Detroit Redwings Downfall

[saska sault]

Two straight years where a playoff spot is on the line with other bubble teams floundering and two straight years where DET has floundered the most.

Two straight years they lost a single center and the team started to spiral. Last year Larkin, this year Copp... Hopefully next year with a healthy team, some reinforcement via trade or free agency and maybe Danielson at some point and the team will have the depth to handle the loss if and when it happens again. The top guys on Detroit are fine, maybe they are not top guys on a contender but when your depth guys are Motte, Fischer, Watson, Shine, Rasmussen, Veleno, Smith... add in Compher and Tarasenko are basically warm bodies this season.. they dont have the horses yet. I was disappointed when Yzerman did not add at the TDL but clearly he knew the team was not ready for a push, yet.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Two straight years they lost a single center and the team started to spiral. Last year Larkin, this year Copp... Hopefully next year with a healthy team, some reinforcement via trade or free agency and maybe Danielson at some point and the team will have the depth to handle the loss if and when it happens again. The top guys on Detroit are fine, maybe they are not top guys on a contender but when your depth guys are Motte, Fischer, Watson, Shine, Rasmussen, Veleno, Smith and Compher and Tarasenko are basically warm bodies.. they dont have the horses yet. I was disappointed when Yzerman did not add at the TDL but clearly he knew the team was not ready for a push, yet.

Boston: trending towards starting a rebuild
Pittsburgh: same
Rangers: due for yet another rebuild
Toronto: not trending very well despite having elite, very expensive talent
Tampa: aging core, top defenders are in their mid 30s
Florida: most of their core is hitting or past 30
Carolina: decent chunk of core is at or past 30

There are other teams further along in their rebuild - New Jersey in particular - but Detroit is following a similar path to Carolina a few years back when the Canes would just miss out on the playoffs before finally breaking through. The core is just about in place, with Kasper and ASP adding much needed depth.

 

[Juha]

Two straight years where a playoff spot is on the line with other bubble teams floundering and two straight years where DET has floundered the most.

Correction. This is the third straight year.

 

[qcal1427]

Two straight years they lost a single center and the team started to spiral. Last year Larkin, this year Copp... Hopefully next year with a healthy team, some reinforcement via trade or free agency and maybe Danielson at some point and the team will have the depth to handle the loss if and when it happens again. The top guys on Detroit are fine, maybe they are not top guys on a contender but when your depth guys are Motte, Fischer, Watson, Shine, Rasmussen, Veleno, Smith... add in Compher and Tarasenko are basically warm bodies this season.. they dont have the horses yet. I was disappointed when Yzerman did not add at the TDL but clearly he knew the team was not ready for a push, yet.

Yes I maintain that Yzerman's biggest issue is not his grand strategy but his specific pro scouting. Issue wasn't that they signed a bunch of vets, it's that they signed a bunch that suck

 

[Dotter]

I have had the opportunity to watch Debrincat plenty. 82 times and 30 + live on Ottawa. I also watch Detroit quite a bit. Raymond drives the play, Larkin drives the play. Debrincat does not. Yes if he was bigger he would be way better. I even said they took Ottawa to the cleaners on the deal. That doesnt change what he is.

*If true, then you would know that Debrincat plays with Kane... not Raymond.

 

[saska sault]

Yes I maintain that Yzerman's biggest issue is not his grand strategy but his specific pro scouting. Issue wasn't that they signed a bunch of vets, it's that they signed a bunch that suck

Pro scouting has been an issue without a doubt, if prospects start to take over for some of his "big signings" in the next year or so, then it may become less of an issue. The 3rd and 4th line guys should all easily be replaceable by next season. I am hoping this is the last year they ice guys that don't have a chance to even contribute on offense. For as hard as some of the guys work, you know that the depth guys have an almost zero chance of contributing on offense. You are basically hoping those lines don't get scored on and break even in the plus/minus.

Hopefully with those guys gone and with a youthful influx, the Copp, Compher and Rasmussen's can be moved up and down the line up to end up being the new Mottes and Smiths. The salary cap situation doesn't look too bad even if you have those guys occupying your bottom 6 if its offset by Kasper, Danielson, Mazur, Buch playing further up on ELCs. Thankfully after next year a lot of dead weight is gone off the back end, and the same can be said for that side of the ice if a prospect earns his way up or ASP is ready.

