Detroit Redwings Downfall

[Czechboy]

Agree with everything you've said. I'm still holding out hope that Yzerman has it in him to make those shrewd moves since he did make them in Tampa (Sergachev trade, McDonagh trade, Conacher --> Bishop --> Cernak trade, identifying and signing Yanni Gourde + Tyler Johnson. Lots of really great moves outside of the draft that built the reputation that we pinned our hopes on as Wings fans that he's yet to do here. Here's hoping lol.

Everything you listed is why I wanted him in Edmonton. He was my first choice on the decade of darkness. Second was Hextall.. but only because I think he hated our old boys club and would have fired all of them. #Firethemalltobesafe was a mantra for Oiler fans for years.lol. So was ofdto.. Oiler fans deserves the Oilers lol.

 

[Bjornar Moxnes]

Everything you listed is why I wanted him in Edmonton. He was my first choice on the decade of darkness. Second was Hextall.. but only because I think he hated our old boys club and would have fired all of them. #Firethemalltobesafe was a mantra for Oiler fans for years.lol. So was ofdto.. Oiler fans deserves the Oilers lol.

He also stole Seider from the Oilers lol. Holland was very high on Seider seeing how he heard a lot of about him from Detroit scouts.

 

[Czechboy]

He also stole Seider from the Oilers lol. Holland was very high on Seider seeing how he heard a lot of about him from Detroit scouts.

I'd kill for Seider.. especially while watching LA kick the shit out of our D.lol

He'd be very high on my dream Oiler list.

Even funnier when you consider we turned Bro (out pick) into a AHL player who was dying to leave because he got his ass over ripened.lol

Undeniable Detroit and Stevie Y victory on that draft day! I also believe that 2 other guys from that 2019 draft are playing for the Wing's now. 2019 was a good one!

 

[theVladiator]

...

All that to say that drafting still isn't the issue. If Yzerman + his pro scouting staff were even semi-competent at evaluating pro talent, we'd be much further ahead. Keep Walman, sign Dylan Strome/Matt Duchene/etc instead of Compher/Copp, offer sheet Holloway? The team is squarely in the playoffs. Detroit's issue, by far, is the complete inability to obtain any significant talent outside of the draft, outside of DeBrincat who essentially forced himself here.

I can absolutely relate to the feelings behind this part, I think one can't help but wish for things. But I am a wary of complaints about the moves that weren't made. I do not think those are rooted in solid logic.

Let's take Duchene. Do we know if he would even want to go to a team that doesn't have a realistic chance to win the Cup in the few years he has left in his career? It takes two to tango, and at this moment Detroit isn't the most desirable destination. We aren't going to be able to grab every UFA we think would help the team.

DeBrincat as far as I know did not force his way to Detroit, but he did force his way out of Ottawa. Detroit was the team that wanted Cat more than others, and so offered more than others.

 

[RedHawkDown]

I can absolutely relate to the feelings behind this part, I think one can't help but wish for things. But I am a wary of complaints about the moves that weren't made. I do not think those are rooted in solid logic.

Let's take Duchene. Do we know if he would even want to go to a team that doesn't have a realistic chance to win the Cup in the few years he has left in his career? It takes two to tango, and at this moment Detroit isn't the most desirable destination. We aren't going to be able to grab every UFA we think would help the team.

DeBrincat as far as I know did not force his way to Detroit, but he did force his way out of Ottawa. Detroit was the team that wanted Cat more than others, and so offered more than others.

Here’s one article talking about how Detroit was what he wanted: Article

Sure Duchene is one example. If your argument is that every single actual good free agent over the last 6 years has had zero interest in signing in Detroit and Yzerman actually tried to get them all, then there’s no discussion to be had. That’s blind faith IMO. Plenty of shitty teams signed FAR better free agents than we did, or made other shrewd moves eg St. Louis.

 

[Dotter]

I agree.. the first rounders are great. I do think he wins redrafts.

Now tell me about rounds 2 to 7 because he's Oiler's level bad at rounds 2 to 7.

