Detroit Redwings Downfall

[ToDavid]

You have to appreciate the Leafs getting away with this looking at all these massive long ones like Red Wings and Sabres

2013 - G7 choke against Bruins with Kessel, team had been mostly building to end playoff drought and not be a joke
2014 - 84 pts regular season collapse
2015 - 68 pts Kessel traded for mediocre rebuilding package
2016 - 69 pts
2017 - our rebuild is over already lol

I'd say that's a pretty generous take on the late 00s/early 10s Leafs. It's true that you can sort of define 2015-2017 as its own distinct teardown and rebuild, but it was the culmination of a team that had been failing for years.

If not for some hot goaltending and shooting in a short season in 2013, it would have been an 11 season playoff drought by 2017.

 

[MVP of West Hollywd]

View attachment 947467

I don't think they were really rebuilding, 2006-2008 not at all as Sundin was on the team (they were so starved for any draft talent that Luke Schenn got treated as The Saviour for being a #5 overall stay at home defenseman prospect) and then by 2010 they had tried to go in on Kessel and Phaneuf as the pressure to make the playoffs again was immense, but they ended up getting a few young players in early 2010s.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Beacuse rosters don't tend to magically change overnight.

This is the 7th straight year that Detroit has been bottom 10 in xGF%, and the 9th straight year they've been <50%.

Washington's xGF% was not much better than Detroit last season and this year they're 3rd in the league.

 

[izlez]

You have to appreciate the Leafs getting away with this looking at all these massive long ones like Red Wings and Sabres

2013 - G7 choke against Bruins with Kessel, team had been mostly building to end playoff drought and not be a joke
2014 - 84 pts regular season collapse
2015 - 68 pts Kessel traded for mediocre rebuilding package
2016 - 69 pts
2017 - our rebuild is over already lol

Wait.... I think this is a serious post?

 

[ToDavid]

Washington's xGF% was not much better than Detroit last season and this year they're 3rd in the league.

Sure, exceptions always exist. Detroit could break the trend but unless there's signifcant roster overhaul, I wouldn't bet on it.

 

[GettingYourMoms]

He's not getting fired, I can already tell you that. You don't have to wonder.

Holland is going to save you at the end.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

I don't think they were really rebuilding, 2006-2008 not at all as Sundin was on the team (they were so starved for any draft talent that Luke Schenn got treated as The Saviour for being a #5 overall stay at home defenseman prospect) and then by 2010 they had tried to go in on Kessel and Phaneuf as the pressure to make the playoffs again was immense, but they ended up getting a few young players in early 2010s.

You can believe they weren't rebuilding all you want. They still were in Top 10 pick placement for five straight drafts from 2008-2012, two of which they traded for Kessel.

So either they didn't really begin "Rebuilding" until 2013, in which case your comparison is bullshit, or they started rebuilding way before you actually claimed, in which case yes, they did have a lengthy rebuild.

 

[saska sault]

Sure, exceptions always exist. Detroit could break the trend but unless there's signifcant roster overhaul, I wouldn't bet on it.

There's likely 8 players on the current team that will be on the roster 2 seasons from now. 2 of which will only be there because of their contracts unless they are magically moved with retention or for another contract.

This on page 67 of regurgitating the same info... Wings rebuild wasn't typical, still isn't over, current roster stinks, most of them won't be here for long, really no idea how the rebuild will turn out until the roster turnover actually happens... maybe get lucky and find some success in the meantime but that's not looking too likely for this season at the moment.

 

[Bank Shot]

There's likely 8 players on the current team that will be on the roster 2 seasons from now. 2 of which will only be there because of their contracts unless they are magically moved with retention or for another contract.

So where are the other 12 roster players coming from? You think the Red Wings are going to pump out like 6 quality NHLers in the next 2 years from their prospect pool? That would be something that is doesnt have a high probability of happening. Wings are 6 years into Yzerman and he's added 3 quality NHLers from the draft. Do fans expect the output to triple shortly?

Its unlikely the city itself and the lack of winning culture is going to draw any high calibre free agents.

 

[saska sault]

So where are the other 12 roster players coming from? You think the Red Wings are going to pump out like 6 quality NHLers in the next 2 years from their prospect pool? That would be something that is doesnt have a high probability of happening. Wings are 6 years into Yzerman and he's added 3 quality NHLers from the draft. Do fans expect the output to triple shortly?

Its unlikely the city itself and the lack of winning culture is going to draw any high calibre free agents.

I'd imagine there will be future trades, free agents and prospects. No one expects the entire prospect pool to meet expectations, many will not become anything.. some will over achieve.

 

[Quinning]

Man, they must be kicking themselves at trading Walman. 25 points in 29 games.

