Detroit Redwings Downfall

[Stephen]

This isn't going to be very productive, so I'll leave it at this. Marco Kasper's 20yo season compares pretty nicely to Sam Bennett's in Calgary. Axel Sandin-Pelikka's production in the SHL and in World Juniors compares quite favorably with Erik Karlsson's. Simon Edvinsson's point totals during this 21yo NHL season are comparable to Victor Hedman's. Are they going to match or exceed these guys? No idea, but to say they have no chance at becoming high quality NHL players is just dumb, IMO.

Sam Bennett isn't a model of success as far as a top 10 pick is concerned though. He produced low numbers in Calgary, got lost in the shuffle and blossomed in another location after he was given up on. So I don't think you'd want a guy like Kaspar to follow the "Bennett curve" unless you're expecting a massive breakthrough in 5-6 years.

 

[nbwingsfan]

So what's the most liberal-conservative estimates on how long Yzerman has left?

Is there any chance he already gets canned? How many more years does he get?

Seems most reasonable fans think next season if he doesn’t make it (barring major injuries) then he should be gone.

In theory if his drafts have been as good as he’s been planning then the 2C hole should be covered by Kasper and the 2RD hole should be covered by ASP.

Still needs either a 2LD (or 1LD if they split Ed-Seider) and bottom half scoring that can actually score, or 2 more elite offensive scorer.

Is that UFA or is that through trades? Going to have to find out

 

[RedHawkDown]

Makar and Hughes are better. Heiskanen has been better by the scoring numbers and underlying numbers. Dahlin just had a phenomenal season that eclipsed anything Seider has done.

So let's say Seider is the 5th best young dman currently.

Lets expand that to all young players. Well, if other teams have 10-15 better young players, and Seider is the best Detroit has, that makes it tough for Detroit to be a contender over the other teams that have better players right?

Detroit has a bunch of maybes, but their core of good, young NHL players is certainly not deep. A team like Dallas that is already a contender has guys like Robertson, Heiskanen, Johnston, Harley, and Oettinger that are all young and better than what Detroit has currently.

Can you understand why a non fan would look at Detroit's roster and be unimpressed? They still have a super long way to go to being on the level of an actual contender like Dallas.

I reject your premise that every other team's young players are better than all our young players. This is the constant bias that is kind of funny to see, really.

These arguments, as someone else said in this thread, continue to circle back to the assumption that Detroit's young guys will never get better, and all of every other team's young guys will become stars. Yes, if that happens, then we are absolutely screwed. Nobody is arguing that.

It's not unreasonable to think that Lucas Raymond - who is the highest-scoring U23 player in the NHL, the 2nd-highest scorer from the 2021 NHL draft, and has outpaced Stutzle for two seasons now- continues to improve and build on his game.

It's not unreasonable to think that Marco Kasper, who has put together a fantastic 2nd of the season, continues to improve and potentially ends up a 2C or better in the NHL.

It's not unreasonable to assume that the 24-year old previous Calder winner who has been carrying the defense for 3 seasons builds on his game as he enters his prime as a defensemen from age 26-30.

It's not unreasonable to think that Simon Edvinsson builds on a very good rookie year where he was a good 2/3D all year to get even better.

It's not unreasonable to think that ASP, who has won top WJC defenseman 2 years in a row, was among the top dmen in the SHL as a 20 year old, can come into the NHL and be a strong top-4 defenseman with potential for more.

In order for the rebuild to succeed, ASP has to become a #2D capable of running a top PP, absolute best-case being a Hughes/Hutson level talent, and at minimum a prime Shattenkirk-level talent. At least 2 of Buchelnikov, Danielson, MBN, Lombardi have to become top-6 players. And at least one of Cossa and Augustine has to become a legit NHL Starter. Are all these things impossible? No. Is it unlikely that all of them happen? Maybe. That is the reality for every single rebuild in the NHL. Detroit is no different.

Yet we keep seeing these arguments that all our players are exactly what they are today, as if our guys will never improve in those 2-3 years like every other young promising player in the NHL does. The logical inconsistency is pretty painful to watch.