The fact you still have Holl, Gus, Tarasenko and such isn't ideal but maybe we get lucky and some are gone through a combination of buyouts/pressbox/trade/ltir/GR. The Yzerplan is a very slow & steady build up of the roster. Sooner or later he will need to start swinging for the fences via trade & free agency, maybe this off season... also not surprised if its the following year. As a fan I want it to be now but I would rather him stick to his plan rather than feel pressure and start pushing before the team is ready for it.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Yes I maintain that Yzerman's biggest issue is not his grand strategy but his specific pro scouting. Issue wasn't that they signed a bunch of vets, it's that they signed a bunch that suck

I have plenty of issues with his NA scouts, but he's also trying to sign NHL caliber vets as placeholders until the guys he's drafted are ready to rock. So he's not in the market for the quality UFAs who are going to want 6+ years and $30+ million.

2024 Free Agent D-men
Pesce: 6 years, $33m
Zadorov: 6 years, $30m
Roy: 6 years, $34.5m

2022 Free Agent Centers
Most signed for 7-8 years and many stayed with their current club.
Kadri signed for 7 years
Giroud wasn't going to be a good fit for a team going through a rebuild as he entered his mid 30s
Trocheck signed for 7 years

The AAV is fine, it's the term that's a no-go. I would have liked to see them go after Chychrun, but it's clear he's found a home in Washington. And signing Holl made absolutely no sense, but it will have no impact on their cap structure.

 

[Golden_Jet]

*If true, then you would know that Debrincat plays with Kane... not Raymond.

Poster knows that, don’t see where he said they play on the same line. Just saw DBC drives play and Larkin does not. That doesn’t mean they are on the same line.

 

[qcal1427]

I have plenty of issues with his NA scouts, but he's also trying to sign NHL caliber vets as placeholders until the guys he's drafted are ready to rock. So he's not in the market for the quality UFAs who are going to want 6+ years and $30+ million.

2024 Free Agent D-men
Pesce: 6 years, $33m
Zadorov: 6 years, $30m
Roy: 6 years, $34.5m

2022 Free Agent Centers
Most signed for 7-8 years and many stayed with their current club.
Kadri signed for 7 years
Giroud wasn't going to be a good fit for a team going through a rebuild as he entered his mid 30s
Trocheck signed for 7 years

It's not about getting guys at the top of the market, it's about getting guys at the middle and bottom that are actually good. Chiarot, Petry, Holl, and Gustaffson are all at best 3rd pairing guys and were signed for not insignificant money and term. Copp and Compher are fine but they also got term. Tarasenko at 4.75x2 is a pretty big investment and that was clearly awful from the second he signed. The one initially good pro-scouting move they did make in Walman he almost immediately bungled.

There have been guys available in the price/age range they want that they've passed on that are actually good.

The AAV is fine, it's the term that's a no-go. I would have liked to see them go after Chychrun, but it's clear he's found a home in Washington. And signing Holl made absolutely no sense, but it will have no impact on their cap structure.

The problem isn't cap structure, it's that they are for the most part bad players that have actively hurt the team when they're on the ice.

 

[Run the Jewels]

It's not about getting guys at the top of the market, it's about getting guys at the middle and bottom that are actually good. Chiarot, Petry, Holl, and Gustaffson are all at best 3rd pairing guys and were signed for not insignificant money and term. Copp and Compher are fine but they also got term. Tarasenko at 4.75x2 is a pretty big investment and that was clearly awful from the second he signed. The one initially good pro-scouting move they did make in Walman he almost immediately bungled.

There have been guys available in the price/age range they want that they've passed on that are actually good.

The problem isn't cap structure, it's that they are for the most part bad players that have actively hurt the team when they're on the ice.

Yeah, I'm not interested in defending any of the d-men signings. I think Copp and Compher make sense given how young Kasper and Danielson are and the fact they are Detroit's best prospects at center. Rasmussen and Veleno were theoretically middle 6 centers but we all know how that turned out.

 

[VivaLasVegas]

The problem isn't cap structure, it's that they are for the most part bad players that have actively hurt the team when they're on the ice.