Maybe Johanson? is that it?

A good drafter unearths some players in rounds 2 to 7. Kind of like Tampa and all their 2 to 7th rounders who became impact players.

If you get 2 NHL players out of the draft, you did good. If you get 3 NHL players, you did great.

Yzerman got 3 NHL players out of 2019. They are all looking pretty good.

2020, not so much. But also covid down year, only THREE players drafter after the 1st round hit 50 points. That's underwhelming. Yzerman did walk away with one of the best players in the draft though. But yeah, maybe Wallinder hits, but that draft was meh past the 1st round.

Rest of the drafts are too early to tell yet. 2021 looks like it's going to be great. 2022 possibly even better, with 2023 being even deeper than that with ASP, Augustine, Danielsson, Kiiskinen.

I'd get lots of joy if Wings miss the playoffs only to win the lottery. That would be the ultimate troll event that would pour gasoline all over this thread.

Oh, the tears would taste so good. YUM!

 

[theVladiator]

Here’s one article talking about how Detroit was what he wanted: Article

Sure Duchene is one example. If your argument is that every single actual good free agent over the last 6 years has had zero interest in signing in Detroit and Yzerman actually tried to get them all, then there’s no discussion to be had. That’s blind faith IMO. Plenty of shitty teams signed FAR better free agents than we did, or made other shrewd moves eg St. Louis.

On DeBrincat. It very well could be you are right. I have seen DeBrincat quotes about how he was very happy to end up in Detroit. At the same time I see that the article statement that "he wanted to go one place" is actually not supported by anything factual (the quotes from Dorion that are meant to support it seem to be instead complaining that the teams aren't offering Cat serious extension, i.e. teams kicking tires but not being sufficiently serious about an extension).

As for far better UFA signings, I think it's best to talk about this around some sort of a list. Then we can start removing people who went to playoff teams, or where we can guess other personal reasons. I do not think you will be left with many good players, I would be curious to see. Then you have to factor in considerations of whether a player is a fit (I guarantee no GM will be making offers to every good UFA on the market, there are specific goals/targets). I do not expect this exercise will result in any sort of credible case for blaming DRW management, but I am willing to keep an open mind and go thru with this exercise together.

 

[Big Trout]

How Justin Holl got that contract is beyond me

 

[Golden_Jet]

DeBrincat as far as I know did not force his way to Detroit, but he did force his way out of Ottawa. Detroit was the team that wanted Cat more than others, and so offered more than others.

Incorrect, he would only sign a contract with one team, the wings.

 

[Pavels Dog]

After 74 games Detroit has 75 points, after 6 years of rebuilding 0, zero fans should be excited about that but he’ll always have the fans that find every excuse they can

Not sure why it's so triggering that fans are excited about something you are not. The team had more points in the standings last season but I find this season more exciting for the rebuild. I have no idea why that's a problem for you.

This is unbelievable. Yzerman's oldest draft picks are already 24

24 is still extremely young, you realize that right?

Yzerman just hasn't done a lot of that in Detroit, for a guy who's been on the job nearly 7 years. As far as I can tell, the only long-term non-draft piece he's added to this roster is Debrincat. And that was a really good move, but over such a long period you'd expect a little more.

I think that's legitimate criticism. I mean the simple explanation is that the process IS building through the draft, but for sure; adding legitimate long-term pieces through FA/Trade is probably top of the list of what Yzerman needs to get done in the next 1-2 years.

You can say you still believe in the process or whatever without being entirely obdurate and disingenuous.

Goes the other way too.
If people just said "I don't believe in the process" this thread would have lasted 3-4 pages. If people said "there's been some bad, but some good", the thread would have lasted 2 pages. Instead, some people seem to insist that it can only be viewed through a black/white lense.

I'll leave with this. If you had taken one of the Yzerstans in 2019 and said to them, 'in 6 years you will be on a pace to get like 84 points and miss the playoffs' they would have reported you for trolling.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Zero positivity allowed for some reason. Calling people "Yzerstans" for no reason. What a nuanced argument.