 

[Bank Shot]

I'd imagine there will be future trades, free agents and prospects. No one expects the entire prospect pool to meet expectations, many will not become anything.. some will over achieve.

The only substantial addition deal Yzerman has made in 6 years to put his stamp on the team is Debrincat and that was pretty underwhelming IMO.

Wings fans are expecting Yzerman to do a 180 in his GM style this offseason?

Usually the best predictors of future actions are past actions.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Man, they must be kicking themselves at trading Walman. 25 points in 29 games.

Not really kicking ourselves for trading Walman as much as attaching the 2nd, and doing jack shit to improve the right side of our blue line.

Though to be fair, I guess yes, I would go back in a heartbeat, keep the 2nd, and not sign that absolute abomination of a defender in Erik Gustafsson.

The only substantial deal Yzerman has made in 6 years to put his stamp on the team is Debrincat and that was pretty underwhelming IMO.

Wings fans are expecting Yzerman to do a 180 in his GM style this offseason?

Usually the best predictors of future actions are past actions.

Weird to talk about "Past actions" and completely ignore Yzerman's history in Tampa of making major trades...

No, Yzerman has not traded picks and prospects for Detroit, because they're not in a position to trade picks and prospects. Different story if Yzerman begins to feel they can compete.

 

[saska sault]

The only substantial addition deal Yzerman has made in 6 years to put his stamp on the team is Debrincat and that was pretty underwhelming IMO.

Wings fans are expecting Yzerman to do a 180 in his GM style this offseason?

Usually the best predictors of future actions are past actions.

Do I think Yzerman will change his methods as the team enters a different stages and the team has higher expectations? Most certainly. I'm not one to claim he's the savior and he can do no wrong although I am a "Yzerplan" supporter. I also believe he would have had little interest in Debrincat if Alex himself didn't want to only be in Detroit... that move did not fit his time line and the narrative he has pushed every press conference in the off season. The stars for lack of a better term, just aligned to pick up a relatively young player who could fit the long term picture for a low price.

Any non Wing fan simply can go to YouTube and watch his press conference and you'll see he's basically following the plan he has laid out for years. Will it be the right plan? Get a time machine and let me know folks.

 

[Bank Shot]

Not really kicking ourselves for trading Walman as much as attaching the 2nd, and doing jack shit to improve the right side of our blue line.

Though to be fair, I guess yes, I would go back in a heartbeat, keep the 2nd, and not sign that absolute abomination of a defender in Erik Gustafsson.



Weird to talk about "Past actions" and completely ignore Yzerman's history in Tampa of making major trades...

No, Yzerman has not traded picks and prospects for Detroit, because they're not in a position to trade picks and prospects. Different story if Yzerman begins to feel they can compete.

He could have traded guys like Walman and Hronek for other good young players.

He did trade picks for Debrincat. Hasn't had the impact of Miller and Mcdonagh.

His trades in Detroit haven't been anywhere near the same calibre as his trades in Tampa. Maybe that says more about the rest of the hockey management groups than it does about Yzerman.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I don't think they were really rebuilding, 2006-2008 not at all as Sundin was on the team (they were so starved for any draft talent that Luke Schenn got treated as The Saviour for being a #5 overall stay at home defenseman prospect) and then by 2010 they had tried to go in on Kessel and Phaneuf as the pressure to make the playoffs again was immense, but they ended up getting a few young players in early 2010s.

Leafs delayed out the timing of their rebuild when they traded a couple unprotected First for Phil Kessel but they did ultimately make a lot of high draft selections and were able to come out of it when Nylander, Marner and Matthews were all instant homerun picks three years in a row. If you look at their 2016-17 roster that broke into the postseason, their 5 leading scorers were high picks of the Leafs aside from JVR who was a 1-for-1 trade from another high pick and only one year older than the guy traded for. Their leading defenseman in terms of ATOI was also a high pick that they made.

So: Matthews, Van Riemsdyk, Kadri, Nylander, Marner, Rielly... all "rebuild" type acquisitions. In addition, Bozak was a college free agent signing, in part prioritized because the Leafs would have a rebuilding-ish roster. Jake Gardiner was a recent 1st round pick acquired as a prospect in a TDL for a veteran defenseman. Zaitsev was a KHL free agent borderline prospect who likely signed with the Leafs in part because they had space. Connor Brown was a later round draft pick. Komarov's journey was fairly similar to Zaitsev. Zach Hyman was an August 15th drafted and unsigned college free agent not too dissimilar to Bozak (who was undrafted).

Honestly, the Leafs had done "rebuilding-ish" stuff for a while.

