Detroit Redwings Downfall

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Sorry to break the news to everyone, but he's not getting canned. Team showed improvement under McLellan and he'll get a full season next year. Marco Kasper showed he's an NHL scoring line forward and will likely fill the 2C role next season as a 21 year old which will give them a top 3 at center of Larkin, Kasper and Copp. They'll have a top 3 on defense of Seider, Edvinsson and Sandin-Pelikka. There's a good chance Brandsegg-Nygård and Danielson make the team next season to build out depth at forward.

Everyone can say 9 years until they're blue in the face, they're the exact reason Yzerman never said the team would make the playoffs within X years. He said his goal was to build a core that will hopefully have a long window to compete. And he's just about filled all of the core spots through the draft.

Forwards: Raymond, Kasper, Brandsegg-Nygård, Danielson, Berggren, Söderblom, Mazur
Defense: Seider, Edvinsson, Sandin-Pelikka, Albert Johansson
Guys who will get a look in training camp: Lombardi, Wallinder, Buium

That's 14 guys who are 24 and under and are all legit NHL players. Some will make it, some will be moved in trades, the bottom line is the hard work has nearly paid off as Detroit is close to having a core that will be competitive.

So keep saying 9 years, it literally makes no difference.
the core you listed has upside potential for sure but theres two issues

one you are banking on every one of your main prospects to hit, that just doesnt happen

two and in a way i think a bigger issue is that detroits pro scouting has been garbage (if yzerman is listening to someone he needs to be canned, if he is making/involved in the decisions then the process needs to change). Detroit probably could have made the playoffs starting in 2022/2023 but the pro level players they have signed/traded for have in general been garbage. If this was a even a little bit better you end up making the playoffs and dont have to bank on every one of your prospects to hit

like the most recent mrazek move was stupid (unless mrazek is randomly planning on retiring). He wont have a market without retention (which still effects the wings negatively). A duo next season of talbot/mrazek would be so stupid lol. So is the game plan to try and trade talbot (who was above average this year) and then try and upgrade on him. Just seems like a manner of telegraphing the move and that doesnt work. I watched dorion do it for years lol
 
the core you listed has upside potential for sure but theres two issues

one you are banking on every one of your main prospects to hit, that just doesnt happen

two and in a way i think a bigger issue is that detroits pro scouting has been garbage (if yzerman is listening to someone he needs to be canned, if he is making/involved in the decisions then the process needs to change). Detroit probably could have made the playoffs starting in 2022/2023 but the pro level players they have signed/traded for have in general been garbage. If this was a even a little bit better you end up making the playoffs and dont have to bank on every one of your prospects to hit

like the most recent mrazek move was stupid (unless mrazek is randomly planning on retiring). He wont have a market without retention (which still effects the wings negatively). A duo next season of talbot/mrazek would be so stupid lol. So is the game plan to try and trade talbot (who was above average this year) and then try and upgrade on him. Just seems like a manner of telegraphing the move and that doesnt work. I watched dorion do it for years lol
There's no doubt he's made some awful free agent signing, with Justin Holl being exhibit A, but none are going to create any long term cap issues. They've been NHL players who can fill a spot until a prospect is ready. The biggest thing was to not make any long term UFA signings until he knew where his drafting failed and didn't fill holes in the lineup.

All they really need for next season is for Kasper and ASP to hit and they look like they will.

 
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This is what you came up with?.... RENT FREE BAAAA lol. He isn't a solution on a winning team. I am glad he is gone id never invest 8 million into a player like him. The sens have a legitimate number 1 goalie with the assets obtained and are on their way to the playoffs. Because the team is built right, no wasted money on non play drivers that are small perimeter players. The problem is the roster construction in detroit. Not good down the middle. They need another center badly. No number 1 goalie and a D core that hasnt fully developed.

Looking forward to watching playoff hockey this year. Have a good one.
How is a 35 goal scorer not a solution on a winning team? Dude the Senators are a WC team, they haven't run away with the Stanley Cup yet, so the clamoring that they have a roster built right is a bit ridiculous. Roster construction is an issue in Detroit, however the hope is their prospects are going to push into those holes in the near future. Center depth an issue? Insert Kasper, Danielson, and Lombardi (although I think is pushed to the wing in the NHL. No goalie? Insert Cossa and Augustine. D that has not fully developed, insert ASP, perhaps Anton Johansson, Buium, Wallinder. Of course the Wings have holes, they're rebuilding. It's fair to dislike Dcat as a Senators fan. He did not have a great season while with the team, and snubbed them to get out of there. But you continuing to argue he can't be apart of a winning team is foolish at best.
 