Yzerman thus rebuilt to the standard of latent mediocrity.

(Note: You don't really need a rebuild to get there.)

 

[Boud]

It's not about getting guys at the top of the market, it's about getting guys at the middle and bottom that are actually good. Chiarot, Petry, Holl, and Gustaffson are all at best 3rd pairing guys and were signed for not insignificant money and term. Copp and Compher are fine but they also got term. Tarasenko at 4.75x2 is a pretty big investment and that was clearly awful from the second he signed. The one initially good pro-scouting move they did make in Walman he almost immediately bungled.

There have been guys available in the price/age range they want that they've passed on that are actually good.

The problem isn't cap structure, it's that they are for the most part bad players that have actively hurt the team when they're on the ice.

Couldn’t agree more. I keep seeing this argument thrown out there that they just “signed guys to fill spots”. The Wings are not the Chicago Blackhawks. They’re trying to win now, and last season they nearly made the playoffs. Clearly the plan was to be competitive at this stage.

With the money they spent on Chiarot, Holl, Copp, Compher, Tarasenko they could’ve added really high quality players at the middle of the market that would have made a difference between them missing the playoffs or making them for a 2nd straight year. Not only that but they could’ve kept Walman who was at the time of the trade a better player than all of the Red Wings vets on D ( or at least they should’ve replaced him adequately)….

Stevy Y made some bets and they haven’t paid off. I don’t know that the issue is that he signed players that didn’t give him a good return on investment. I think the biggest issue here is that Yzerman thought bringing in those players would put them in a playoff spot … and that’s more worrying that the players themselves not performing. Your GM is targetting the wrong players and that’s a problem.

 

[theVladiator]

I have plenty of issues with his NA scouts, but he's also trying to sign NHL caliber vets as placeholders until the guys he's drafted are ready to rock.

I agree, but I would not call depth guys placeholders. It undervalues what they bring to the team. They may not be top shelf offensive talent, but they are pretty solid meat-and-potatoes players. Gotta have those.

Could Yzerman have signed a higher end C? Hard to tell. It could be that he is wary of long term deals, and rightfully so. But those guys also have freedom to choose their destination. Giroux I think clearly wanted to finish his career in his hometown (although he is a wing at this stage of his career). I am guessing same is true for Pesce. Playoffs is a factor for many, I am sure, so the Wings is not an attractive destination at this point either. Because of that complaining "why didn't he sign X?" is just stupid.

I think we agree that in terms of team operation a couple of things are in need of improvement: pro scouting (at least where D is concerned), and NA amateur scouting.

 

[Run the Jewels]

I agree, but I would not call depth guys placeholders. It undervalues what they bring to the team. They may not be top shelf offensive talent, but they are pretty solid meat-and-potatoes players. Gotta have those.

Could Yzerman have signed a higher end C? Hard to tell. It could be that he is wary of long term deals, and rightfully so. But those guys also have freedom to choose their destination. Giroux I think clearly wanted to finish his career in his hometown (although he is a wing at this stage of his career). I am guessing same is true for Pesce. Playoffs is a factor for many, I am sure, so the Wings is not an attractive destination at this point either. Because of that complaining "why didn't he sign X?" is just stupid.

I think we agree that in terms of team operation a couple of things are in need of improvement: pro scouting (at least where D is concerned), and NA amateur scouting.

Marco Kasper's 20yo season looks a lot like Sam Bennett's. If you can slot Kasper in as your 2C going forward and move Copp down to 3C next season that gives them depth down the middle they haven't had since Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Not suggesting any of these guys are that caliber, but 3 rock solid 2-way centers who are getting matchups where they can thrive would put them in the best shape they've been in since Holland cratered the franchise.

Then you can see what Nate Danielson brings to the big club, hopefully replacing Copp at a bare minimum as your 3C and then you can slot Copp down to the 4C role in 2-3 years on a club friendly deal.

 

[Dotter]

Couldn’t agree more. I keep seeing this argument thrown out there that they just “signed guys to fill spots”. The Wings are not the Chicago Blackhawks. They’re trying to win now, and last season they nearly made the playoffs. Clearly the plan was to be competitive at this stage.

This comment is out of touch and goes completely against everything Yzerman has been verbally preaching in almost every single interview he's done.