 

[Bank Shot]

This isn't going to be very productive, so I'll leave it at this. Marco Kasper's 20yo season compares pretty nicely to Sam Bennett's in Calgary. Axel Sandin-Pelikka's production in the SHL and in World Juniors compares quite favorably with Erik Karlsson's. Simon Edvinsson's point totals during this 21yo NHL season are comparable to Victor Hedman's. Are they going to match or exceed these guys? No idea, but to say they have no chance at becoming high quality NHL players is just dumb, IMO.

I never said guys have no chance of being high quality NHLers. I'm just taking about likelihood.

Kasper for example is pretty much the same age as Wyatt Johnston. The chances of him being a better player are pretty low at this point even if it is a theoretical possibility.

When you say to yourself well if so and so prospects hit and become great players, do you extend that same latitude to the other 31 teams in the league?

 

[Stephen]

Just went through the top 10 teams in the NHL and their best defensemen:
Jets: Josh Morrissey
Capitals: Chychrun/Carlson
VGK: Pietrangelo
Stars: Heiskanen or Harley
TML: Rielly
Avs; Makar
Hurricanes: Slavin
Panthers: probably Forsling?

The only guy that was a clearly better offensive players at Seider's age is Makar. Heiskanen put up one season at 70+ and otherwise he's more of a 40-50 guy. All the others: Morrissey, Carlson, Chychrun this year, Rielly, never put up 60+ points until their mid-to-late 20s, ie a defenseman's prime. Guys like Pietrangelo, Slavin, Forsling never put up those points at all. All those teams are contenders.

You do not need an all-situations offensive 1D to thrive; the only teams that even have that player are Colorado and Vancouver. What you need is an overall competent D-corps. Yzerman's issue is not that he has failed to get a 1D. It's that he has a 1D (Seider), a 2/3D (Ed), two 5D (Chiarot/Johansson), and then three 6/7/AHL D (Petry, Gustafsson, Holl). The depth is the issue on Detroit's blue line, not the star power.

Once again people really don't understand the team's problems at all lol.

From an outside perspective, the beginning and end of the Detroit Red Wings problem is the draft and development hasn't panned out the way you need it to. You're not getting the mega upside, the sleeper superstars or the flow volume you need.

Defensive depth on a non playoff team is a superficial, temporary problem. Guys like Chiarot, Holl, Petry are more or less placeholders, but you really need your Wallinder, Sandin-Pellika, Johansson wave to emerge sooner than later to overtake some of them and fill gaps. Then multiply that need by every other position. Not a lot of elite forwards coming up to fill gaps, Cossa not ready. Augustine in net still in college.

Who knows how this will all unfold but from the volume of draft capital that's been expended since 2019 to now, I'd say the weakness is Detroit didn't have the elite level scouting to get the right pieces in the pipeline.

 

[RedHawkDown]

From an outside perspective, the beginning and end of the Detroit Red Wings problem is the draft and development hasn't panned out the way you need it to. You're not getting the mega upside, the sleeper superstars or the flow volume you need.

Defensive depth on a non playoff team is a superficial, temporary problem. Guys like Chiarot, Holl, Petry are more or less placeholders, but you really need your Wallinder, Sandin-Pellika, Johansson wave to emerge sooner than later to overtake some of them and fill gaps. Then multiply that need by every other position. Not a lot of elite forwards coming up to fill gaps, Cossa not ready. Augustine in net still in college.

Yeah, once again, complete lack of understanding of the Detroit Red Wings problem. What you said here (the draft) is actually the only thing that is going well.

FA has been league worst, trades have been near league-worst, pro scouting overall has been league-worst. Drafting is the only reason they are not last in the league by 20 points.

The only difference between the Montreal Canadiens and the Detroit Red Wings is that Montreal's depth is 10x better. The top end pieces are very comparable. Guhle/Edvinsson, Seider/Hutson (though offensively he's obviously much better), and then a forward core of Caufield/Suzuki/Slafkovsky/Laine is fairly comparable to Debrincat/Raymond/Larkin/Kasper.

Dvorak, Anderson, Gallagher, Evans, Struble, are all competent NHL players and the former guys have actually been major contributors to their run down the stretch. Detroit's bottom 6 is among league-worst. In MTL, Carrier is holding his own on the top pair and Guhle is a great complement to Hutson, and the bottom pairing avoids getting caved in nightly.