So he has had one good season out of his last what 4 or 5? If you wanna go way back before you guys got super defensive and started attacking me I mentioned the things I liked about the team and the stuff I didnt. I don't like giving that type of contract to a player like Debrincat an undersized winger. If it helps you cope with your teams current situation you can go with this false narrative I dont care. It wont change my mindset or philosophy.
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2021-2224CHINHLRW82413778-13192714062314027015.24701710:1320:51244037.5351016747ASG,Byng-64
2022-2325OTTNHLRW82273966-31451611062019026310.34711558:3119:0010952.6381094439
2023-2426DETNHLRW82274067134161101328023711.44821467:0917:54162242.135664939ASG
2024-2527DETNHLRW79363167

These are bad seasons? Not to mention he was playing on rebuilding teams the for each of these seasons.
 
"Yzerman started from scratch" He traded Athanasiou, Hronek, Bertuzzi and Mantha (from the Holland regime) for 3-1sts, 4 2nds +. Holland had also kept all of DRW original picks. It pushed back the time frame of the rebuild but that was SY's choice. People overexaggerate that he started with very little. It may not have been a lot but it wasn't nothing. It created part of this prospect pool that his supporters keep talking up.
The only player from this list doing remotely anything is currently stapled to Q Hughes right hip.
 
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No offense, but you have no idea what the ceiling is for this group. No one does. But Yzerman has done the hard work and has proven in the past he's willing to make deals.
We have some idea.

Seider for example is lagging behind similar aged peers such as Makar, Hughes, Heiskanen. People were talking about him being a Norris guy in his rookie season but it seems unlikely he ever sniffs that trophy.

He's the premier player of the core, but he's not in the same class as some other young guys around the league.

We can compare The Red Wings young NHL core to that of other teams like Montreal, Dallas, Columbus, Buffalo, New Jersey, etc. The Wings don't appear to be ahead of the curve when it comes to young cores.

We can hide behind "anything is possible" until the end of time, but some other teams with young core players look like they are the path to contender status and the Wings aren't one of them IMO.
 
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We have some idea.

Seider for example is lagging behind similar aged peers such as Makar, Hughes, Heiskanen. People were talking about him being a Norris guy in his rookie season but it seems unlikely he ever sniffs that trophy.

He's the premier player of the core, but he's not in the same class as some other young guys around the league.

We can compare The Red Wings young NHL core to that of other teams like Montreal, Dallas, Columbus, Buffalo, New Jersey, etc. The Wings don't appear to be ahead of the curve when it comes to young cores.

We can hide behind "anything is possible" until the end of time, but some other teams with young core players look like they are the path to contender status and the Wings aren't one of them IMO.
Buffalo and Columbus are on the path to contender status? What?

Seider isn't lagging at all. He's not an OFD and never was so he'll never put up the numbers that Hughes/Makar/Hutson etc will. He's easily at Heiskanen's level.
 
Buffalo and Columbus are on the path to contender status? What?
Who said that? I just gave examples of other teams with young cores. The Wings don't stand out in that area at all compared to other NHL teams. Not sure why anyone would be optimistic about their future when they aren't separating themselves from the competition. Besides being a fan of course.

Seider isn't lagging at all. He's not an OFD and never was so he'll never put up the numbers that Hughes/Makar/Hutson etc will. He's easily at Heiskanen's level.
Seider is absolutely lagging behind players like Makar and Hughes. He's not on their level now and it's pretty unlikely he ever will be. Don't agree he's at Heiskanen's level either.
 
Who said that? I just gave examples of other teams with young cores. The Wings don't stand out in that area at all compared to other NHL teams. Not sure why anyone would be optimistic about their future when they aren't separating themselves from the competition. Besides being a fan of course.


