Detroit Redwings Downfall

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Yzerman lucked out on some home run picks. Pure fluke.

Namestknov before Kucherov
Kookoek before Vasi
DeAngelo, Masin, and Macleod before Brayden Point

I say the same thing about Hughes and Hutson. Pure luck he was still there at 62 and obviously they didn't value him higher than Mesar and Beck.

It's not as "easy" or "true" as that. Its also about looking at it from a perspective of who are other teams going to pick. If you with reasonable knowledge know that no teams have a player in their top 2-3 based on their draft position, why would you draft a player earlier if you can get him later? If drafting someone else earlier overall give you in your opinion better opportunities to get regular NHL'ers.
 
The obvious answer is that Ottawa had to sell off a team that was one goal from the finals the year before amongst other players.

Ottawa has traded the best player in their franchise history in the middle of his prime (Karlsson), Olympic level player in Mark Stone, 30 goal scorer Hoffman, 22 year old 6th overall pick Zibanejad, Duchene etc all within a few years period to start off the rebuild. The wings missed playoffs longer after holding onto a streak for a dying owner.

Its not the flex you think it is to be slightly ahead of the wings after years of finishing in the same boat after trading all those assets to start the rebuild. Yzerman started from scratch after Holland traded some very middle of the pack assets. How do Nyquist, Tatar, Steve Ott and Brendan Smith measure up against what Ottawa shipped out in their primes to kick start the rebuild?
just as an aside for the ottawa point, sens were handcuffed by an insane owner so i dont really see it as kickstarting a rebuild vs cost per point (phrase gives me nightmares lol)

karlsson was traded for bodies, a prospect in Norris and a pick. The fact that demelo was good and the pick turned out to be top 3 was an accidental bonus. Then sens traded demelo for a 3rd lol

the mark stone trade yeah...

the hoffman trade lmao dont need to expand

zibanejad trade was just dumb but i dont know if he would have attained the same level of success in ottawa

the duchene trade was fine value but just didnt lead to anything

so isolated yes the sens moved better players, factoring in the insane owner, the cost per point aspect im not sure if thats the strongest point to make

in terms of the wings aspect of all of this just looking at it yzerman seems to be good at drafting (granted successful prospects dont always make good nhlers) but whoever is advising him at the pro level needs to be fired lol. Copp/Compher/Tarasenko/Chariot/Petry/Holl/Mrazek. Thats 30 million on blah or worse talent. I understand the aspect of insulating your players and what not but that doesnt mean spending money on garbage
 
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Yeah, welcome to drafting.
exactly. Yzerman isn't a terrible or a great GM. Just a hockey guy who hasn't found the same luck he had 10-15 years ago in TB.

Not just in the draft...

Sure would be nice if the Wings could luck into some undrafted gems like Tyler Johnson, Marchessault, Gourde or Conacher*

*-and sell off some over inflated worth for a starting goalie like Ben Bishop.
 
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Show me other teams that win anything significant with undersized wingers making 8 million or more. Just doesnt happen. Debrincat finally had a great year, good for him they still missed. He was terrible in Ottawa. He wasnt great last year in Detroit. Its not a philosophy I abide by. Historically its not a recipe for success.
do you understand % of cap
 
So what are you saying then, the wings core is taking longer to develop, as the wings have had more runway.

Just wanted to add one more point here. Ottawa is currently ahead, but it may not be forever, or for very long. After the fantastic haul in '20 draft, the following 3 years look like bare desert at the moment for you guys. The Wings on the other hand have drafted Edvinsson, Kasper, ASP, Danielson, Cossa, Augustine, Buium, Buchelnikov and change in those 3 years. The first two have made the splash this year, the rest could give us enough boost in the next 2-3 years to pass you guys on the curve. Nothing is set in stone, of course, but the chance of us passing you guys is not zero.
 
The amount of this thrown around on RW's social media is so embarrassing.

"Yzerman isn't building a team that makes the playoffs. He's building a team that wins multiple Stanley Cups"

"Yzerman is ONLY building through the draft, so of course the rebuild is going to take closer to 10 years."

