Detroit Redwings Downfall

[Hockeyfan2390]

I haven’t liked almost a single thing Yzerman has done the past 12 months, but this idea of “we haven’t made the post season just to get shredded in the 1st round” therefore the whole rebuild is bad” is just weird thinking.

Would it be nice to be in the playoffs? Sure

Would I have liked Yzerman to make moves at the last two deadline to help us get there? Yup.

Again, it’s literal hockey 101. Detroit’s young core players need to experience playoff hockey to learn what it takes to succeed - even if they get knocked out early the first few times. You know, just like Yzerman learned early in his career. 1997 wasn’t his first playoff experience.

And like I said before, this isn’t the 2016 Wings of when there was literally no point in a playoff spot other than to extend the stupid streak.

Would it be better to be patient and build a team who can actually challenge for the cup? Yes

Again, we’re waiting on why Detroit’s prospects other than ASP and Cossa will have effect.

We’ve been patient enough. It’s almost year 7 of Yzerman and year 10 (literally the longest in team history) of no playoffs.

Yzerman MUST make a major offseason splash, or his job needs to be in danger. This endless runway and “just wait for the kids” (aka pure hopium) needs to stop.

Fans are right to start expecting a return on their emotional and financial investments.

Do we need to be in the wildcard spot right now to become contenders? No.

Who said anything about contending this year?

Again, Yzerman’s plan absolutely cannot be to try and be a solid playoff team only when they’re Cup ready. That’s the literal opposite of how you prepare and teach your core players of what it takes to win beyond the regular season.

 

[Hockeyfan2390]

There is 11 teams getting scored on more than Detroit. Must be a lot of AHL players in the NHL at the moment.

“Well there are other teams getting torched so it’s okay if Detroit is 23rd overall in goals against!”

Come on. You didn’t seriously just write that.

 

[bert]

Not really, you just don't understand the premise of how today's NHL works, what premise he took the job on and what premise the ownership agreed when he took the job. You might not like that approach, but that approach has been taken and it doesn't fit your narrative or perception of reality.

He has gotten in some veterans who got them back to where they were supposed to be before. He hasn't elevated them to something they haven't been yet. Yes at the moment they are 11th in goals against. So they done better.

So, similar to Yzerman but had a lot better starting point where he didn't have to use years to first ship players out, draft talent and develop them. He got in charge when they had a lot of pieces in place.

So when Ottawa does this strategy its okay, but when Detroit does, its not. Got it.
Fact is these teams are similar, now Ottawa is in a position Detroit was last year, lets see if they hold on or improve to go even higher this year. I agree with your argument, its just that its the same Detroit has.

Ottawa has better players more unique players in more important positions. Your rebuttal said nothing in regards to the points I made. You made it about Detroit. Which yes the thread title is about but that specific conversation wasn't about them. They just aren't built as well as Ottawa. They're not as good a team right now. But you're talking like they are... It's strange.

 

[SirKillalot]

Doesn't that defeat the narrative that the cupboard when he came on board was barren? Isn't where they are at (in a good way) partly due to KH? The oft repeated story is that it was completely a wasteland in Detroit. SY had and used some Holland assets to get where he is today instead of starting from zero the way so many supporters here claim.

No, because the cupboard wasn't really there and he got much better return than what was expected. Pretty much everyone said those returns were a much bigger hall than expected.
Remember a team has 23 players not 3.

Before Holland left, he got in 2017
One 2nd round pick and three 3rds for Tomas Jurco, Brendan Smith and Thomas Vanek

In 2018
So and so return for Petr Mrazek with a conditional 3rd and 4th going back
Then a good return for Tomas Tatar when he got back a 1st, 2nd and 3rd.

In which all picks beside a 3rd where used prior to Yzerman coming back.
Which the 3rd was used for Nedeljkovic.

In 2019
For Nick Jensen got a 2nd round pick
For Gustav Nyquist got a 2nd and conditional 3rd round pick

In which only the 2nd wasn't used before Yzerman coming back. Which was used to draft Cross Hanas later on.

Yzerman takes over!

In 2020
Andreas Athanasiou traded away for 2nd, 2nd and Sam Gagner
Got a 2nd for taking on Marc Staal which all in all had a good stint with Detroit

In 2021
Anthony Mantha traded away for 1st, 2nd, Jakub Vrana and Richard Panik
Yzerman also used a 2nd and some 3rds to get Nick Leddy, Alex Nedeljkovic and Mitchell Stevens.