Seider is absolutely lagging behind players like Makar and Hughes. He's not on their level now and it's pretty unlikely he ever will be. Don't agree he's at Heiskanen's level either.
Yes, he's not Makar or Hughes, who are the 2 best defensemen in the NHL. He's pretty clearly at the level of the next tier of young defensemen; ie. Sanderson, Heiskanen, Faber, Harley, etc. This isn't really some homer take.

A homer take would be to say that Edvinsson will surpass Seider soon and be among the top guys in that second tier, but that clearly remains to be seen.
 
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Did we ever get a explaining as to why he traded Walman with a top 64 pick for nothing?

Radio silence.

Yzerman needs to be confronted and asked about what was a blatant dereliction of duty with that disaster of a move. Was Walman just a jerk that everyone hated? Did he hate the Griddy because good old Canadian boys shouldn't celebrate goals?

Either way, there needs to be an answer on that.
 
Kasper is not a second line center on the upper half of teams in the league. he may be playing second line for you all right now, but he isn’t over 90% of playoff teams second line center.
Theres several that you could plug him in with the way hes been playing and not miss a beat.

I feel like if it is typed enough that he's a 2C with 50 points that everyone will eventually just believe it.lol

The difference here is glaring though...

Hutson is tied top 5 in NHL d scoring. He not on 'pace' to be a top 5 D scorer. He actually has those points and is in the top 10 in scoring and will surely be a Norris nominee. He's top 60 in scoring overall. He's actually ahead of Hedman right now.

Kasper is 192nd amongst forwards and 230th overall.

The argument isn't that he's a rookie. The argument is that he doesn't have the actual points to be in the conversation.

Pace is not necessary when you play a full season.
Only in this thread would a 20 year old , top 8 pick come up, play the way Kasper has offensively and defensively and people complain about him getting called a 50 point second line center.

You take issue with people saying that, when there's others calling him a 3rd line center with second line upside. He's showing a lot more than 2nd line upside right now but its funny how you don't say anything about that. Or people calling him a third line center right now.

As soon as he was moved into the top 6 he's put up a 50 point, 30 goal pace with elite defensive numbers. But ya take issue with people calling the high end prospect more than a 3rd line center with second line upside
 
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The only player from this list doing remotely anything is currently stapled to Q Hughes right hip.
He legit started with Dylan Larkin as a first line center and Filip Hronek as a top pairing d-man. Neither of them are elite or anything, but they've played those minutes for several seasons. Every other player he's traded has never stuck with another team because none of those teams that acquired those players viewed them as being important pieces.
  • Bertuzzi: Net net traded for Alex DeBrincat who's put up 134 points the past two seasons. Bert is on his third team since the trade and has put up 87 points over this same time frame.
  • Athanasiou: Also on his third team since being traded. How it started: hockey trade for Nick Leddy as Detroit had no defensemen depth when Yzerman arrived. Wings used Leddy for one season, spun him for Walman, and also received a 2nd round pick that turned into Andrew Gibson. How it's going: the Red Wings acquired Jesse Kiisianen when trading Gibson, and the former Nashville prospect, who will turn 20 this summer, projects as a middle 6 forward like Athanasiou but is 10 years younger and is cheap and under team control for a long time. It's funny, with every player Detroit has who's older than 25, the concern trolls tell us the player will be out of his prime when Detroit is competitive, but trade a fringe NHL'er for what ends up being 2 NHL players and a prospect and they are deeply concerned Yzerman is getting nothing from his draft capital.
  • Mantha: resulted in franchise's top goalie prospect in Sebastian Cossa and Dmitri Buchelnikov who's put up 54 points in the KHL this season. Mantha is on his third team since leaving Detroit and will be 31 this summer.

None of these trades are a loss. It's the concern trolls who know nothing about building a core where you only have two legit top of the lineup players and you ended up trading one of them, that are complaining about these trades. I'm embarrassed for them.

Yzerman is being criticized for not turning Anthony Mantha, who has one 20 goal season since 2019-20, Andreas Athanasiou, who has one 20 goal season over the same time frame, into plug and play, top of the lineup guys in their prime. Again, totally embarrassing for them.
 
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There's no doubt he's made some awful free agent signing, with Justin Holl being exhibit A, but none are going to create any long term cap issues. They've been NHL players who can fill a spot until a prospect is ready. The biggest thing was to not make any long term UFA signings until he knew where his drafting failed and didn't fill holes in the lineup.