In Detroit, Chiarot is terrible every night on the top pair, Ed-Johansson do OK, and then the bottom pair gets caved in every single night. Justin Holl is the worst player in the NHL. Steve Yzerman and his front office have managed to sign all of the worst free agents in the league to one team. That's our problem, and that's what has to get way better if we ever want to compete. Not the kids.

 

[Czechboy]

Theres several that you could plug him in with the way hes been playing and not miss a beat.


Only in this thread would a 20 year old , top 8 pick come up, play the way Kasper has offensively and defensively and people complain about him getting called a 50 point second line center.

You take issue with people saying that, when there's others calling him a 3rd line center with second line upside. He's showing a lot more than 2nd line upside right now but its funny how you don't say anything about that. Or people calling him a third line center right now.

As soon as he was moved into the top 6 he's put up a 50 point, 30 goal pace with elite defensive numbers. But ya take issue with people calling the high end prospect more than a 3rd line center with second line upside

I take issue with constantly reading he's a 20 year old 50 point 2C based on 'pace'.

1. he 21
2. he has yet to hit 40 points
3. those aren't 2C numbers on a playoff team, his faceoff percentage is bad
4. you don't need 'pace' when you play a full season.

BUT

I do think he can be a 50 point 2C next season when he turns 22. But I don't need pace arguments... he needs to play all 82 games (not easy), he needs to be consistent at around .6 ppg from start to finish. I think he can do it. But he hasn't done that yet.

 

[Stephen]

Yeah, once again, complete lack of understanding of the Detroit Red Wings problem. What you said here (the draft) is actually the only thing that is going well.

FA has been league worst, trades have been near league-worst, pro scouting overall has been league-worst. Drafting is the only reason they are not last in the league by 20 points.

I honestly don't think the draft is going that well for Detroit. Sheer number of picks accumulated, sheer number of picks used, lotteries lost, potential star power up front and it's all hinging on Lucas Raymond? Got lapped by Ottawa, Montreal caught up. Columbus probably has a better talent pool. Then you look at the Western rebuilds with the star power in waiting on Anaheim, San Jose. I think the mediocrity of the rebuild reflects in the standings.

Your free agent adds are supposed to be the things that support the main thrust of the rebuild. The actual rebuild results have not been there.

 

[RedHawkDown]

I honestly don't think the draft is going that well for Detroit. Sheer number of picks accumulated, sheer number of picks used, lotteries lost, potential star power up front and it's all hinging on Lucas Raymond? Got lapped by Ottawa, Montreal caught up. Columbus probably has a better talent pool. Then you look at the Western rebuilds with the star power in waiting on Anaheim, San Jose. I think the mediocrity of the rebuild reflects in the standings.

Your free agent adds are supposed to be the things that support the main thrust of the rebuild. The actual rebuild results have not been there.

If the mediocrity of the rebuild reflects in the standings, what exactly is happening in Anaheim who has all their top draft picks except Sennecke on the roster and are *checks notes* below Detroit? Or Columbus, who is two points above Detroit?

Are Sennecke and Solberg the difference? If so, why is it that adding those two guys and Luneau will make Anaheim some sort of contender, but Detroit adding ASP/MBN/Danielson/Augustine will do nothing?

Perhaps are you, once again, like everyone else in this thread, assuming that every other team's young guys (McTavish/Carlsson/Mintyukov, or Fantilli/Mateychuk/Johnson, etc) will improve, and ours will stay exactly what they are?

The same people in this thread saying Kasper is a 3C and its unclear if he will ever even be a 2C are likely thinking Carlsson is a lock to be a franchise 1C because of the 2nd of his season this year. So for two guys six months apart in age, we say one guy is on track to be an elite 1C based on his 2nd half play, and the other has tons ot prove and probably / maybe won't even get to 2C status.

It's just constant logical inconsistency based solely on the fact that Detroit's picks weren't top-3.

And by the way - I do think Carlsson will be elite. I just don't see why we have to accept that every other team's young players are going to be awesome, but that ours are all giant question marks?