I have no idea where you got this from! But it's so far out of touch, it should be on the moon.... or better yet, Mars!

Look, Wings are in their "playoffs" now. Each game matters and they are learning to play in highly pressure situations. They are playing by far the roughest schedule of any team in the NHL. This is a growth experience for the core of the team.

At the end of the day, drafting 15th is better than 18th, 46th is better than 49th etc... I would argue those three slots will make more of an impact for their future than getting knocked around for 4 games in the post-season.. when;

A) they are already playing competitive playoff style hockey;
B) learning how to be clutch. (referring to Raymond last season... and last nights game Raymond and Kasper were clutch - and Edvinsson has been no slouch).

As a DRWs fan this is fun hockey to watch. Losing sucks, but watching the kids prosper before our eyes is nothing short of spectacular. Kasper is already exceeding expectations where we thought his "prime" would be. The dude is an absolute BEAST. If someone told me at the start of the season that Simon Edvinsson could surpass Seider as the future #1 on the team, I would have laughed in their face!

Cossa came in and played a game and he already looks like he could be our best goalie right NOW. He was lights out in his small sample size. AJ, where did this kid come from? I thought we had another "Marchenko" on our hands, but this kid is a legit top 4 on a good team dman. He's getting better each game, just a awe-inspiring watching him grow. Like he wasn't expected to be anything more than a depth dman, yet here we are! He's our "Walman" replacement; less offense, but offers way better defense.

At the start of the season, DRWs fans were arguing Soderblom was a bust... but this dude just hit the "excel" button and has turned into a monster. He's a full time NHL roster player and Wings look much, much better when he's in the lineup (as noticed in the past few games when he's been out injured). Dude has been scoring points at almost a .5 clip. Not bad for a guy we thought was never going to make the NHL a few months ago.

Best thing Yzerman did was fire Lalonde. He was holding the kids development back. Had he been fired sooner, Wings make the playoffs this season. I honestly think Yzerman does NOT want them making the playoffs just yet. I think he is dangling a carrot, but at the end of the day, I think he wants better draft picks. That's my thought process. There's no question Wings are still in the thick of a rebuild!

 

[Golden_Jet]

This comment is out of touch and goes completely against everything Yzerman has been verbally preaching in almost every single interview he's done.

I have no idea where you got this from! But it's so far out of touch, it should be on the moon.... or better yet, Mars!

Look, Wings are in their "playoffs" now. Each game matters and they are learning to play in highly pressure situations. They are playing by far the roughest schedule of any team in the NHL. This is a growth experience for the core of the team.

At the end of the day, drafting 15th is better than 18th, 46th is better than 49th etc... I would argue those three slots will make more of an impact for their future than getting knocked around for 4 games in the post-season.. when;

A) they are already playing competitive playoff style hockey;
B) learning how to be clutch. (referring to Raymond last season... and last nights game Raymond and Kasper were clutch - and Edvinsson has been no slouch).

As a DRWs fan this is fun hockey to watch. Losing sucks, but watching the kids prosper before our eyes is nothing short of spectacular. Kasper is already exceeding expectations where we thought his "prime" would be. The dude is an absolute BEAST. If someone told me at the start of the season that Simon Edvinsson could surpass Seider as the future #1 on the team, I would have laughed in their face!

Cossa came in and played a game and he already looks like he could be our best goalie right NOW. He was lights out in his small sample size. AJ, where did this kid come from? I thought we had another "Marchenko" on our hands, but this kid is a legit top 4 on a good team dman. He's getting better each game, just a awe-inspiring watching him grow. Like he wasn't expected to be anything more than a depth dman, yet here we are! He's our "Walman" replacement; less offense, but offers way better defense.

At the start of the season, DRWs fans were arguing Soderblom was a bust... but this dude just hit the "excel" button and has turned into a monster. He's a full time NHL roster player and Wings look much, much better when he's in the lineup (as noticed in the past few games when he's been out injured). Dude has been scoring points at almost a .5 clip. Not bad for a guy we thought was never going to make the NHL a few months ago.