When a signing/trade fails: "Who cares, just a placeholder till [ASP/Cossa/Augustine/Danielson/MBN/insert any Yzerman draft pick] is ready for the NHL."

Another fun Red Wings social media narrative is to blame ownership for not letting Yzerman spend....

Last I checked, they went into this season pretty close to the cap and at the trade deadline they added $4M+ in crappy goaltending and will pay Yanni Gourde a few hundred thousand dollars just so they could add an extra 4th round pick...

IIRC, this came from Darren McCarty on a podcast parroting a narrative passed around about the Tigers as blind speculation and some Wings fans just ran with it. In reality, the dude probably just had too many resin tokes from his Dante's Inferno nugs.
 
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Yzerman lucked out on some home run picks. Pure fluke.

Namestknov before Kucherov
Kookoek before Vasi
DeAngelo, Masin, and Macleod before Brayden Point

I say the same thing about Hughes and Hutson. Pure luck he was still there at 62 and obviously they didn't value him higher than Mesar and Beck.

You seem to be new to this drafting thing.

Nobody knows for sure how the player will turn out when they draft them. They look at the upside and also the risks. They also look at what competition they may have for the player they want. Yes, GMs do gamble at the draft table sometimes.

Summary: TB under Yzerman was closer to the correct evaluation of Kucherov's, Vasi's, Point's talents than 30 other teams. Credit is due where credit is due.
 
do you understand % of cap
Yes id never spend 9% on a winger that cant drive a line, especially an undersized one. Traditionally I would spend money on centers and D men if you can. There are a few unique wingers that can drive a line and or play a heavy game that's the only time I would do it.
 
This is what you came up with?.... RENT FREE BAAAA lol. He isn't a solution on a winning team. I am glad he is gone id never invest 8 million into a player like him. The sens have a legitimate number 1 goalie with the assets obtained and are on their way to the playoffs. Because the team is built right, no wasted money on non play drivers that are small perimeter players. The problem is the roster construction in detroit. Not good down the middle. They need another center badly. No number 1 goalie and a D core that hasnt fully developed.

Looking forward to watching playoff hockey this year. Have a good one.
Yes, this is what I come up with because it's ridiculous that you are still talking about DeBrincat. You are clearly still salty about him. Likely has to do with the numerous players that have bolted from the Senators organization over the years because they didn't want to play for Ottawa.

If you really didn't care about him, you would stop talking about him, like most Sens fans have. I'm so sorry he hurt your feelings 2 years ago, now move on.

Also, just for the record, this "non-play driving small perimeter player" would lead the Sens in goals, and would be 2nd on the Sens in points.

Enjoy your 5 playoff games you'll get this year. Your "window to win" is now, because you have no good prospects, meanwhile we have tons. I've admittedly grown impatient with Yzerman, I've been critical of him in this very thread, but at least the prospects look promising.
 
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Yes, this is what I come up with because it's ridiculous that you are still talking about DeBrincat. You are clearly still salty about him. Likely has to do with the numerous players that have bolted from the Senators organization over the years because they didn't want to play for Ottawa.

If you really didn't care about him, you would stop talking about him, like most Sens fans have. I'm so sorry he hurt your feelings 2 years ago, now move on.

Also, just for the record, this "non-play driving small perimeter player" would lead the Sens in goals, and would be 2nd on the Sens in points.

Enjoy your 5 playoff games you'll get this year. Your "window to win" is now, because you have no good prospects, meanwhile we have tons. I've admittedly grown impatient with Yzerman, I've been critical of him in this very thread, but at least the prospects look promising.
You have made up an entire fake narrative in your head. While I have explained myself over and over about team building philosophy in a cap world. I am not bitter I am EXTATIC they have a number 1 goalie with the assets from Debrincat. I literally wrote that in my post.

You went and quoted a post from days ago. I wont change my stance on how I would build a team. I wouldnt spend that much cap on an undersized winger. Now if you want to debate that philosophy show me some examples of how its worked.

