Detroit Redwings Downfall

[CowbellConray]

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https://dobberhockey.com/2025/01/15/top-50-prospect-goaltenders-winter-2025/

Cossa, the 4th best rated goalie prospect in the world looks meh? Boy if that’s your opinion then the NHL is in for some awfully high scoring games in the future.

His 2019 and 2020 post 1st round picks were not great. The others have been projecting just fine.

Basing your opinion that 2nd+ round picks should already be established NHL players by 21 years old is hilarious, since anyone who actually knows hockey knows these guys need seasoning more than 1st round picks. This isn’t new.

On Cossa from the actual article “don’t give up on Cossa yet”. Again, he hasn’t looked special, but he has traits. So to me , he’s an ok pick at 15th overall.

“2019 and 2020 after the first round were not great”. Great political statement. You mean the SIX SECOND ROUND PICKS HE HAD have turned into nothing of impact from those two drafts? Six. Second. round. Picks. That’s awful and I’m shocked you are too biased to not admit that. This isnt a GM who had a late second and whiffed. He had 6 second rounds picks in 2019 and 2020 and maybe has a bottom 4 dman as a result.

If that’s your opinion “great” drafting, The nhl is going to have some bad players playing because anyone can make it if that’s the quality of talent we evaluate. See how it’s annoying when someone can’t keep a civil conversation about the red wings being a bad team over the past decade?

 

[Boud]

A Vezina winning goalie three years ago. Has he played anywhere near a Vezina level this season?

You could have done much better lol. Hilarious to argue otherwise.

He has a .911 save % which is 10th in the league while dealing with injuries and having a tough start to the season.

The Sens went from having a 32nd place .888 save % last season.

To now having 7th place .908 save % this season.

That’s the difference between making the playoffs and missing the playoffs.

So given where the Sens are this season, it’s foolish to think Ullmark has not made a massive impact. Trading a late 1st, Kastelic and Korpisalo for Ullmark was a undeniable win.

 

[newfy]

“2019 and 2020 after the first round were not great”. Great political statement.

If that’s your opinion “great” drafting, The nhl is going to have some bad players playing because anyone can make it if that’s the quality of talent we evaluate. See how it’s annoying when someone can’t keep a civil conversation about the red wings being a bad team over the past decade?

2020 draft doesnt look great but they got arguably the best player in the draft down at 4th overall.

I disagree on 2019 though. They got a top 2 player in the draft at 6th overall, making a really controversial pick when they did it as well. They have a guy they picked at 60 that looks like hes going to become a top 4 dman and they got what looks to be a top 6 forward in the 6th round at 159 overall.

Shit on 2020 if you want, but the 2019 draft is actually turning out pretty solid.

 

[nbwingsfan]

On Cossa from the actual article “don’t give up on Cossa yet”. Again, he hasn’t looked special, but he has traits. So to me , he’s an ok pick at 15th overall.

“2019 and 2020 after the first round were not great”. Great political statement. You mean the SIX SECOND ROUND PICKS HE HAD have turned into nothing of impact from those two drafts? Six. Second. round. Picks. That’s awful and I’m shocked you are too biased to not admit that. This isnt a GM who had a late second and whiffed. He had 6 second rounds picks in 2019 and 2020 and maybe has a bottom 4 dman as a result.

If that’s your opinion “great” drafting, The nhl is going to have some bad players playing because anyone can make it if that’s the quality of talent we evaluate. See how it’s annoying when someone can’t keep a civil conversation about the red wings being a bad team over the past decade?

Impact players from the ENTIRE 2019 2nd rd…. Maybe Pinto? Does anyone think Hoglander would have actually helped the team in any single way? Some real gems he’s missed on…

Impact players from the ENTIRE 2020 NHL draft…. Peterka, Faber… maybe Lorhei? Wallinder is also going to be on the team next season as well.

You’re acting like multiple NHL stars come out of the 2nd round lol.

Out of 62 picks, there’s been 3 difference makers so far… 3.

Nvm that stated above AJ was picked in the 2nd and spent time on the 2nd pairing, and Soderblom picked in the 6th spent time on the 1st line. Absolute giants like him take time. But apparently you didn’t know that

 

[Pavels Dog]

The opposite is also a problem. If you constantly neglect the short term in favor of the long term, a losing culture can set in, and your young players don't develop properly.

Acquiring and drafting young players and prospects is only half the battle. You still have to develop them. It's really hard to develop young players in a losing culture.

Wings still focus on proper development though. They don't bring up prospects until they're ready and by and large they're put in positions to succeed. Edvinsson and Kasper are two huge silver linings to this season, so as of right now I wouldn't say it's a major concern.