In 2022
Nick Leddy and Luke Witkowski traded away for a 2nd, Jake Walman and Oskar Sundqvist

In 2023
Filip Hronek traded away for a 1st and 2nd.
Tyler Bertuzzi traded away for a 1st and 4th.
Traded 1st, 4th, Dominik Kubalik and Donovan Sebrango for Alex DeBrincat

In 2024
Shipped Jake Walman and a 2nd for Mr. Future Considerations
Traded Andrew Gibson (prospect) for Jesse Kiiskinen and a 2nd
Olli Maatta for a 3rd

Now for the Mantha 1st, Detroit traded that plus two lower picks to trade up and select Sebastian Cossa
For the Hronek 1st, Detroit drafted Axel Sandin-Pellikka.
For the Bertuzzi 1st, Detroit traded that to Ottawa who in turn traded it to Boston who drafted Dean Letourneau (who has 3 points in 34 games in the NCAA this year)

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

You're still reaching with your whole "this is what a prospect pool should look like" spiel. Detroit may not have landed a Matthews caliber player, but beyond that they've acquired far more depth and talent at every position than Toronto did coming out of their rebuild. It's like you're living in a parallel world where Toronto hasn't failed to make any noise whatsoever in the playoffs specifically because they've lacked talent at defense/goalie and depth up front.

When did I say anything about Toronto being great in the playoffs?

What I said is that is what a prospect pool is supposed to look like when you draft near the top of the draft every year.

You should have 2 or 3 elite prospects not 1.

 

[SirKillalot]

“Well there are other teams getting torched so it’s okay if Detroit is 23rd overall in goals against!”

Come on. You didn’t seriously just write that.

You are saying they are icing an AHL defense and its 11 teams playing worse defense than them. Is it mine or your argument that doesn't make any sense? Maybe you are just incorrect.

Ottawa has better players more unique players in more important positions. Your rebuttal said nothing in regards to the points I made. You made it about Detroit. Which yes the thread title is about but that specific conversation wasn't about them. They just aren't built as well as Ottawa. They're not as good a team right now. But you're talking like they are... It's strange.

They have better players and more unique players in more important positions?
I think they have one more long term top six forward, possibly one more middle six forward long term.
They have one more long term-man and one better complimentary d-man.
So in that sense, yes I agree they have better defense and a more secured plan with their d-core than Detroit at the moment. Are they good enough to take them to contender status? Idk.

But, we aren't talking about whether they should end up being a top wild card team, Ottawa also has a goal of getting up there as a top 3 division team and top 3-4 conference team to become a good playoff contender. Now they did the Norris for Cozens trade, Cozens started quite well, let's see if he becomes that piece long term for them. I think they still need good bit more to elevate themselves up there, question is what will that be.

At the moment they are losing to Buffalo.

 

[Hockeyfan2390]

You are saying they are icing an AHL defense and its 11 teams playing worse defense than them. Is it mine or your argument that doesn't make any sense? Maybe you are just incorrect.

Did you consider that perhaps both could be true?

Some of the teams below them are Buffalo (arguably the worst-run franchise in sports), San Jose (worst team in the NHL), Chicago (2nd worst in the West), Philly (nowhere near the playoffs), and Boston (all but officially out of the playoffs and set to start a painful rebuild).

None of that excuses Detroit from being in the bottom 1/3 of the NHL in goals against in year 6 of Steve Yzerman’s tenure.

 

[SirKillalot]

Did you consider that perhaps both could be true?

No I didn't consider that 37.5% of the NHL is supposedly playing an AHL calibre line-up on defence.
Its just simple overexaggerating fan behaviour.

 

[TKB]

, handed Larkin an 8-year extension as a franchise player.

"Handed."

Are you suggesting Dylan Larkin didn't deserve an 8 year deal or that his contractl is bad?

 

[WarriorofTime]

"Handed."

Are you suggesting Dylan Larkin didn't deserve an 8 year deal or that his contractl is bad?

No, I'm suggesting that Steve Yzerman extended Dylan Larkin as part of a concerted effort to compete throughout the remainder of his prime. I'm not sure how you inferred that I implied that Dylan Larkin didn't deserve a big NHL contract throughout his UFA years unless some kneejerk defensiveness somehow got activated.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Again, it’s literal hockey 101. Detroit’s young core players need to experience playoff hockey to learn what it takes to succeed - even if they get knocked out early the first few times. You know, just like Yzerman learned early in his career. 1997 wasn’t his first playoff experience.