The rest of your post is pathetic dude. Sad really. Stutzle, Sanderson, Greig, Kleven, Merilainen are all 22 years old. This is and has always been the start of the sens window... The 2020 draft. Pinto is 24, Cozens is 24, Brady is 25, Batherson is 26, Chabot is 28, Zetterlund is 25 and they have Yakemchuk coming. Ullmark is signed for 4 more years. You're going to have to come to terms with the fact the sens arent going anywhere.

I actually think Detroit is close, once that D core matures and they find a way to get another game breaking forward up front who plays center they are going to be dangerous. Take the emotion out of it, if someone doesn't want to build and commit big cap dollars around a small winger its not a concept coming out of left field.
 
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Yes id never spend 9% on a winger that cant drive a line, especially an undersized one. Traditionally I would spend money on centers and D men if you can. There are a few unique wingers that can drive a line and or play a heavy game that's the only time I would do it.
How about 8%? 7%? Cap is going up you know. Don’t make me dig up quotes of you personally saying that contract would be good value.
He has a chance to hit 40 goals this year and has been a linedriver, saying differently is simply clueless. I was pretty skeptical of bringing him in, I didn’t love him last season, but he’s been exceptional this year and will be a steal if he keeps it up. Sens fans have some weird relationship with Debrincat. It’s like a guy who constantly talks about how he doesn’t miss his ex.
 
How about 8%? 7%? Cap is going up you know. Don’t make me dig up quotes of you personally saying that contract would be good value.
He has a chance to hit 40 goals this year and has been a linedriver, saying differently is simply clueless. I was pretty skeptical of bringing him in, I didn’t love him last season, but he’s been exceptional this year and will be a steal if he keeps it up. Sens fans have some weird relationship with Debrincat. It’s like a guy who constantly talks about how he doesn’t miss his ex.
So he has had one good season out of his last what 4 or 5? If you wanna go way back before you guys got super defensive and started attacking me I mentioned the things I liked about the team and the stuff I didnt. I don't like giving that type of contract to a player like Debrincat an undersized winger. If it helps you cope with your teams current situation you can go with this false narrative I dont care. It wont change my mindset or philosophy.
 
How about 8%? 7%? Cap is going up you know. Don’t make me dig up quotes of you personally saying that contract would be good value.
He has a chance to hit 40 goals this year and has been a linedriver, saying differently is simply clueless. I was pretty skeptical of bringing him in, I didn’t love him last season, but he’s been exceptional this year and will be a steal if he keeps it up. Sens fans have some weird relationship with Debrincat. It’s like a guy who constantly talks about how he doesn’t miss his ex.
If I'm to guess, it was that the two fanbases went at each other like rabid dogs and now most of BOTH fans dislike the other. I remember, it was pretty bad lol. The only time I've ever 'cheered' for Toronto was when they played Detroit.

I'd say, if anything, we're very, very lucky the Debrincat thing turned out the way it did. Bert's right, we really didn't need a little winger and the cap hit would have been a mess for us - plus we got Ullmark from it.
 
So he has had one good season out of his last what 4 or 5? If you wanna go way back before you guys got super defensive and started attacking me I mentioned the things I liked about the team and the stuff I didnt. I don't like giving that type of contract to a player like Debrincat an undersized winger. If it helps you cope with your teams current situation you can go with this false narrative I dont care. It wont change my mindset or philosophy.
50 goal pace
41 goals
27 goals
27 goals
38 goal pace

Yeah real awful stuff. And he’s locked in a whopping 2 more years. Boy, they’ll really struggle to get out of that one if they want to.

I'd say, if anything, we're very, very lucky the Debrincat thing turned out the way it did. Bert's right, we really didn't need a little winger and the cap hit would have been a mess for us - plus we got Ullmark from it.
A trade is allowed to be good for both parties. I also think it’s premature for Sens fans to talk about their team not needing a ~40 goal scorer. You’re in the wildcards, not sitting in a divisional seed about to go for the threepeat.
 
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Just wanted to add one more point here. Ottawa is currently ahead, but it may not be forever, or for very long. After the fantastic haul in '20 draft, the following 3 years look like bare desert at the moment for you guys.
Yes no Sens fan will argue with you, that Dorion set the team back, everyone agrees with that.
but at least the new GM turned one of the first rounders given up into Ullmark, and got rid of 4 years of Korpisalo.
 