The "84 point pace" is legitimately disappointing. But what if you also said that Seider would be a legit #1D? That they'd have the league's leading U24 scorer on the roster? That they'd have a rookie 2C looking great? That they'd be in the playoff fight and still have a top 5 prospect pool? Etc.

 

[The Last Red]

Not sure why it's so triggering that fans are excited about something you are not. The team had more points in the standings last season but I find this season more exciting for the rebuild. I have no idea why that's a problem for you.


24 is still extremely young, you realize that right?


I think that's legitimate criticism. I mean the simple explanation is that the process IS building through the draft, but for sure; adding legitimate long-term pieces through FA/Trade is probably top of the list of what Yzerman needs to get done in the next 1-2 years.


Goes the other way too.
If people just said "I don't believe in the process" this thread would have lasted 3-4 pages. If people said "there's been some bad, but some good", the thread would have lasted 2 pages. Instead, some people seem to insist that it can only be viewed through a black/white lense.


This is exactly what I'm talking about. Zero positivity allowed for some reason. Calling people "Yzerstans" for no reason. What a nuanced argument.

The "84 point pace" is legitimately disappointing. But what if you also said that Seider would be a legit #1D? That they'd have the league's leading U24 scorer on the roster? That they'd have a rookie 2C looking great? That they'd be in the playoff fight and still have a top 5 prospect pool? Etc.

Every team has some good players. He’s been lukewarm at best in Detroit.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Every team has some good players. He’s been lukewarm at best in Detroit.

Ok

 

[nbwingsfan]

The level of Yzerstan in this thread by like the same 5-7 posters is genuinely troubling.

You can say you still believe in the process or whatever without being entirely obdurate and disingenuous.

The narrative around Yzerman in 2019 was that he turned water into wine. That Detroit, despite their lack of recent success, had a leg up on almost every other team because they had landed their genius GM.

Smash cut to 6 years later and they are floundering the same way they would be with any average GM.

So now the argument is, 'he's done an okay job' which is fine. But if you want that point acknowledged you have to concede the point that he hasn't been this incredible God among GMs.

And the whole, 'we don't even want playoff experience if we aren't a great team thing' is either incredibly sad cope, or it's one of the dumbest takes I have ever seen.

I'll leave with this. If you had taken one of the Yzerstans in 2019 and said to them, 'in 6 years you will be on a pace to get like 84 points and miss the playoffs' they would have reported you for trolling.

But here we sit.

I think about 6 years is what every Wings fan had expected. He’s behind schedule, but not by much. There’s still some delusional fans, but seems the cast majority, including myself, are really starting to sour and I think if next season isn’t the playoffs you’re going to see a ton wanting him fired.

This off season is going to be a really important one. If it’s more plug and play horrible UFA signings then he’s gotta go

 

[nbwingsfan]

Sure, it could definitely be better, and I've commented on our poor 2nd round drafting elsewhere on this site. But there are very few teams in the NHL that have overall obtained more talent from the draft from 2019-present (please name them if you have any in mind). The first round drafting hasn't just been good, its' been lights out - there are zero misses from 2019-2022 (23 and 24 TBD) and every one of those players looks so far to go 2-5 in a redraft. That is very, very good top end drafting.

Plus there's guys like Buchelnikov, Augustine, Lombardi and Plante that are trending very well from the recent 2nd rounds so we'll see if the poor later round drafting holds.

All that to say that drafting still isn't the issue. If Yzerman + his pro scouting staff were even semi-competent at evaluating pro talent, we'd be much further ahead. Keep Walman, sign Dylan Strome/Matt Duchene/etc instead of Compher/Copp, offer sheet Holloway? The team is squarely in the playoffs. Detroit's issue, by far, is the complete inability to obtain any significant talent outside of the draft, outside of DeBrincat who essentially forced himself here.

The entire NA scouting department, but pro and amateur, needs gone asap

 

[theVladiator]

Incorrect, he would only sign a contract with one team, the wings.

