Detroit Redwings Downfall

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When the Oilers played them earlier this year (end of Jan) they looked like they'd easily make it. Larkin was unreal. What happened?
Larkin has not been the same since the 4 nations, for whatever reason. It is maddening as a Wings fan. They can play with top teams, as evidenced by that game against the Oilers. Although I do remember the Wings holding on for dear life in that third period. They can also completely lose it and play horrible. It's befuddling.
 
Ottawa has graduated most of it's talent to the NHL. There's a reason the Sens are making deadline deals, because that is where they are in their rebuild. I really don't see the need to compare Ottawa and Detroit as far as rebuilds go. They are in completely different stages. If you want to argue Ottawa has the better core in place, fine, that's your prerogative.
Why are they at different stages, wings have missed the playoffs longer.
 
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Not sure your question. I’d reckon DeBrincat is a nice medium term piece to help get the wings to the playoffs. Solid contract, worth the late first they got for Bertuzzi? Probably if they accomplish their goal. I can’t tell from dotter and others if that’s what the wings are trying to do or not given the refusal to give an inch to anything other than Yzerman being perfect.
Why are you focusing on Debrincat though? Do you think the trade brought the Wings to close to mediocrity, rather than tank for picks? I mean the guy essentially fell into their laps. I don't see why it was a bad thing to trade for, and then sign him. He's got 35 goals this season, has a couple 40 goal seasons under his belt. I mean what would you have done instead. The Wings need offense, he provides it. I don't see the problem.
 
Why are they at different stages, wings have missed the playoffs longer.
They are at different stages because of where their core is. The Sens have their core in the NHL already. The Wings do not. The Wings have pieces of their core in, but not the totality.
 
I’m new to this, but shouldn’t Red Wings fans be a bit upset that they haven’t gotten any closer to the playoffs since Yzerman took office?
We are upset. We just aren't concluding that the rebuild is doomed and we're all f***ed and there's no point to even having hope anymore.

Go check our forum. The vast majority of us are very, very upset. lol. You people just love dunking on teams that suck and then disappear as soon as there's some success. MTL fans were eating it 2 months ago and Ottawa fans for years and years.
 
They are at different stages because of where their core is. The Sens have their core in the NHL already. The Wings do not. The Wings have pieces of their core in, but not the totality.
So what are you saying then, the wings core is taking longer to develop, as the wings have had more runway.
 
So what are you saying then, the wings core is taking longer to develop, as the wings have had more runway.
Karlsson trade, Tkachuk in 2018 and two top 5 picks in 2020 sped things up. They’ve also invested heavily to get here by sacrificing futures. Ask Detroit fans if they’d trade Kasper for the chance at a 1st round exit.
 
It's hilarious to me when wings fans use the "Yzerman had nothing" excuse when It's not even true.

Because Yzerman started with Dylan Larkin.

I'm going to ask a question.

Why why Shanny able to do in 2 or 3 years what Yzerman hasn't been able to do in almost 6?

You want to talk about starting with NOTHING?

When Shanny got here there was no Nylander, he hadn't been drafted yet.

There was no Marner

There was no Matthews

There MIGHT have been a Rielly, I don't remember exactly when he broke in I know he was drafted.

But even if there was a Rielly he was FAR from developed.

There sure as hell was no Dylan Larkin to build around like Yzerman had.

Hell there wasn't even a Hyman, Johnsson or Kapanen yet.

There was NOTHING.

So my question is why is it that Yzerman was able to start with more, because he objectively did just by having Dylan Larkin.

And manage to do less with it then Shanny who, say what you want about playoffs, they haven't broken through yet, but they get there every year, they give themselves a shot every year.

They are currently leading the Atlantic whereas Detroit hasn't shown any progress in 9 years and 6 under Yzerman?

Why is that?

Why has Yzerman done less when he objectively started with more?

I suspect I know what the answer will be but It's not that simple.
You previously shit on Larkin as a core piece, now you're comparing him to Matthews. Delusional Leafs fan as usual
 
Why are they at different stages, wings have missed the playoffs longer.

My explanation:

Under Melnyk ownership, Senators would trade their top talent as soon as it got close to the payday. So, while making the playoffs, the Sens really never were very serious about actually competing for the Cup. It became sort of draft-and-trade cycle that eventually blew up, but Sens always were rich in futures because of trading away players in their prime.

The Wings under Holland were the opposite. We kept our best players into retirement, and tried to surround them with talent to prolong playoff appearances. I actually think this is an honorable and respectable path, even if it's not the most shrewd one. What wasn't so great (to put it mildly) was that instead of surrounding our aging heroes with talent, we surrounded them with bad players and declining players on bad contracts. And also drafted poorly and traded away futures in the process.
 
And the whole, 'we don't even want playoff experience if we aren't a great team thing' is either incredibly sad cope, or it's one of the dumbest takes I have ever seen.

The amount of this thrown around on RW's social media is so embarrassing.

"Yzerman isn't building a team that makes the playoffs. He's building a team that wins multiple Stanley Cups"

"Yzerman is ONLY building through the draft, so of course the rebuild is going to take closer to 10 years."