And like I said before, this isn’t the 2016 Wings of when there was literally no point in a playoff spot other than to extend the stupid streak.


Again, we’re waiting on why Detroit’s prospects other than ASP and Cossa will have effect.

We’ve been patient enough. It’s almost year 7 of Yzerman and year 10 (literally the longest in team history) of no playoffs.

Yzerman MUST make a major offseason splash, or his job needs to be in danger. This endless runway and “just wait for the kids” (aka pure hopium) needs to stop.

Fans are right to start expecting a return on their emotional and financial investments.


Who said anything about contending this year?

Again, Yzerman’s plan absolutely cannot be to try and be a solid playoff team only when they’re Cup ready. That’s the literal opposite of how you prepare and teach your core players of what it takes to win beyond the regular season.

The point was being in the post season right NOW really has zero barring on them being cup contenders in 3 years or whatever.

It would be nice for sure, but really has no relevance on the future

 

[SirKillalot]

The point was being in the post season right NOW really has zero barring on them being cup contenders in 3 years or whatever.

It would be nice for sure, but really has no relevance on the future

Shhh, don't use logic and try and taking away from him that its super important to get swept 4-0 by a far better team so you learn they are much better than you...

 

[RedWingzz]

Lucas Raymond went from underrated and underpaid to overrated and overpaid in 1 month

He's flat out quit on the year and disappeared

 

[Ncit3]

The Wings just look atrocious. I get they played last night and that the Avs are a good team. But man it just continues to be a disaster for Yzerman and the Wings. How much longer will he get to “fix” this team?

 

[TKB]

No, I'm suggesting that Steve Yzerman extended Dylan Larkin as part of a concerted effort to compete throughout the remainder of his prime. I'm not sure how you inferred that I implied that Dylan Larkin didn't deserve a big NHL contract throughout his UFA years unless some kneejerk defensiveness somehow got activated.

The reality is Detroit had already been rebuilding for a few years prior to Yzerman taking the job. Everything he's done has been consistent with that as he largely let the "Holland era" picks run out their natural course (the older Svechnikov, Cholowski, Smith, Hronek, Rasmussen, Lindstrom, Zadina, Veleno, Berggren, etc.) pulled the team out of a tank with some of his spending/posturing, handed Larkin an 8-year extension as a franchise player. As much as people present it like the Red Wings pressed a hard reset button on April 19, 2019 on the day Steve Yzerman was hired and started everything from scratch at that point, this is not what happened. They would have likely been better off today if they had done so (of the aforementioned list of prospects, Hronek who is a very good player was the only one that returned them anything while Rasmussen and Berggren are on the roster now), but it was generally more of a continuation, he did after all work under Ken Holland from 2006-07 to 2009-10. Wings rebuild has been both slow and also not that tanky as they only had a bottom three finish one time in the entire 8 straight missed playoff stretch. It's a bit of an odd combo. The hard justifications of "the kids need to learn how to compete" is of course contradicted with "but we don't want to JUST make the playoffs" so what, they just finish in 23rd place instead?

Okay so tell us who did he inherit that he should have done significantly better with than he did?

Somehow I doubt you spend as much time posting about the Blackhawks letting Dylan Stome walk for nothing, as you do trolling Red Wing threads because Steve Yzerman triggers you for some odd reason.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Okay so tell us who did he inherit that he should have done significantly better with than he did?

Somehow I doubt you spend as much time posting about the Blackhawks letting Dylan Stome walk for nothing, as you do trolling Red Wing threads because Steve Yzerman triggers you for some odd reason.

There you go again diverting the topic to something irrelevant because your feelings got hurt that something negative was implied about your boyhood hero or whatever it is going on. Please reply to the post if you have something to say about it. I have no idea which points you are asking for clarification on.

 

[Hockeyfan2390]

The point was being in the post season right NOW really has zero barring on them being cup contenders in 3 years or whatever.

It would be nice for sure, but really has no relevance on the future

Except it completely does. The Red Wings will not be Cup contenders until they learn how to play in the playoffs.

 

[Hockeyfan2390]

Shhh, don't use logic and try and taking away from him that its super important to get swept 4-0 by a far better team so you learn they are much better than you...

You’re completely missing the point. Again.

Please, don’t attempt to seriously discuss hockey if you actually think there’s no point in Detroit’s young core players gaining valuable postseason experience.

 

[Hockeyfan2390]

The Wings just look atrocious. I get they played last night and that the Avs are a good team. But man it just continues to be a disaster for Yzerman and the Wings. How much longer will he get to “fix” this team?