All they really need for next season is for Kasper and ASP to hit and they look like they will.



I guess that's a glass half full/empty situation. Saying Kasper has been the teams best player for the last 20 games sounds good at first, until you wonder why the teams apparent stars are playing poorly enough to make that possible.
 
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It seems like people have zero room for nuance in here.

Is it a good thing that Kasper has been very good and probably our best player? Yes, it's great for Kasper and bodes very well for his future potential and role on this team.
Does it also mean that Raymond and Larkin and othres really haven't been at their best? Yes, it does. If Kasper was playing better than Raymond at his best, then Kasper would be playing like a top 5-10 player in the NHL, and literally nobody is saying that he's that.

More than one thing can be true at once. Detroit can be bad, but still have very promising youth. The youth can play well, but the team can still suck overall. We can have hope for our future and be very happy with the 1st round picks, but still be upset with Yzerman's FA signings and trades. It's not either or.

Also re: the Walman trade - it was objectively horrible and a massive f***-up. But I think what is repeatedly lost in the noise around that trade is that Yzerman didn't trade our 2nd. He got a 2nd for swapping Gibson with Kiiskinen, and then attached that to Walman.

Don't get me wrong - the Walman trade itself is still terrible. But the overall outcome really depends on what Kiiskinen becomes. Gibson was terrible in the WJC and is trending towards bust territory whereas Kiiskinen just put up a PPG season in Liiga at 19 years of age. There is some potential there. Let's say Kiiskinen, in best case, manages to become a ~40pt decently physical high-energy 3rd liner? Walman and Gibson (AHLer) for Kiiskinen in that case is not really a bad trade.

But obviously the jury is still out, and the Walman + 2nd for nothing part of the trade is still horrible.
 
We can hide behind "anything is possible" until the end of time, but some other teams with young core players look like they are the path to contender status and the Wings aren't one of them IMO.
This isn't going to be very productive, so I'll leave it at this. Marco Kasper's 20yo season compares pretty nicely to Sam Bennett's in Calgary. Axel Sandin-Pelikka's production in the SHL and in World Juniors compares quite favorably with Erik Karlsson's. Simon Edvinsson's point totals during this 21yo NHL season are comparable to Victor Hedman's. Are they going to match or exceed these guys? No idea, but to say they have no chance at becoming high quality NHL players is just dumb, IMO.
 
Theres several that you could plug him in with the way hes been playing and not miss a beat.


Only in this thread would a 20 year old , top 8 pick come up, play the way Kasper has offensively and defensively and people complain about him getting called a 50 point second line center.

You take issue with people saying that, when there's others calling him a 3rd line center with second line upside. He's showing a lot more than 2nd line upside right now but its funny how you don't say anything about that. Or people calling him a third line center right now.

As soon as he was moved into the top 6 he's put up a 50 point, 30 goal pace with elite defensive numbers. But ya take issue with people calling the high end prospect more than a 3rd line center with second line upside
He wasn’t taking faceoffs until the last 17 games of the season.

So yes, teams COULD say he has shown 11 points in his last 17 as a second line center, maybe we can plug him in.

But there is a reason playoff teams are playoff teams - they don’t put themselves in situations to put a young player with 17 games of top 6 center experience in that role.

I’m shocked Detroit fans are so fickle about people saying he has potential and has shown it in small spurts, but there isn’t enough work actually done to say “yes he can plug into several playoff teams top 6”. Maybe he fits in a quarter at most. Maybe
 
Buffalo and Columbus are on the path to contender status? What?

Seider isn't lagging at all. He's not an
OFD and never was so he'll never put up the numbers that Hughes/Makar/Hutson etc will. He's easily at Heiskanen's level.
One problem, poster never said that, poster listed teams with good prospects.
 
One problem, poster never said that, poster listed teams with good prospects.
Hm? The quoted post says:
We can hide behind "anything is possible" until the end of time, but some other teams with young core players look like they are the path to contender status and the Wings aren't one of them IMO.
It was unclear who he means are on "contender status" and who isn't, so I took it to mean the entire list he posted. The only team on that list that's even remotely a contender is Dallas so that's why I called it out.
 
Buffalo and Columbus are on the path to contender status? What?