 

[izlez]

The only substantial addition deal Yzerman has made in 6 years to put his stamp on the team is Debrincat and that was pretty underwhelming IMO.

Wings fans are expecting Yzerman to do a 180 in his GM style this offseason?

Usually the best predictors of future actions are past actions.

So: he is building through the draft.

His first 3 1st round draft picks look to be home runs.

His 4th 1st round draft pick is looking to be doing well in the NHL at 20 years old.

He has 4 more existing 1st round draft picks that are doing well in their progressions.

So based on of your criteria of past actions and future actions and all... why do you think he will struggle to find 6 quality NHL players or needs to do a 180 from his current plan of building through the draft?

(I suspect the problem here is you look to be an Edmonton fan and still haven't connected the dots that building a team of 19/20 year olds is not how to build a team)

 

[Bank Shot]

(I suspect the problem here is you look to be an Edmonton fan and still haven't connected the dots that building a team of 19/20 year olds is not how to build a team)

Yeah. I'm the biased one. Not the Red Wings fans that thought 91 points was the real Wings last year.....

Keep drinking the kool aid.

 

[The411]

That’s fine. The point of the chart was just the QoC metric, not the relative CF color scale. The players they face have the highest relative CF on their own teams, ie the best players on each team. They face the hardest competition in the league among that list of pairings (and actually in the entire NHL if you plot all defensemen), and manage a good xGA in that deployment. That’s why they are a top pairing in the league.

If the wings had any other dmen above 6/7D, they’d be 10x better. Chiarot is a decent 6D with good physicality. Petry, Holl, Gustafsson are all not NHL level players. Johansson shows promise but Lalonde doesn’t let him play. Raymond, Ed and Seider are the main reason the team isn’t 32nd.

This is why Wings fans still have some hope. Because the players Yzerman have drafted all actually look really good. It’s his FA signings and pro scouting that are truly abysmal. If the trend continues and ASP/Danielson/Cossa/MBN/buchelnikov/augustine + this years pick live up to their potential, we think we can do some damage. But obviously the pro scouting and UFA work has to get way better too. Stevie has definitely shit the bed in that department so far.

Stevie Y gave away Walman for a second and Walman has 24 pts in 29 games and is +6 on a Sharks team that is -28 for the year.

 

[RedHawkDown]

Stevie Y gave away Walman for a second and Walman has 24 pts in 29 games and is +6 on a Sharks team that is -28 for the year.

Precisely my point. His pro scouting sucks because he traded away Walman, a good player. But his drafting does not suck. His drafting is actually fantastic so far, especially at the top of the draft.

 

[sxvnert]

At this point the wings should be doing everything humanly possible to tank for a top three pick.

 

[saska sault]

Stevie Y gave away Walman for a second and Walman has 24 pts in 29 games and is +6 on a Sharks team that is -28 for the year.

Nice you did a Google search.

 

[Boy Hedican]

Stevie Y gave away Walman for a second and Walman has 24 pts in 29 games and is +6 on a Sharks team that is -28 for the year.

Actually, Stevie Y gave away Walman AND a Second for future considerations (aka, GMMG owes him dinner)

Nice you did a Google search.

Sharks fan here. He's playing great. It's not just points. He makes his mistakes at times as he's a fantastic skater with hands, but that gets him handcuffed sometimes. EK65 lite. But he's been awesome. His shot is huge and accurate. And his passes are crisp and on the tape.

 

[saska sault]

Actually, Stevie Y gave away Walman AND a Second for future considerations (aka, GMMG owes him dinner)


Sharks fan here. He's playing great. It's not just points. He makes his mistakes at times as he's a fantastic skater with hands, but that gets him handcuffed sometimes. EK65 lite. But he's been awesome. His shot is huge and accurate. And his passes are crisp and on the tape.

I'm happy for Walman. Nothing against the guy, it's a strange trade for sure. Clearly they didn't want him and it's looking like a win for San Jose... without any inside information, something went sour or Yzerman missed out on a bigger fish. Regardless, he wasn't viewed as a piece going forward or they would have moved someone else. He wasn't trusted down the stretch for reasons we will likely never know, besides not playing very well for half a season.

 

[izlez]

Sharks fan here. He's playing great. It's not just points. He makes his mistakes at times as he's a fantastic skater with hands, but that gets him handcuffed sometimes. EK65 lite. But he's been awesome. His shot is huge and accurate. And his passes are crisp and on the tape.

Paying to unload Walman is absolutely a weird/bad move that no one can wrap their head around, and he's doing well and good for him... but what the hell is this?

He's Erik Karlsson lite in the same way red wings legend Taro Hirose is Wayne Gretzky lite. Technically true, but absolutely 0 reason to say it.