Yzerman’s decision to “build through the draft” is a bit confusing as to why he only tanked once and never got a top 3 pick, then promptly gave up on the tank.

You keep harping on that but with every passing day/month/year it becomes more one-dimensional.
If you draft well, the team improves. Obviously even if they had tanked harder and landed ~Power + ~Slafkovsky/Cooley the team would have also improved beyond the range that Bedard/Celebrini were realistic. And would Power over Edvinsson and Slafkovsky/Cooley over Kasper be enough to solve all their problems? Unlikely, right?
The path towards getting top 3 picks for ~5 straight years is ONLY possible if you keep making the worst picks possible.

They are able to draft NHLers with their 1st rounders but looking at their drafts since 2017, they’ve got nothing from the 2nd round on, other than Joe Veleno who is a 4th liner.

I wouldn't classify Berggren, Söderblom and Johansson as "nothing", especially the latter two look like good pieces for the team going forward.

Just so we're clear, Red Wings fans are happy with Detroit's drafting since 2021 correct?

Yeah I think most of us agree it looks very promising. They're not top 100 picks but I'd add Lombardi and Finnie as prospects progressing really well.

31 picks. 3 impact players.

Can you make a list of all the teams that have more impact players from the same timeframe? Must be a really long list, right?

If you think he is this great drafting GM, how come he gets 1 NHL player a draft while having on average 10 selections each time (and MULTIPLE second round picks in those drafts…)

Dallas Stars got ~0 players in 2014 and 2016. They got 1 (disappointing) player in 2018. Probably 1 from 2020.
Do you think Dallas sucks at drafting?

It takes time for players to develop and no GM nails every pick, every round or every draft. Evaluating a GM, any GM, on select rounds of two specific drafts is not even an attempt at an honest argument.

 

[SirKillalot]

Just so we're clear, Red Wings fans are happy with Detroit's drafting since 2021 correct?

Brandsegg-Nygard, Plante, Becher, Danielson, Sandin-Pellika, Augustine, Gibson, Cleveland, Dower-Nilsson, Kasper, James, Buchelnikov, Edvinsson, Cossa, Buium, Mazur?

That's 6 first round picks, 9 second round picks, 3 third round picks in the Top 100 for the past four years.

You guys and girls are all good with this yeah?

The short answer is YES. If you don't know the players just say so.

The longer answer is:

MBN is coming over after this season. the same with ASP. Both I think is projecting well in SHL so far.
Buchelnikov I would think is coming over after the season which done well in Russia.

Kasper and Edvinsson is already on the team making an impact, but still very young.
Mazur been on the bubble of getting into the team, needs to add weight though, but there is a belief in him.

Danielson developing fine so far in the AHL. Might make the team next season.
Cossa is developing fine so far in the AHL. Probably stay there one more year, still young goalie.
Augustine is developing fine as a goalie prospect as well.

Plante, Becher, Cleveland, Dower-Nilsson and James are all more so of question marks so far when it comes to can they get into an NHL roster on regular basis. They all have some good things about them, but all quirks/warts where do we know yet whether they will get a shot.

Same goes for Buium, Wallinder and Tuomisto

Then you got players like Amadeus Lombardi (who is projecting well and got good backing from the organization so far), Jesse Kiiskinen (who's done well in Liiga and probably comes over next season), Emmitt Finnie (who did great in juniors, and showed a little bit in AHL though small sample size).

There is also Redmond Savage who is doing good so far in his development.
And Elmer Soderblom is in the team right now, from what is seen as a bad 2019 draft from some, its potentially 3 guys making the team. One big guy in Seider and two depth guys in Tuomisto and Soderblom. For me 2020 was a worse draft overall with nepotism pick too.

I can't see how you not can be good with how things are going of the draftees.

Just need to not overripe the forwards and give them the spaces when they do come and see if they sink or swim and some of the defencemen need to take steps. The d-men is the question marks so far, because many are considered interesting prospects, but they need to take steps and elevate themselves up there. Those are the biggest unknowns now together with will the two goalies really make it.

 

[CowbellConray]

Can you make a list of all the teams that have more impact players from the same timeframe? Must be a really long list, right?


Dallas Stars got ~0 players in 2014 and 2016. They got 1 (disappointing) player in 2018. Probably 1 from 2020.
Do you think Dallas sucks at drafting?

It takes time for players to develop and no GM nails every pick, every round or every draft. Evaluating a GM, any GM, on select rounds of two specific drafts is not even an attempt at an honest argument.