When a signing/trade fails: "Who cares, just a placeholder till [ASP/Cossa/Augustine/Danielson/MBN/insert any Yzerman draft pick] is ready for the NHL."
 
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Red Wings need way more than just old players. They really did not need to sign Holl, Chiarot, Compher and others to those deals. Yzerman isnt a good general manager, and I really do believe he was inflated by his cup runs. The real brains in Tampa came from BB and their ownership.
I always love how anytime someone claims Tampa was built by Yzerman others get all pissy and say well Stamkos and Hedman. But for BB it's dang nice job playa, not oh look what Yzerman left for him.

Yzerman must have killed a bunch of dogs or something for all the hate he gets.
 
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Why are they at different stages, wings have missed the playoffs longer.
The obvious answer is that Ottawa had to sell off a team that was one goal from the finals the year before amongst other players.

Ottawa has traded the best player in their franchise history in the middle of his prime (Karlsson), Olympic level player in Mark Stone, 30 goal scorer Hoffman, 22 year old 6th overall pick Zibanejad, Duchene etc all within a few years period to start off the rebuild. The wings missed playoffs longer after holding onto a streak for a dying owner.

Its not the flex you think it is to be slightly ahead of the wings after years of finishing in the same boat after trading all those assets to start the rebuild. Yzerman started from scratch after Holland traded some very middle of the pack assets. How do Nyquist, Tatar, Steve Ott and Brendan Smith measure up against what Ottawa shipped out in their primes to kick start the rebuild?
 
I always love how anytime someone claims Tampa was built by Yzerman others get all pissy and say well Stamkos and Hedman. But for BB it's dang nice job playa, not oh look what Yzerman left for him.

Yzerman must have killed a bunch of dogs or something for all the hate he gets.
Yzerman lucked out on some home run picks. Pure fluke.

Namestknov before Kucherov
Kookoek before Vasi
DeAngelo, Masin, and Macleod before Brayden Point

I say the same thing about Hughes and Hutson. Pure luck he was still there at 62 and obviously they didn't value him higher than Mesar and Beck.
 
Yzerman lucked out on some home run picks. Pure fluke.

Namestknov before Kucherov
Kookoek before Vasi
DeAngelo, Masin, and Macleod before Brayden Point

I say the same thing about Hughes and Hutson. Pure luck he was still there at 62 and obviously they didn't value him higher than Mesar and Beck.
Yeah, welcome to drafting.
 
I always love how anytime someone claims Tampa was built by Yzerman others get all pissy and say well Stamkos and Hedman. But for BB it's dang nice job playa, not oh look what Yzerman left for him.

Yzerman must have killed a bunch of dogs or something for all the hate he gets.

It's ironic considering his predecessor in Detroit went through the same thing.

I remember some Red Wings fans would give Al Sabotka and the knitting old lady season ticket holder more credit for 2002 and 2008 than they would to Ken Holland.
 
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I have had the opportunity to watch Debrincat plenty. 82 times and 30 + live on Ottawa. I also watch Detroit quite a bit. Raymond drives the play, Larkin drives the play. Debrincat does not. Yes if he was bigger he would be way better. I even said they took Ottawa to the cleaners on the deal. That doesnt change what he is.
Hilarious that DeBrincat is still living rent free in your head. It's been 2 years, it's time to move on buddy.

He could very well finish the year as a top 10 goal scorer in the ENTIRE NHL. DeBrincat has been the best Red Wings forward in the 2nd half of the season. He's been busting his ass every shift and is regularly creating chances. He is the furthest thing from the problem.
 
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So what are you saying then, the wings core is taking longer to develop, as the wings have had more runway.
Well, no, just that Ottawa traded for some core pieces whereas Yzerman is deciding to go drafted players-only. Ottawa's core includes Cozens who was acquired via Karlsson trade, Ullmark who was acquired by trade, and Chabot who they kept instead of trading. That pushes Ottawa's window up.

Tkachuk/Stutzle/Sanderson/Batherson is otherwise fairly similar to Raymond/Larkin/Seider/DeBrincat, though Stutzle is obviously better than Larkin. If the Wings kept Tyler Bertuzzi and Filip Hronek, they're probably in a playoff spot right now, but they decided to kick that can down the road to try and get more foundational pieces.

I'm not saying it's the right move, but the reason for the Wings timeline being pushed back is fairly clear. I personally don't agree and think Yzerman should be pushing hard to move the timeline up while Larkin is still in his prime, but it's not like it's hard to understand.
 
Yzerman lucked out on some home run picks. Pure fluke.

Namestknov before Kucherov
Kookoek before Vasi
DeAngelo, Masin, and Macleod before Brayden Point

I say the same thing about Hughes and Hutson. Pure luck he was still there at 62 and obviously they didn't value him higher than Mesar and Beck.
Uh, this is true of all drafting. You made essentially zero point here.