 

[CokenoPepsi]

2020-21	23	CHI	NHL	RW	52	32	24	56	3	12	22	9	1	7	15	9	0	155	20.6	268	1068:04	20:32	16	24	40.0	22	70	31	43	ASnhl-5,Byng-26
2021-22	24	CHI	NHL	RW	82	41	37	78	-13	19	27	14	0	6	23	14	0	270	15.2	470	1710:13	20:51	24	40	37.5	35	101	67	47	ASG,Byng-64
2022-23	25	OTT	NHL	RW	82	27	39	66	-31	45	16	11	0	6	20	19	0	263	10.3	471	1558:31	19:00	10	9	52.6	38	109	44	39
2023-24	26	DET	NHL	RW	82	27	40	67	1	34	16	11	0	1	32	8	0	237	11.4	482	1467:09	17:54	16	22	42.1	35	66	49	39	ASG
2024-25	27	DET	NHL	RW	79	36	31	67

These are bad seasons? Not to mention he was playing on rebuilding teams the for each of these seasons.

He was playing with prime Kane those Chicago years, there was talk he wanted 9 million+ heading into his contract and then he lost Kane.

 

[RedHawkDown]

He was playing with prime Kane those Chicago years, there was talk he wanted 9 million+ heading into his contract and then he lost Kane.

I think he's doing fine given he's playing two less minutes per game and put up 36 vs 41 goals. 41 might end up being hsi career peak but he's been great for Detroit.

 

[Artaud]

If the mediocrity of the rebuild reflects in the standings, what exactly is happening in Anaheim who has all their top draft picks except Sennecke on the roster and are (checks notes) below Detroit? Or Columbus, who is two points above Detroit?

Are Sennecke and Solberg the difference? If so, why is it that adding those two guys and Luneau will make Anaheim some sort of contender, but Detroit adding ASP/MBN/Danielson/Augustine will do nothing?

Perhaps are you, once again, like everyone else in this thread, assuming that all their young guys (McTavish/Carlsson/Mintyukov etc) will improve, and ours will stay exactly what they are?

The same people in this thread saying Kasper is a 3C and its unclear if he will ever even be a 2C are likely thinking Carlsson is a lock to be a franchise 1C because of the 2nd of his season this year. So for two guys six months apart in age, we say one guy is on track to be an elite 1C based on his 2nd half play, and the other has tons ot prove and probably / maybe won't even get to 2C status.

It's just constant logical inconsistency based solely on the fact that Detroit's picks weren't top-3.

And by the way - I do think Carlsson will be elite. I just don't see why we have to accept that every other team's young players are going to be awesome, but that ours are all giant question marks?

I think having Carlsson is a game game changer. He's exactly what Detroit lacks : elite talent. Anaheim's group is a few years younger than Detroit so naturally people will equate that with more potential. Unlike Detroit, Anaheim has not made moves that signal they are done tanking and trying to compete. So their place in the standings makes sense.

A lot of unbiased people in this thread and elsewhere in the hockey world take a look at the talent (not just production but actual skill displayed) and believe that the young players and prospects in Detroit don't stack up with some other young cores. If people believe Kasper is not an offemsive dynamo in the making like Fantilli or Carlsson, it's because that's what the tape says, not because of some conspiracy against Detroit.

Detroit fans seem unwilling to accept that the rest of the world doesn't view their players as highly as they do.

 

[Stephen]

If the mediocrity of the rebuild reflects in the standings, what exactly is happening in Anaheim who has all their top draft picks except Sennecke on the roster and are *checks notes* below Detroit? Or Columbus, who is two points above Detroit?

Are Sennecke and Solberg the difference? If so, why is it that adding those two guys and Luneau will make Anaheim some sort of contender, but Detroit adding ASP/MBN/Danielson/Augustine will do nothing?

Perhaps are you, once again, like everyone else in this thread, assuming that every other team's young guys (McTavish/Carlsson/Mintyukov, or Fantilli/Mateychuk/Johnson, etc) will improve, and ours will stay exactly what they are?

The same people in this thread saying Kasper is a 3C and its unclear if he will ever even be a 2C are likely thinking Carlsson is a lock to be a franchise 1C because of the 2nd of his season this year. So for two guys six months apart in age, we say one guy is on track to be an elite 1C based on his 2nd half play, and the other has tons ot prove and probably / maybe won't even get to 2C status.

It's just constant logical inconsistency based solely on the fact that Detroit's picks weren't top-3.