Here is a list of teams that have had 5 straight seasons of top 9 picks as well as multiple either 1st or 2nd round picks in every one of those drafts:

Detroit

Here is a list of teams that from 2019-2021 that had over 30 draft picks:

Detroit

Here is a list of teams from 2019-2021 who had 17 top 100 picks or more in those drafts

Detroit

My entire point here is Yzerman was given the reigns to a team that:
1) Had a true top line Center in his early 20s
2) Had cap space and assets galore
3) Had just bottomed out and tons of picks

And he has returned ZERO playoffs in 5 years, 1 season over 85 points, and a relatively middling prospect pool with a few impact players who all were taken in the top 6 picks of drafts. Yet he is this great drafter because he took 3 good first round picks in the top 10 each year. Which, yea if you say "Who else have people picked", my answer is, "No other team has been in that position with so many misses and clearing their team out of EVERYONE of quality to get those picks to then turn them into nothing. Other than the Sabres from 2014-2018, and I'm trying to tell you guys that just drafting 1 impact player per draft isn't enough.

But, because you are trying to prove me wrong, here are drafts by teams in similar situations in the past 10 years, where teams still pulled in impact players and drafted other talent too:
Colorado 2015-2017: Rantanen, Jost, Makar, at least they only had 21 picks ,but still also drafted Greer and Timmins (and their GM can roster build but that's a different conversation).
New Jersey 2019-2021: Hughes, Holtz, Hughes, but then also select Mercer, Shakir (who was dealt for Meier), Daws (decent goalie prospect), and they didnt have nearly as many selections in those same drafts as Detroit (31 to 26 total and 17 to 15 top 100 picks)

Here are teams who drafted well given the 2019-2021 timeframe, and remember, if a team selects later in the first, they dont get the shot at impact players like the team drafting top 6 every time.
Ottawa: Draft Pinto in the second in 2019, Stutzle and Sanderson in 2020 up front, plus Greig, Klevin, and Merilainen later on. They whiffed in 2021, which is funny because if they took any other player around that pick they would have done well given the selection...
L.A.: 2019: Miss on Turcotte and Bjornfoot, but still get Spence. 2020 select Byfield at 2, and then Faber and Laferiere, 2021 select Clarke. That's a pretty decent haul considering they only had 22 selections those years
Ducks: Draft Zegras, Lacombe, Thrun in 2019, Drysdale in 2020 (turns into Cutter), and McTavish and Zellweger in 2021. Again 23 picks compared to 31.
Columbus: Voronkov in 2019, Chinakov in 2020, and Johnson and Sillinger in 2021, while only having 17 picks over three years! And only one top 5 pick (Johnson).

If you said "ignore everything else, do the top 3 players from Detroit look better than the top 3 players from these other situations" I'd say yes, they do. But if you told me draft position, number of other top 100 picks, number of total picks, and then said "oh BTW, Detroit didnt land any other NHL talent with their other 28 picks other than a bottom 4 D in 2019" I'd say "wow, that's bad".

And this is just drafting, the supposed strength of Yzerman and the organization.

To me, Yzerman is a C+ Drafter - he can do well up top in the draft, but hasn't shown any ability to bring in talent after the top 10. So an A for the early first round picks, and a D- for the rest.

Trades - C-. Doesn't add good talent at all, has won trades where it's buy low on a player because you have cap space, or sell high when you are rebuilding. Hasn't really made shrewd deals to bring in a guy who has elevated the team

FA - F. Hands out fat contracts with little ability to build an actual team. Struggles with filling the bottom 6 with talent, can't find a good long term option in goal.

Overall C-/D+. When you have been GM for 5+ years, and you have three players to show for it.... that's a problem

 

[GlassesJacketShirt]

While people are free to choose where to critique the Red Wings, by biggest yellow flag would be attached to their NHL pro scouting department.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

According to whom?

Me. Get over it.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Detroit fans just gotta face the fact that Yzerman is just a polished-looking Dorion.

Great at drafting, awful at trading and roster construction. Consistently handicapping himself and the team with awful players. If Detroit wants to take that next step, they need someone that can actually address roster issues, not just perpetually spin the wheel.

Dorion was great at drafting?

Save for picks 3 and 5 in 2020, Ottawa's drafting was rancid from 2019 - 2023.

 

[SensontheRush]

Dorion was great at drafting?

Save for picks 3 and 5 in 2020, Ottawa's drafting was rancid from 2019 - 2023.

Greig, Kleven, and Merilainen all in that same draft as well. Might be considered one of the best drafts of all time some day.

Pinto, Kastelic in 2019 is not a bad draft either.