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We are upset. We just aren't concluding that the rebuild is doomed and we're all f***ed and there's no point to even having hope anymore.

Go check our forum. The vast majority of us are very, very upset. lol. You people just love dunking on teams that suck and then disappear as soon as there's some success. MTL fans were eating it 2 months ago and Ottawa fans for years and years.
Actually, I’m quite sad about the state of the Red Wings, mind you. Growing up, they were the elite - I loved Zetterberg and Dats, Franzen, etc etc. I’m not happy about where they are as a team or going forward, it’s all very sad. But if others think otherwise, then good for them.
 
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Actually, I’m quite sad about the state of the Red Wings, mind you. Growing up, they were the elite - I loved Zetterberg and Dats, Franzen, etc etc. I’m not happy about where they are as a team or going forward, it’s all very sad. But if others think otherwise, then good for them.
You mention a few of the players who were part of the elite cores of those great Wings’ teams. These are the level of players the current Wings are lacking. These Wings have a lot of good players but lack the elite difference makers in important roles: 1C, 1D, and Power Forward.
 
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The obvious answer is that Ottawa had to sell off a team that was one goal from the finals the year before amongst other players.

Ottawa has traded the best player in their franchise history in the middle of his prime (Karlsson), Olympic level player in Mark Stone, 30 goal scorer Hoffman, 22 year old 6th overall pick Zibanejad, Duchene etc all within a few years period to start off the rebuild. The wings missed playoffs longer after holding onto a streak for a dying owner.

Its not the flex you think it is to be slightly ahead of the wings after years of finishing in the same boat after trading all those assets to start the rebuild. Yzerman started from scratch after Holland traded some very middle of the pack assets. How do Nyquist, Tatar, Steve Ott and Brendan Smith measure up against what Ottawa shipped out in their primes to kick start the rebuild?
"Yzerman started from scratch" He traded Athanasiou, Hronek, Bertuzzi and Mantha (from the Holland regime) for 3-1sts, 4 2nds +. Holland had also kept all of DRW original picks. It pushed back the time frame of the rebuild but that was SY's choice. People overexaggerate that he started with very little. It may not have been a lot but it wasn't nothing. It created part of this prospect pool that his supporters keep talking up.
 
This is why it's going to be critical for Yzerman to clean house with regard to his NA scouting. You cannot suck this badly when drafting from the biggest talent pool on the freaking planet.
Does he have the stones to fire his own brother though? Seems like a messy situation
 
Being a hockey GM in a no-tax state is just damn easier. That’s the big takeaway from the “Yzerplan” v.2.0.
Doesn’t explain the underwhelming draft picks in Rd 2 and later, or even the paucity of quality FA signings and failure to improve the team meaningfully via trade.

Obviously it’s easier to attract FA’s to Cup-caliber teams in warm weather states with lower taxes, but that hasn’t stopped other similarly situated teams from having success in those areas.

I think the Wings can take a big step next year, but it’s clear some changes are needed in the pro scouting dept.
 
So what are you saying then, the wings core is taking longer to develop, as the wings have had more runway.
The Sens had a Karlsson to trade and cash in on. The Wings didn’t have that. The Sens look real different without Sanderson or Stutzle + Norris/Cozens on their team right now.
 
You seem to be new to this drafting thing.

Nobody knows for sure how the player will turn out when they draft them. They look at the upside and also the risks. They also look at what competition they may have for the player they want. Yes, GMs do gamble at the draft table sometimes.

Summary: TB under Yzerman was closer to the correct evaluation of Kucherov's, Vasi's, Point's talents than 30 other teams. Credit is due where credit is due.
Oh man.

So he had some sense of their incredible future value, but was willing to risk it all for *checks notes* Namestnikov?

Yeah, totally.

Also, Al Murray and his other scouts had no part in it. Surely the GM was the major influence on picks after the first round just like on...no teams.

And if we concede that he has this incredible ability to conjure Kucherovs out of nothing, why doesn't he use it for Detroit?
 

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