Best thing Yzerman did was fire Lalonde. He was holding the kids development back. Had he been fired sooner, Wings make the playoffs this season. I honestly think Yzerman does NOT want them making the playoffs just yet. I think he is dangling a carrot, but at the end of the day, I think he wants better draft picks. That's my thought process. There's no question Wings are still in the thick of a rebuild!

Picking 3 spots differently, isn’t as valuable as gaining playoff experience for the kids.

 

[Dotter]

Picking 3 spots differently, isn’t as valuable as gaining playoff experience for the kids.

I'd agree with you if they weren't already in their "playoffs". Each game is a playoff game for them. Same thing as last season down the stretch when Raymond went full-on BEAST mode the last handful of games.

This team isn't built for the playoffs yet. Picking 3 spots (or whatever it will be this season) is more valuable than getting their asses kicked in 4 straight. It's only profitable for the owner. That's the only upside. I doubt Chris Ilitch gives two shits. I think he wants Yzerman to build a perennial cup contender. Making the playoffs for a cash grab does nothing for the future of the club.

 

[Frobbo]

This comment is out of touch and goes completely against everything Yzerman has been verbally preaching in almost every single interview he's done.

I have no idea where you got this from! But it's so far out of touch, it should be on the moon.... or better yet, Mars!

Look, Wings are in their "playoffs" now. Each game matters and they are learning to play in highly pressure situations. They are playing by far the roughest schedule of any team in the NHL. This is a growth experience for the core of the team.

At the end of the day, drafting 15th is better than 18th, 46th is better than 49th etc... I would argue those three slots will make more of an impact for their future than getting knocked around for 4 games in the post-season.. when;

A) they are already playing competitive playoff style hockey;
B) learning how to be clutch. (referring to Raymond last season... and last nights game Raymond and Kasper were clutch - and Edvinsson has been no slouch).

As a DRWs fan this is fun hockey to watch. Losing sucks, but watching the kids prosper before our eyes is nothing short of spectacular. Kasper is already exceeding expectations where we thought his "prime" would be. The dude is an absolute BEAST. If someone told me at the start of the season that Simon Edvinsson could surpass Seider as the future #1 on the team, I would have laughed in their face!

Cossa came in and played a game and he already looks like he could be our best goalie right NOW. He was lights out in his small sample size. AJ, where did this kid come from? I thought we had another "Marchenko" on our hands, but this kid is a legit top 4 on a good team dman. He's getting better each game, just a awe-inspiring watching him grow. Like he wasn't expected to be anything more than a depth dman, yet here we are! He's our "Walman" replacement; less offense, but offers way better defense.

At the start of the season, DRWs fans were arguing Soderblom was a bust... but this dude just hit the "excel" button and has turned into a monster. He's a full time NHL roster player and Wings look much, much better when he's in the lineup (as noticed in the past few games when he's been out injured). Dude has been scoring points at almost a .5 clip. Not bad for a guy we thought was never going to make the NHL a few months ago.

Best thing Yzerman did was fire Lalonde. He was holding the kids development back. Had he been fired sooner, Wings make the playoffs this season. I honestly think Yzerman does NOT want them making the playoffs just yet. I think he is dangling a carrot, but at the end of the day, I think he wants better draft picks. That's my thought process. There's no question Wings are still in the thick of a rebuild!

"fun to watch", "prospering", "beast", "lights out", "awe-inspiring", "excel" and "monster". Wow, all this on a team that can't win a turtle race for the last playoff spot. You need a job on the Chamber of Commerce somewhere.

 

[TruePowerSlave]

I'd agree with you if they weren't already in their "playoffs". Each game is a playoff game for them. Same thing as last season down the stretch when Raymond went full-on BEAST mode the last handful of games.

This team isn't built for the playoffs yet. Picking 3 spots (or whatever it will be this season) is more valuable than getting their asses kicked in 4 straight. It's only profitable for the owner. That's the only upside. I doubt Chris Ilitch gives two shits. I think he wants Yzerman to build a perennial cup contender. Making the playoffs for a cash grab does nothing for the future of the club.

I would have to disagree. It's still different to play in the actual playoffs than only have meaningful late regular season games. Some teams that the Wings face down the stretch don't really even care that much about the results, like the contenders who already have their place locked down in the standings.

 

[Czechboy]

Picking 3 spots differently, isn’t as valuable as gaining playoff experience for the kids.