But yeh, 2021-2023 was horrid. No top picks and a change in drafting ethos; completely lost his mojo. Still looks like each draft will produce at least one NHLer though.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Yet he is this great drafter because he took 3 good first round picks in the top 10 each year.

You don't have to love every pick, but by and large the guys he selected are doing better than the picks the public might have opted for (Zegras, Eklund, Savoie, Wallstedt).

Is he a great drafter so far? In the 1st round, I think that's fair to say. Later rounds? Needs more time to evaluate.

But, because you are trying to prove me wrong, here are drafts by teams in similar situations in the past 10 years, where teams still pulled in impact players and drafted other talent too:
Colorado 2015-2017: Rantanen, Jost, Makar, at least they only had 21 picks ,but still also drafted Greer and Timmins (and their GM can roster build but that's a different conversation).
New Jersey 2019-2021: Hughes, Holtz, Hughes, but then also select Mercer, Shakir (who was dealt for Meier), Daws (decent goalie prospect), and they didnt have nearly as many selections in those same drafts as Detroit (31 to 26 total and 17 to 15 top 100 picks)

Here are teams who drafted well given the 2019-2021 timeframe, and remember, if a team selects later in the first, they dont get the shot at impact players like the team drafting top 6 every time.
Ottawa: Draft Pinto in the second in 2019, Stutzle and Sanderson in 2020 up front, plus Greig, Klevin, and Merilainen later on. They whiffed in 2021, which is funny because if they took any other player around that pick they would have done well given the selection...
L.A.: 2019: Miss on Turcotte and Bjornfoot, but still get Spence. 2020 select Byfield at 2, and then Faber and Laferiere, 2021 select Clarke. That's a pretty decent haul considering they only had 22 selections those years
Ducks: Draft Zegras, Lacombe, Thrun in 2019, Drysdale in 2020 (turns into Cutter), and McTavish and Zellweger in 2021. Again 23 picks compared to 31.
Columbus: Voronkov in 2019, Chinakov in 2020, and Johnson and Sillinger in 2021, while only having 17 picks over three years! And only one top 5 pick (Johnson).

I don't understand your point here. I'd put Seider, Raymond, Edvinsson and Kasper up against any of those teams hauls and that's not including the depth picks.
Tyson Jost? Alexander Holtz? Nico Daws? Tyler Kleven? Spence? What are we even doing here? Those are the guys you're holding to a higher level than Kasper, Danielson/ASP, Cossa/Augustine, Johansson/Söderblom etc.?

 

[WarriorofTime]

Me. Get over it.

Yep, just what I thought.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Yep, just what I thought.

You'll get over it.

 

[WarriorofTime]

You'll get over it.

Get over what?

 

[CowbellConray]

You don't have to love every pick, but by and large the guys he selected are doing better than the picks the public might have opted for (Zegras, Eklund, Savoie, Wallstedt).

Is he a great drafter so far? In the 1st round, I think that's fair to say. Later rounds? Needs more time to evaluate.

I don't understand your point here. I'd put Seider, Raymond, Edvinsson and Kasper up against any of those teams hauls and that's not including the depth picks.
Tyson Jost? Alexander Holtz? Nico Daws? Tyler Kleven? Spence? What are we even doing here? Those are the guys you're holding to a higher level than Kasper, Danielson/ASP, Cossa/Augustine, Johansson/Söderblom etc.?

I feel like I'm pretty clear in my evaluation. Yzerman is good with top 6 picks, but has shown to be very average at best with the other first round picks and straight up poor with anything past the middle of the first round. How does he get a pass of "needs more time to evaluate" when he had 31 picks in 2019-2021 and of the 28 after the first round has 1 NHLer. 2019 players are in their D+5 years now...

I'm giving Yzerman credit for selecting good players at 4th and 6th overall. But you aren't giving him the criticism he deserves for his other picks in those drafts. As a neutral fan, can you say Yzerman did a good job in 2019/2020/2021 with his picks after the first round? And as I've stressed, he had more selections in that draft than ANY OTHER TEAM IN THE LEAGUE. Yet, his result was very average in totality. Seider is a low end #1, Raymond is an average 1st line winger, and Edvinsson is a top 4 D with potential. That's great, and those are pieces. But he had 31 picks, and he got 3 very solid players.

Colorado, New Jersey, Ottawa had less picks, less top end picks, and still found impact players as well as NHLers in my examples. That was my point. If you draft one good player every draft, that means you need what, 10 drafts to make a team who can compete? Again, this is why I compare them to Buffalo, who drafted top end talent (with top 3 picks, but point still stands) but did nothing with the rest of their selections, and haven't made the playoffs in over a decade.