As I explained elsewhere, that's just one possible interpretation of the facts on the record, but it's not the only one. I could be missing some info here, so links to additional facts are very welcome.

 

[KAWAIlllI]

I’m new to this, but shouldn’t Red Wings fans be a bit upset that they haven’t gotten any closer to the playoffs since Yzerman took office?

 

[Golden_Jet]

I’m new to this, but shouldn’t Red Wings fans be a bit upset that they haven’t gotten any closer to the playoffs since Yzerman took office?

Hey first post, welcome to the forums.
I’m not touching that question.

 

[Czechboy]

Nice win over Florida... it's not impossible. Montreal has the wins advantage (first tiebreaker I think). So they'd have to go 5-1 to Montreals 3 and 3? Who knows?

 

[Dotter]

View attachment 1007794

Nice win over Florida... it's not impossible. Montreal has the wins advantage (first tiebreaker I think). So they'd have to go 5-1 to Montreals 3 and 3? Who knows?

It's very unlikely they make it. It's also not the end of the world like many here would like to make you think.

I do know Tuesday will be like game 7 of the ECF between DET and MTL. Detroit will be the more desperate team. MTL the hotter team.

 

[newfy]

View attachment 1007794

Nice win over Florida... it's not impossible. Montreal has the wins advantage (first tiebreaker I think). So they'd have to go 5-1 to Montreals 3 and 3? Who knows?

I read somewhere that if they go 5-1 they have a 70 percent chance to make the playoffs. I imagine that number is extremely dependent on if that 1 loss is against the habs, which is who they play next though.

The first tie breaker is regulation wins, which they both have 28 of right now. Rangers have 32 for the record

 

[VivaLasVegas]

I read somewhere that if they go 5-1 they have a 70 percent chance to make the playoffs. I imagine that number is extremely dependent on if that 1 loss is against the habs, which is who they play next though.

The first tie breaker is regulation wins, which they both have 28 of right now. Rangers have 32 for the record

The Fat Lady is aleady singing "Don't Fear The Reaper" for Detroit.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I’m new to this, but shouldn’t Red Wings fans be a bit upset that they haven’t gotten any closer to the playoffs since Yzerman took office?

This will be the first year they haven’t improved their point total year over year. It is also the first time Stevie is really starting to get heat locally. Had he moved quicker on Lalonde they are probably in a better position right now and that is on Yzerman in a big way.

 

[Washed Up 29YearOld]

the funniest post by far is the guy calling people "vaccine deniers" if they don't think the Wings are contenders.

 

[cvaicunas]

So when I say our previous GM and owner were morons I guess you don’t understand. After the worst ownership, GM, coaching combo in Sens history we have one year of a decent owner, GM and coach and are ahead of the wings somehow. Looking at wings talent in AHL it’s league average as best. At least Sens have excuse of a crazy cheap owner and GM and coaches who are assistants at best during FYOUS. But the yzerplan is somehow worse than the monstrosity that is Ottawa which deserves a round of applause.

Most of the Wing's talent in GR has made the move to the NHL this season. Now they're high end prospects are sitting in the SHL, KHL, and college. Ottawa has graduated most of it's talent to the NHL. There's a reason the Sens are making deadline deals, because that is where they are in their rebuild. I really don't see the need to compare Ottawa and Detroit as far as rebuilds go. They are in completely different stages. If you want to argue Ottawa has the better core in place, fine, that's your prerogative. This is the first season the Wings' have truly had a youth movement. Ed, Al Jo, Kasper, Soderblom, Mazur(if he had not been injured). Next season I am hopeful for more of the same. Mazur full time, ASP? Perhaps Danielson, Buchelnikov, Cossa. Where the Wings stand, and the viability of this core, is going to be fairly evident in the coming two seasons. Wether that is great, good, middling, or poor; time will tell.

 

[Osakahaus]

Red Wings need way more than just old players. They really did not need to sign Holl, Chiarot, Compher and others to those deals. Yzerman isnt a good general manager, and I really do believe he was inflated by his cup runs. The real brains in Tampa came from BB and their ownership.