And by the way - I do think Carlsson will be elite. I just don't see why we have to accept that every other team's young players are going to be awesome, but that ours are all giant question marks?

Anaheim bottomed out in 2023 and 2024 where they drafted Leo Carlsson and Beckett Sennecke as franchise building blocks 2 and 3 overall and they are currently running 3 points behind Detroit in the standings without the same quantity of veteran free agent adds. They've been terrible for years but look to be climbing at a steeper rate than the Wings.

On the Marco Kaspar piece, I don't think the future success of the Wings hinges on whether he's recognized as a 2C vs a 3C. You need more quality and quantity at the same time.

 

[RedHawkDown]

I think having Carlsson is a game game changer. He's exactly what Detroit lacks : elite talent. Anaheim's group is a few years younger than Detroit so naturally people will equate that with more potential. Unlike Detroit, Anaheim has not made moves that signal they are done tanking and trying to compete. So their place in the standings makes sense.

A lot of unbiased people in this thread and elsewhere in the hockey world take a look at the talent (not just production but actual skill displayed) and believe that the young players and prospects in Detroit don't stack up with some other young cores. If people believe Kasper is not an offemsive dynamo in the making like Fantilli or Carlsson, it's because that's what the tape says, not because of some conspiracy against Detroit.

Detroit fans seem unwilling to accept that the rest of the world doesn't view their players as highly as they do.

I never said once that Kasper is equivalent to Fantilli or Carlsson. But Raymond has absolutely showed the same level of potential and has actually started to reach it vs hypotheticals.

Anaheim hasn’t made moves like Detroit? What was trading for Robby Fabbri, acquiring Ryan strome, vatrano, Trouba if not an attempt to be less shit ?

 

[RedHawkDown]

Anaheim bottomed out in 2023 and 2024 where they drafted Leo Carlsson and Beckett Sennecke as franchise building blocks 2 and 3 overall and they are currently running 3 points behind Detroit in the standings without the same quantity of veteran free agent adds. They've been terrible for years but look to be climbing at a steeper rate than the Wings.

On the Marco Kaspar piece, I don't think the future success of the Wings hinges on whether he's recognized as a 2C vs a 3C. You need more quality and quantity at the same time.

So carlsson with 44 pts in the season and Sennecke in junior is a franchise building block , but all our guys won’t get any better? Lol? How do you not see the clear lack of logic here?

If the entirety of you analysis is based on how high a teams prospects were picked…that’s a bad analysis

 

[Stephen]

So carlsson with 44 pts in the season and Sennecke in junior is a franchise building block , but all our guys won’t get any better? Lol? How do you not see the clear lack of logic here?

If the entirety of you analysis is based on how high a teams prospects were picked…that’s a bad analysis

At the end of the day, if you're happy with your team and your players that's all that matters.

 

[RedHawkDown]

At the end of the day, if you're happy with your team and your players that's all that matters.

I just think people look at draft position and "hype" as opposed to what these players have actually done and the potential they've actually shown. If ASP was taken 9th overall and Danielson 17th, I think these two picks would both be seen as "better". In 2020 people were thinking LA and NYR just got 2 of the future elite forwards in the NHL, 5 years later Raymond is currently the best forward from that draft.

If Leo Carlsson was taken 11th overall, he'd be seen as struggling. But since he was taken 3rd, any hint of elite play is seen as confirmation that he's going to be the franchise-changing talent he was supposed to be when drafted. Whereas since a guy like Kasper was taken 8th overall and not thought to have much offensive potential, all of the offense he does start showing is seen as unlikely to be maintained. It's just not consistent logic and not in keeping with reality, where a player's draft slot is irrelevant once they actually enter the league.

 

[Oneiro]

Detroit has a lot of depth, complementary guys in the system and no keystone forwards.

They're like the Blackhawks waiting for Toews and Kane 20 years ago.

Their FA and trading strategy is very f***ed, however. Genuinely overthinking all of it.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I just think people look at draft position and "hype" as opposed to what these players have actually done and the potential they've actually shown. If ASP was taken 9th overall and Danielson 17th, I think these two picks would both be seen as "better". In 2020 people were thinking LA and NYR just got 2 of the future elite forwards in the NHL, 5 years later Raymond is currently the best forward from that draft.