I'm more confident in Detroit not making the playoffs for another 2-3 seasons then I am them making the jump. They dont have enough talent on the team or in the ranks. Adding 1 young player every year isn't enough. You need more. And Yzerman in his 5 years, hasn't addressed that (not without trying, it's just he can't evaluate team building from what he has shown).

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Get over what?

That Edvinsson is a Top 3 player from 2021.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Yzerman has never made a blunder like the OG Debrincat trade or the Chychrun trade.

Walman, sent him away with a second, then later SJ flipped him for a first.
There are others,

 

[Hockeyfan2390]

Yzerman has never made a blunder like the OG Debrincat trade or the Chychrun trade.

Jake Walman.
Jeff Petry.
Petr Mrazek.

 

[Hockeyfan2390]

I'm more confident in Detroit not making the playoffs for another 2-3 seasons then I am them making the jump. They dont have enough talent on the team or in the ranks. Adding 1 young player every year isn't enough. You need more. And Yzerman in his 5 years, hasn't addressed that (not without trying, it's just he can't evaluate team building from what he has shown).

If that happens, then Yzerman CANNOT be the GM of this team anymore. Hell, he needs to be shown the door if the Red Wings aren't comfortably in a playoff position in March of next season.

 

[CowbellConray]

If that happens, then Yzerman CANNOT be the GM of this team anymore. Hell, he needs to be shown the door if the Red Wings aren't comfortably in a playoff position in March of next season.

Agreed - which is why I think he days are numbered. They had one solid run towards the postseason last year, and that was the lowest points to make the playoffs (91) in the past 10 seasons. Other than that year, they dont have a season above 81 points. If his name wasn't Yzerman, as a GM he would be gone frankly after this year. If Detroit wants to be serious, they need a GM who can actually take some of their talent, add to it, and turn them into a playoff team. I dont think Steve can do that

 

[SirKillalot]

If that happens, then Yzerman CANNOT be the GM of this team anymore. Hell, he needs to be shown the door if the Red Wings aren't comfortably in a playoff position in March of next season.

Agreed - which is why I think he days are numbered. They had one solid run towards the postseason last year, and that was the lowest points to make the playoffs (91) in the past 10 seasons. Other than that year, they dont have a season above 81 points. If his name wasn't Yzerman, as a GM he would be gone frankly after this year. If Detroit wants to be serious, they need a GM who can actually take some of their talent, add to it, and turn them into a playoff team. I dont think Steve can do that

Don't worry huff & puff. Yzerman's job is secure and Yzerplan is going as scheduled. Go troll some other teams. Maybe one or both of the New York ones?

 

[Fatass]

Don't worry huff & puff. Yzerman's job is secure and Yzerplan is going as scheduled. Go troll some other teams. Maybe one or both of the New York ones?

What type of players does Yzerman need to add to his current roster to be a playoff team?

 

[Pavels Dog]

How does he get a pass of "needs more time to evaluate" when he had 31 picks in 2019-2021 and of the 28 after the first round has 1 NHLer. 2019 players are in their D+5 years now...

I consider Johansson and Söderblom NHLers. Mazur would likely be too if he just stays healthy..

We likely have different views of timelines. 4-5 years development for mid-to-late round picks isn't unusual. Nick Jensen made his NHL debut in his d+8 and he's now at 600+ NHL games. That's extreme, but proves the point.

Colorado, New Jersey, Ottawa had less picks, less top end picks, and still found impact players as well as NHLers in my examples. That was my point.

Your examples didn't really show that though?

For New Jersey you listed:
Jack Hughes - #1OA
Alex Holtz - #7OA (trending bust)
Luke Hughes - #4OA
Dawson Mercer - #18OA
Shakhir Mukhamadullin - #20OA (borderline NHLer at best)
Nico Daws - 3rd rounder and borderline NHLer at best

That simply isn't anymore impressive than Detroit's haul. Just isn't. For some reason you've just decided that you're not going to criticize New Jersey for landing zero players outside the 1st round in 2019 (they had another 5 picks in the top 100) and give them credit for legitimately bad/failed picks. You seem unimpressed with Kasper, but bring up Mercer as a good pick who is scoring similar numbers while being several years older. Double-standard much?

 

[Hockeyfan2390]

Don't worry huff & puff. Yzerman's job is secure and Yzerplan is going as scheduled. Go troll some other teams. Maybe one or both of the New York ones?

Going as planned? Zero playoff appearances in six years and zero direction or urgency is the plan? Regression in year 6 was the plan?

Cool story, Yzerbot.