will put him in NHL from the beginning of next season. So in that sense, I believe Montreal have been better at tossing their players out in the deep end and see how it goes. Now, it doesn't automatically mean even though timeline wise compared to age, that Demidov will be best long term, there is an advantage there, though it could also be you'd see more inconsistencies in his game next season if he is staying up which is the more likely option.

Now, personally I do think Demidov will be better offensively than Kasper in terms of production, but will his full game be so much better than Kasper that it would offset how Kasper will be better defensively? It waits to be seen, its an interesting sort of duel here.

The “Yzerplan” — referring to Detroit Red Wings General Manager Steve Yzerman’s long-term rebuild plan — is often said to be failing by critics for a few key reasons:

1. Lack of True Elite Talent
• Despite several years of high draft picks (Moritz Seider, Lucas Raymond, etc.), the Red Wings have not landed or developed a game-breaking superstar like Connor McDavid, Nathan MacKinnon, or Auston Matthews.
• Seider and Raymond are very good players, but critics argue that they are not franchise-carrying talents — more like high-end complementary pieces.
• Missing on lottery wins (e.g., falling out of the top three multiple years) hurt, but other teams have managed to draft or develop elite players even without No. 1 picks.
I would say Seider and Raymond are true elite talent.
Will they be game-breaking superstars? That waits to be seen, only a select few get to that level.
Pretty sure Seider will be one of the better number 1 d-men in the league when he can settle with one or max two d-men partners and the team also gets better.

And your game-breaking superstars have 1 cup among them so far, so its not a complete necessity to gain them, even though yes obviously it would be helpful to have one.
2. Mid-Tier Veterans Blocking Growth
• Yzerman has brought in a lot of mid-level veterans (Andrew Copp, JT Compher, Jeff Petry, Ben Chiarot) on fairly expensive deals.
• Critics argue these players block younger prospects and lock the team into mediocrity rather than bottoming out for elite talent.
• This creates a “good enough to not be terrible, not good enough to contend” treadmill.

I agree on this one. That the team has too many and that the "earn your spot" argument that used to be in the past, and still is to a degree, to me more often than not is partially a wrong approach.
Now I don't disagree with that term, that you should earn it per se, but I like teams who put players in a position to give them the opportunity to win. Meaning, put players in positions where their strongest capabilities comes to its right, then develop the other aspects along the way. Which, Montreal for now might be better at. Also when you have those spots open, through the youth in there and see if they handle it.

Detroit signing mid-tier veterans I think it is okay, but they signed too many which in turn as you mention block the paths a little. There is also a fear of tossing someone out there too early, which I think is a little bit part of Detroit's history cause they in the past could afford to do so, with their team always being in the upper end of the league.

3. Goaltending Instability
• Detroit has lacked a true No. 1 goalie throughout the rebuild. Ville Husso showed flashes but has struggled with injuries and consistency.
• Without elite or even consistently strong goaltending, the team has a low ceiling no matter how improved the roster is.
Ville Husso is no longer on the team.
But yes, the team need better goaltending.
Funnily enough its on this position they have gone a bit opposite than the rest. Well the same in terms of shorter term contracts on veterans as with other positions, but opposite in terms of not going out and getting a long term option, as it looks like they want to see whether Cossa or Augustine, or both, can be "the guy" long term.

4. Inconsistent Drafting and Prospect Development
• Early Yzerman drafts (especially 2020) are looking weaker than hoped. Picks like Lucas Raymond were hits, but others (e.g., William Wallinder, Shai Buium) have not turned into surefire NHLers yet.
• Prospect pool depth is good, but the star power pipeline is questionable.

Drafting wise, its been pretty consistent. 1st round been solid. 2nd and below waits to be seen, hopefully they don't go about it from the perspective of overriping(?) many. Again, give them chances to take the spots. If it fails, okay go out spending a pick or sign in the next offseasons.

5. The Atlantic Division is Brutal
• Detroit’s rebuild is happening in the hardest division in hockey.
• Tampa, Toronto, Boston, and now Florida are powerhouses; Ottawa, Buffalo, and Montreal are also rebuilding and jockeying for the same window.
• Even if Detroit improves, there are fewer playoff spots available, making the rebuild look slower or worse than it might otherwise.

True the Atlantic is brutal at the moment. Florida, Tampa and Toronto are solid. Tampa keep at it with some re-tool to stay up there and doing well so far. Boston are re-tooling and might stay up there. Montreal, Ottawa, Buffalo and Detroit are all in the same spectre of having tools, but not full toolbox. It's key for any of them to come out of that with the right structure.

Long term hard to see who it will be, as its been changing from season to season. This season Ottawa had the most points and better end, then Montreal looks like they are closer to their long term solutions which have potential to be better than Ottawa. Then Detroit has the pieces if they develop to as a team be better than both. Then you got Buffalo which is in the mix as well.

6. Mixed Messages on Rebuild Timeline
• After years of slow patient moves, Yzerman’s big spending in 2022 and 2023 (free agency and trades) suggested a pivot toward winning.
• Yet the results haven’t caught up, leaving fans confused whether the team is rebuilding, retooling, or trying to contend now.

No one is thinking they are re-tooling or trying to contend now.
Point of it was, they weren't bad enough to tank to the bottom anymore. So they wanted to compete for playoff spot. Which they have been. But, its like you mentioned. You don't want to get stuck in this territory for too long, however, you also want to let time be on your side and let the youths you think will take spots, grow enough to take those. Whether that takes 1-2-3 more years we shall see.

In short:
The Yzerplan isn’t a total disaster — Detroit is much better than when he took over — but it’s failing to produce a true Stanley Cup contender so far because there’s no superstar, the depth is “pretty good but not great,” the path to improvement is blocked by mid-tier veterans, and the Atlantic Division is punishing. It feels stuck between two worlds: not rebuilding hard enough to get elite talent, but not winning enough to validate the veteran signings.
There is no "superstar" on Montreal, Ottawa, Detroit, Buffalo or Boston. All teams are in the same boat when it comes to generational talent. Though, there is potentials within the rosters where all teams have players who can become so. I would say each team got what we can consider stars within the league.
 
Demidov was a second overall talent fwiw. That’s where he ended on consensus scout opinion. He and Dave Reinbacher aren’t the same. Obviously nothing is a guarantee but I think Demidov projects higher than you give him credit for.
 
Demidov was a second overall talent fwiw. That’s where he ended on consensus scout opinion.
Yet he got picked 5th. Not 2nd. Which in the end, could be a better outcome for him to not have the pressure of a 2nd overall pick, even though of course you got pressure as 5th as well.
He and Dave Reinbacher aren’t the same.
That is true. I do think however that if you have a fully blossomed Reinbacher who reach his potential on your team, you got a bigger chance of winning the cup than with Demidov. It's just not as sexy opinion than picking "a points guy".
Obviously nothing is a guarantee but I think Demidov projects higher than you give him credit for.
He might get there.
Also why Danielson projects better than some people believe as well. Because all they look at is points and not development.

Obviously the best thing for us all is if all of these players goes beyond their potential and we get great performances and playoff series in the future, with more Detroit wins than not of course :)
 
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Bad enough he's botched the rebuild thus far, but now he's throwing media jabs at his best fwd instead of just taking deserved accountability is a bad sign for Wings fans... When the GMs ego is driving the bus, the cliff edge gets a lot closer.
 

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