If Leo Carlsson was taken 11th overall, he'd be seen as struggling. But since he was taken 3rd, any hint of elite play is seen as confirmation that he's going to be the franchise-changing talent he was supposed to be when drafted. Whereas since a guy like Kasper was taken 8th overall and not thought to have much offensive potential, all of the offense he does start showing is seen as unlikely to be maintained. It's just not consistent logic and not in keeping with reality, where a player's draft slot is irrelevant once they actually enter the league.

I think you're just having trouble coping with the fact that the rest of the NHL doesn't view Lucas Raymond being 30th in scoring in his D+5 as indicative of a superstar, that Mo Seider being a low-end Number 1 in his D+6 isn't viewed as trending towards a gamebreaking superstar DMan, that Kasper having 34 NHL points in his D+3 isn't viewed as a stud in the making. There seems to be a lot of confusion, when it becomes people saying questioning if the Wings have the elite high-end talent to be a Cup contender and it turning into a discussion as to whether they will be good players, or not. Entire NHL is filled with good players, it takes a bit more than that. Wings have a enough talent to avoid bottoming out again in the future, but they're also basically in the same position they were in two seasons ago, the Seider/Raymond didn't take a huge leap forward into superstar territory and the later draft picks from those drafts have been underwhelming, then the future drafts have question marks on their upside as well, although "anything can happen" has become the new motto of the Yzerplan.

 

[RedHawkDown]

I think you're just having trouble coping with the fact that the rest of the NHL doesn't view Lucas Raymond being 30th in scoring in his D+5 as indicative of a superstar, that Mo Seider being a low-end Number 1 in his D+6 isn't viewed as trending towards a gamebreaking superstar DMan, that Kasper having 34 NHL points in his D+3 isn't viewed as a stud in the making. There seems to be a lot of confusion, when it becomes people saying questioning if the Wings have the elite high-end talent to be a Cup contender and it turning into a discussion as to whether they will be good players, or not. Entire NHL is filled with good players, it takes a bit more than that. Wings have a enough talent to avoid bottoming out again in the future, but they're also basically in the same position they were in two seasons ago, the Seider/Raymond didn't take a huge leap forward into superstar territory and the later draft picks from those drafts have been underwhelming, then the future drafts have question marks on their upside as well, although "anything can happen" has become the new motto of the Yzerplan.

Sure. You just parroted the same thing without any actual addressing of my points.

Wonder what that means for Stutzle moving forward, scoring lower than Raymond in his D+5, since guys all stop developing at 22/23 according to you.

I'll expect the same logic for every other team moving forward - Suzuki should start declining anytime now since he's in his D+8. Slafkovsky with 49 pts in his D+3 won't get any better. Kent Johnson with 55 pts in his D+4 is what he is at this point. Kirill Marchenko in his D+7 now has likely peaked and won't be putting up a similar season again. Carlsson and Fantilli have another year to show they can be 1C, otherwise they'll be in their D+3 in 2026 and still only putting up 40-50 points and locked into a 2C/#c tweener role for their careers, since we both know players can't improve past that.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Sure. You just parroted the same thing without any actual addressing of my points.

Wonder what that means for Stutzle moving forward, scoring lower than Raymond in his D+5.

See this is you being defensive again. Isn't there a whole thread on here about the Ottawa Senators? Take that there. Ottawa's Number 1 Center is six years younger than Detroit's and they are 11 points better than Detroit this season. They got Brady Tkachuk who is 2.5 years older than Raymond and brings some different elements. Batherson and DeBrincat are roughly same age and comparable. Detroit has Kane, Ottawa has Giroux as old guys that are helping now but at the end of their careers. Sanderson is about a year younger than Seider and better. They have Pinto, Greig, Cozens, Kleven... Detroit has Edvinsson, Kasper. Chabot is a prime-aged Number 2 type DMan under 30, their goaltending for the immediate future is stable.

You can say whatever you want about Ottawa, but you aren't really addressing Detroit's situation. Maybe if Detroit starts hitting on some later picks and stops fumbling the bag with their vet FAs they can get to where Ottawa's at.