Seider isn't lagging at all. He's not an OFD and never was so he'll never put up the numbers that Hughes/Makar/Hutson etc will. He's easily at Heiskanen's level.
Imo Seider needs to be partnered with a true #1 D who is offensively gifted. Seider I think is best suited in a defensive role.
Yzerman has collected several good players. But he’s failed to get a #1 D and a #1 C who are the elite star level players that carry teams. To me, the Wings are a lot like the Sabres. Good players but missing a couple key parts. (The Sabres might have a leg up because they have Dahlin)
 
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Yes, he's not Makar or Hughes, who are the 2 best defensemen in the NHL. He's pretty clearly at the level of the next tier of young defensemen; ie. Sanderson, Heiskanen, Faber, Harley, etc. This isn't really some homer take.

A homer take would be to say that Edvinsson will surpass Seider soon and be among the top guys in that second tier, but that clearly remains to be seen.
As much as i like Faber/Sanderson (and Harley has really come one this year), Heskainen is on a different level.
 
Hm? The quoted post says:

It was unclear who he means are on "contender status" and who isn't, so I took it to mean the entire list he posted. The only team on that list that's even remotely a contender is Dallas so that's why I called it out.
Hmm you continently removed this part of the quote.

We can compare The Red Wings young NHL core to that of other teams like Montreal, Dallas, Columbus, Buffalo, New Jersey, etc. The Wings don't appear to be ahead of the curve when it comes to young cores.

The part that compares them to other teams with a good prospect pool. Guess you just read the parts you want.
 
Yes, he's not Makar or Hughes, who are the 2 best defensemen in the NHL. He's pretty clearly at the level of the next tier of young defensemen; ie. Sanderson, Heiskanen, Faber, Harley, etc. This isn't really some homer take.

A homer take would be to say that Edvinsson will surpass Seider soon and be among the top guys in that second tier, but that clearly remains to be seen.
Makar and Hughes are better. Heiskanen has been better by the scoring numbers and underlying numbers. Dahlin just had a phenomenal season that eclipsed anything Seider has done.

So let's say Seider is the 5th best young dman currently.

Lets expand that to all young players. Well, if other teams have 10-15 better young players, and Seider is the best Detroit has, that makes it tough for Detroit to be a contender over the other teams that have better players right?

Detroit has a bunch of maybes, but their core of good, young NHL players is certainly not deep. A team like Dallas that is already a contender has guys like Robertson, Heiskanen, Johnston, Harley, and Oettinger that are all young and better than what Detroit has currently.

Can you understand why a non fan would look at Detroit's roster and be unimpressed? They still have a super long way to go to being on the level of an actual contender like Dallas.
 
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Imo Seider needs to be partnered with a true #1 D who is offensively gifted. Seider I think is best suited in a defensive role.
Yzerman has collected several good players. But he’s failed to get a #1 D and a #1 C who are the elite star level players that carry teams. To me, the Wings are a lot like the Sabres. Good players but missing a couple key parts. (The Sabres might have a leg up because they have Dahlin)
Just went through the top 10 teams in the NHL and their best defensemen:
Jets: Josh Morrissey
Capitals: Chychrun/Carlson
VGK: Pietrangelo
Stars: Heiskanen or Harley
TML: Rielly
Avs; Makar
Hurricanes: Slavin
Panthers: probably Forsling?

The only guy that was a clearly better offensive players at Seider's age is Makar. Heiskanen put up one season at 70+ and otherwise he's more of a 40-50 guy. All the others: Morrissey, Carlson, Chychrun this year, Rielly, never put up 60+ points until their mid-to-late 20s, ie a defenseman's prime. Guys like Pietrangelo, Slavin, Forsling never put up those points at all. All those teams are contenders.

You do not need an all-situations offensive 1D to thrive; the only teams that even have that player are Colorado and Vancouver. What you need is an overall competent D-corps. Yzerman's issue is not that he has failed to get a 1D. It's that he has a 1D (Seider), a 2/3D (Ed), two 5D (Chiarot/Johansson), and then three 6/7/AHL D (Petry, Gustafsson, Holl). The depth is the issue on Detroit's blue line, not the star power.

Once again people really don't understand the team's problems at all lol.
 

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