Playoff experience is absolutely meaningless. It is better to pick 15th and not make playoffs then pick 18th and play because the only option is to make playoffs and get swept 4 straight. Most the first round playoff matchups are sweeps afterall.

The key is to make the playoffs and win it the first time. From non playoff team to cup winner.. then a dynasty to follow that. This is the plan! It's about 3 years away! All us doubters are going to be eating a lot of shit from 2029 to 2034 when Detroit wins 4 in a row. All the pieces are already here:

Cossa and Augustine as vezina nominees

Asp, Seider and Erd all Norris nominees

Kasper will be the 1C
Raymond will be the 1W and a 100 point player
30 year old Larken will be the 2C and in Selke talks

The rest of the first rounders taken from 2019 to 2028 will fill in all remaining spots. Buch is the next Kucherov because, today, you cannot prove he isn't! Larkin is as good as Eichel and Kasper is better than both.

All that is left is to wait. Once the 'filler' guys like Holl and Petry are gone, Yzerman will sign some really good UFA's to fill in the rest of the roster.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Playoff experience is absolutely meaningless. It is better to pick 15th and not make playoffs then pick 18th and play because the only option is to make playoffs and get swept 4 straight. Most the first round playoff matchups are sweeps afterall.

The key is to make the playoffs and win it the first time. From non playoff team to cup winner.. then a dynasty to follow that. This is the plan! It's about 3 years away! All us doubters are going to be eating a lot of shit from 2029 to 2034 when Detroit wins 4 in a row. All the pieces are already here:

Cossa and Augustine as vezina nominees

Asp, Seider and Erd all Norris nominees

Kasper will be the 1C
Raymond will be the 1W and a 100 point player
30 year old Larken will be the 2C and in Selke talks

The rest of the first rounders taken from 2019 to 2028 will fill in all remaining spots. Buch is the next Kucherov because, today, you cannot prove he isn't! Larkin is as good as Eichel and Kasper is better than both.

All that is left is to wait. Once the 'filler' guys like Holl and Petry are gone, Yzerman will sign some really good UFA's to fill in the rest of the roster.

Nice job on the hyperbole.

 

[pvr]

The autopsy on the Detroit Red Wings organization continues…a stone’s throw away from 3500 posts. Is there even close to a similar thread for any other organization, including the Leafs?

Seems like a lot of people are enjoying the difficulties.

 

[TKB]

The autopsy on the Detroit Red Wings organization continues…a stone’s throw away from 3500 posts. Is there even close to a similar thread for any other organization, including the Leafs?

Seems like a lot of people are enjoying the difficulties.

I would pay cash money to get a breakdown of the number of posts by user.

YDS

 

[Sens With Benefits]

Playoff experience is absolutely meaningless. It is better to pick 15th and not make playoffs then pick 18th and play because the only option is to make playoffs and get swept 4 straight. Most the first round playoff matchups are sweeps afterall.

The key is to make the playoffs and win it the first time. From non playoff team to cup winner.. then a dynasty to follow that. This is the plan! It's about 3 years away! All us doubters are going to be eating a lot of shit from 2029 to 2034 when Detroit wins 4 in a row. All the pieces are already here:

Cossa and Augustine as vezina nominees

Asp, Seider and Erd all Norris nominees

Kasper will be the 1C
Raymond will be the 1W and a 100 point player
30 year old Larken will be the 2C and in Selke talks

The rest of the first rounders taken from 2019 to 2028 will fill in all remaining spots. Buch is the next Kucherov because, today, you cannot prove he isn't! Larkin is as good as Eichel and Kasper is better than both.

All that is left is to wait. Once the 'filler' guys like Holl and Petry are gone, Yzerman will sign some really good UFA's to fill in the rest of the roster.

There’s been two sweeps in round one the last three years. That’s like 8 percent. If you’re in the dance who knows what will happen.

 

[Czechboy]

There’s been two sweeps in round one the last three years. That’s like 8 percent. If you’re in the dance who knows what will happen.

Impossible.. it has been explained repeatedly and daily that there is no point in making playoffs only to be swept. Sweep or not making it are the only two options. Not making the playoffs and picking 2 spots higher in the mid teens is better.