 

[RedHawkDown]

See this is you being defensive again. Isn't there a whole thread on here about the Ottawa Senators? Take that there. Ottawa's Number 1 Center is six years younger than Detroit's and they are 11 points better than Detroit this season. They got Brady Tkachuk who is 2.5 years older than Raymond and brings some different elements. Batherson and DeBrincat are roughly same age and comparable. Detroit has Kane, Ottawa has Giroux as old guys that are helping now but at the end of their careers. Sanderson is about a year younger than Seider and better. They have Pinto, Greig, Cozens, Kleven... Detroit has Edvinsson, Kasper. Chabot is a prime-aged Number 2 type DMan under 30, their goaltending for the immediate future is stable.

You can say whatever you want about Ottawa, but you aren't really addressing Detroit's situation. Maybe if Detroit starts hitting on some later picks and stops fumbling the bag with their vet FAs they can get to where Ottawa's at.

I'm not being defensive. You just missed the point yet again. I'm not saying Ottawa is doing poorly or that we're better. I'm actually saying the opposite with regards to Stutzle.

Ottawa's only good prospect is Yakemchuk. If Stutzle has topped out and doesn't improve, they're f***ed and will never compete. I don't think that's the case - I think he has tons of room to improve and become much better, just like Raymond. You are the one saying Raymond's done developing - by that token, so is Stutzle, and that bodes very poorly for Ottawa. and same goes for all the other teams with 22-24 year old players in the NHL.

Also funny you mention "get to where Ottawa's at" after a single season. Detroit finished 10 points ahead of Ottawa last year, and look where we are now. Funny how quickly things can change, and how confidently predicting the future of a young team is a fool's errand, isn't it?

 

[Czechboy]

Sure. You just parroted the same thing without any actual addressing of my points.

Wonder what that means for Stutzle moving forward, scoring lower than Raymond in his D+5, since guys all stop developing at 22/23 according to you.

I'll expect the same logic for every other team moving forward - Suzuki should start declining anytime now since he's in his D+8. Slafkovsky with 49 pts in his D+3 won't get any better. Kent Johnson with 55 pts in his D+4 is what he is at this point. Kirill Marchenko in his D+7 now has likely peaked and won't be putting up a similar season again. Carlsson and Fantilli have another year to show they can be 1C, otherwise they'll be in their D+3 in 2026 and still only putting up 40-50 points and locked into a 2C/#c tweener role for their careers, since we both know players can't improve past that.

Raymond won't be .ppg this year and has yet to do that. Stutzl has. They were drafted same year so their comparison is easy!

Stutzl is leading in GP, G, A, TP, +/- and .ppg.

I definitely agree that both could be 100 point guys or .ppg players in the next several years though.

 

[RedHawkDown]

Raymond won't be .ppg this year and has yet to do that. Stutzl has. They were drafted same year so their comparison is easy!

View attachment 1013038


View attachment 1013040

Stutzl is leading in GP, G, A, TP, +/- and .ppg.

I definitely agree that both could be 100 point guys or .ppg players in the next several years though.

I agree he's shown more potential. But he's trending down and Raymond is trending up. And in either case, the point I'm making is that neither of these guys are done developing and what they are today isn't their top end. if they were, then they're both 75 pt guys moving forward and both the rebuilds aren't going anywhere.

 

[Czechboy]

I think, for me, if all the narratives were true then Detroit is in for a dynasty tbh.

So I will agree with the Yzerplan when the narratives become a reality.

The Wing's will be unstoppable when:

Raymond is a 100 point guy
Larkin is as good as Eichel
Seider is in Norris talks
Asp is a 50 point NHL dman
Cossa and Augustine are above league average in goalie stats
Kasper becomes a 50 point 2C (behind Larkin as a 1C)
Ed just keeps doing what he's doing (big fan)
A Jo can stay in the NHL
Mazur, Buch, MBS and Danielsson all become NHL regulars. Remember, Buch may be just as good as Kucherov - no way of disproving this till he plays a couple 100 NHL games.

That would be an absolute juggernaut! Elite top 3 D. Great 1 and 2C! Elite winger with 100 points. 2 great above average NHL goalies that are young and on ELC's. Amazing support cast from the previous drafts.

And this would not even be an expensive team because built through draft so they'd have cap space to get UFA's to fill in the holes like complimentary winger, PK specialist, solid 3C etc.

I can't wait to see it!