The Red Wings could still be without a single playoff appearance under Yzerman in 2029.

The usual suspects will still be bleating “Trust the Yzerplan, look at what he had to clean up from Ken Holland, don’t try and pretend like you know more than him, just wait a few more years until the kids get fully acclimated to the NHL”, and their other never-ending excuses.

 

[The Last Red]

Yzerman may have had limited options in free agency. Detroit isn’t the easiest sell right now:

• Still rebuilding
• Lacking star power
• No tax advantages
• Unclear playoff future

He may have wanted bigger or better signings—but the reality may be, better players didn’t want to come, or wanted too much $$. So he had to settle for who would sign under his terms.

Also . . . it’s Detroit. Sure it has some nice suburbs but so does every city.

 

[Ncit3]

Also . . . it’s Detroit. Sure it has some nice suburbs but so does every city.

Detroit has actually done quite well in rebuilding and rebranding a lot of their city. It's one thing I will not count against them. Detroit from about 1990-2010 (maybe earlier, I was only 4 at that time) was absolutely atrocious to live in but the city has done quite a good job.

With that being said everything their hockey team has is trash. And a lot of bad has happened with that squad. Seider has regressed. They've signed old men (relative to NHL age) to mentor the kids but most of them still look lost. I think Lucas Raymond is truly a great player but he has checked out this year, as someone said earlier, and I can get it because it must be truly demoralizing being part of that team. And watching that team tonight the Avs old tweener 2C/3C J.T. Compher was the most notable skater on the ice for Detroit. A guy with under 30 points is what you have to show when you're still technically in the Wild Card hunt?

Get rid of Yzerman.

 

[lidstromiscool]

Imagine watching Detroit since Christmas and thinking this team has the top end talent to compete with contenders. I love them, but Seider/Raymond/Larkin have all been mostly invisible. None of those guys are good enough to be the top guy on a contending team. Idk if they are even good enough to be the 2nd best player on a contending team. And no realistic avenue to get a franchise player either. This rebuild has been a failure, at what point do you tear it down again? Or do you just hope and pray the kids come up and we can have a year or two during Larkin's contract where the stars align and we make the playoffs and maybe even win a series. I hate to say it but if feels like the closest way for this team to be a legit contender again is to tear it down.

 

[SirKillalot]

You’re completely missing the point. Again.

Please, don’t attempt to seriously discuss hockey if you actually think there’s no point in Detroit’s young core players gaining valuable postseason experience.

But that is the point, you are not serious or trying to have a serious discussion. What you perceive as "valuable postseason experience" isn't what I perceive it as. Problem is you think its valuable to get thrashed and swept while I don't see the same value there as they get the similar input vs. top teams in the regular season.

This is why for me and many others, getting into the playoffs just to get in, isn't essential. Is it a bonus yes, but is it a live or die for moment in terms of player development, no.

 

[VivaLasVegas]

Yzerman may have had limited options in free agency. Detroit isn’t the easiest sell right now:

• Still rebuilding
• Lacking star power
• No tax advantages
• Unclear playoff future

He may have wanted bigger or better signings—but the reality may be, better players didn’t want to come, or wanted too much $$. So he had to settle for who would sign under his terms.

Right, the better FAs don't want to jump into the Yzermess. He is now the root cause of his own problems and the program will continue to spiral downward until he is given a box for his personal effects.

 

[bringbacktheskate604]

ASP (Defense being our biggest need)
Danielson
Bulchlnikov
MBN
Whoever the hell they pick this season

The same things were said about Kasper and now he’s been probably our third best forward since the coaching change after finally being taken off the 4th line. Scoring like 22 in his last 30 or something like that.

You can criticize Yzerman for a ton of things, but not for his drafting

Why not trade picks and prospects for players that can actually help the team now, not five years from now when the other guys drafted years ago are either gone or void of any playoff experience?

The wings are gonna become the sabres stuck in a perpetual rebuild, holding on to youth when the only way out of suckness is to actually surround a young core with players already established and broken out.

Trading Hronek was dumb since the guy you drafted with the pick likely never becomes as good and even if he does thats still 3+ years from now.
Wings fans make excuses for Stevie and his shitty UFA signings, calling them stop gaps. Why not sign or trade for actual good players that can help now and in the future.

Any team that had the tentpole pieces and wings fans say they do, it's at that point you proceed to the next step which isn't relying on the draft, it's uses accumulated picks and prospects to aquire players just entering their prime, or savvy vets.