By definition, all late round picks that turn into elite/great players are primarily luck because if the team knew they'd be that great/elite they would have picked them earlier. Does this mean teams should get zero credit for any player picked past the 1st round? Because that's essentially what you are saying here...
 
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Hilarious that DeBrincat is still living rent free in your head. It's been 2 years, it's time to move on buddy.

He could very well finish the year as a top 10 goal scorer in the ENTIRE NHL. DeBrincat has been the best Red Wings forward in the 2nd half of the season. He's been busting his ass every shift and is regularly creating chances. He is the furthest thing from the problem.
This is what you came up with?.... RENT FREE BAAAA lol. He isn't a solution on a winning team. I am glad he is gone id never invest 8 million into a player like him. The sens have a legitimate number 1 goalie with the assets obtained and are on their way to the playoffs. Because the team is built right, no wasted money on non play drivers that are small perimeter players. The problem is the roster construction in detroit. Not good down the middle. They need another center badly. No number 1 goalie and a D core that hasnt fully developed.

Looking forward to watching playoff hockey this year. Have a good one.
 
This is what you came up with?.... RENT FREE BAAAA lol. He isn't a solution on a winning team. I am glad he is gone id never invest 8 million into a player like him. The sens have a legitimate number 1 goalie with the assets obtained and are on their way to the playoffs. Because the team is built right, no wasted money on non play drivers that are small perimeter players. The problem is the roster construction in detroit. Not good down the middle. They need another center badly. No number 1 goalie and a D core that hasnt fully developed.

Looking forward to watching playoff hockey this year. Have a good one.
Fair enough dude. I'm also glad the Wings didn't draft Stutzle, no use in having undersized C that dive a lot and can't handle playoff intensity or physicality, and whine to the refs all the time instead of focusing on winning.

See how it's insane when someone claims something about your player that might have been true 2-3 years ago but is most definitely not true now? Lol.

DeBrincat is not even remotely a perimeter player at this stage in his career and this year in Detroit. You have zero clue what he is today and you keep repeating this and embarrassing yourself.

I agree the roster construction in Detroit isn't great btw. And I agree we need help down the middle, and not sure if Larkin is the answer at C long-term. Agreed no number 1 goalie, and agree a D core that still needs to develop - Ed needs to take another step and we need ASP to be a difference-maker.

All that being true doesn't change the fact that you are completely, inarguably, dead wrong about DeBrincat.
 
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Fair enough dude. I'm also glad the Wings didn't draft Stutzle, no use in having undersized C that dive a lot and can't handle playoff intensity or physicality, and whine to the refs all the time instead of focusing on winning.

See how it's insane when someone claims something about your player that might have been true 2-3 years ago but is most definitely not true now? Lol.

DeBrincat is not even remotely a perimeter player at this stage in his career and this year in Detroit. You have zero clue what he is today and you keep repeating this and embarrassing yourself.

I agree the roster construction in Detroit isn't great btw. And I agree we need help down the middle, and not sure if Larkin is the answer at C long-term. Agreed no number 1 goalie, and agree a D core that still needs to develop - Ed needs to take another step and we need ASP to be a difference-maker.

All that being true doesn't change the fact that you are completely, inarguably, dead wrong about DeBrincat.
To be fair, I haven't heard that often. Have you?
 
Fair enough dude. I'm also glad the Wings didn't draft Stutzle, no use in having undersized C that dive a lot and can't handle playoff intensity or physicality, and whine to the refs all the time instead of focusing on winning.

See how it's insane when someone claims something about your player that might have been true 2-3 years ago but is most definitely not true now? Lol.

DeBrincat is not even remotely a perimeter player at this stage in his career and this year in Detroit. You have zero clue what he is today and you keep repeating this and embarrassing yourself.

I agree the roster construction in Detroit isn't great btw. And I agree we need help down the middle, and not sure if Larkin is the answer at C long-term. Agreed no number 1 goalie, and agree a D core that still needs to develop - Ed needs to take another step and we need ASP to be a difference-maker.

All that being true doesn't change the fact that you are completely, inarguably, dead wrong about DeBrincat.
Show me other teams that win anything significant with undersized wingers making 8 million or more. Just doesnt happen. Debrincat finally had a great year, good for him they still missed. He was terrible in Ottawa. He wasnt great last year in Detroit. Its not a philosophy I abide by. Historically its not a recipe for success.
 
To be fair, I haven't heard that often. Have you?
It used to be said about Stutzle in his first couple of seasons in the NHL, for sure. He still dives but back then he dove much more. He's matured and also I would say (from what I've seen) has become a much stronger and more physical presence compared to when he came in the league.

Could really say it about any player who's changed their game. Point is DeBrincat has changed his game significantly and is not at all the player bert thinks he is.

As far as other teams that win anything with undersized players:
Tampa won 2 cups with Point (undersized C which is even worse than an undersized W) as a key player
Vegas won a cup with Marchessault as a key player
Pittsburgh won a cup with Guentzel as a key player

8 million today is far different than it was in 17 or 18 ;it's the equivalent of around a 6M contract back then. It's not unreasonable at all.
 

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