Detroit Redwings Downfall

[BFLO]

Yikes. All that smugness and then doesn't know the difference between implied and inferred.

D'oh. I never claimed I could write above a 6th grade level.

I actually do know the difference. But I'll deservedly eat the humble pie for that mistake.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

D'oh. I never claimed I could write above a 6th grade level.

I actually do know the difference. But I'll deservedly eat the humble pie for that mistake.

The funny thing is, I wasn't following the thread closely enough to see who was right about the point you made being comprehensible or not, but your sad point about the literacy rate in the U.S. is true, depressing, and devastating.

I just couldn't let that little bit of hypocrisy go.

But you owned up like a real one and it's all in good fun anyway

 

[strattonius]

Reading posts like these and many others speaks to how uninformed the average fan truly is.

The reality is that a long rebuild was anticipated because of how deep of a hole Holland left behind.

“Yzerman needs to make more trades” they say while ignoring the fact he traded hronek Mantha bertuzzi which landed them Cossa, ASP and Debrincat. All of these moves are/project to be upgrades to the long term trajectory.

Red Wings fans understand that “everything is fine” because they understand it was always intended to be a deep rebuild. With that in mind 60% of yzermans draft picks are 21 or younger and even his oldest draft picks are yet to reach their prime.

The team is on the right track but more patience is necessary. Ya’ll are expecting him to turn water into wine but forget the best wines age for years before you enjoy them.

Not uninformed. Team was a mess when Yzerman arrived. He deserved a lot of rope. But the last 3 years have been extremely underwhelming.

There are hopeful prospects to turn this team around but that still isn't enough in the NHL for your organization's fortunes to change. You need to be adding better players in free agency and through trade as well.

It's pretty unbelievable that you're willing to defend Yzerman after that showing in free agency and then the predictably poor start to the year. The Red Wings have no pulse and this big bright future you're waiting for is hopeful at best. Even if the prospects hit, it's still a bleak group. That's basically what people against Yzerman are trying to say.

 

[ShakenNotStirred]

This team will be better when the placeholders are gone in the next couple years.

Tank is one of the worst defensive players on the team but he gets Selkie votes when he plays next to Kane. That dude is one dimensional and he doesnt score anymore.

The defense can't keep up with the speed of the game, outside of 53 and 77.

Talbot has been fantastic. Lyon was last year and husso the year before that.

Hopefully the deep prospect pool can plug some of the holes in the next few years. I will bust out pitch forks if they come in and bust out.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

It's a 32 team league now. Rebuilding a team is going to take longer (or more luck) than people are accustomed.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Reading posts like these and many others speaks to how uninformed the average fan truly is.

The reality is that a long rebuild was anticipated because of how deep of a hole Holland left behind.

“Yzerman needs to make more trades” they say while ignoring the fact he traded hronek Mantha bertuzzi which landed them Cossa, ASP and Debrincat. All of these moves are/project to be upgrades to the long term trajectory.

Red Wings fans understand that “everything is fine” because they understand it was always intended to be a deep rebuild. With that in mind 60% of yzermans draft picks are 21 or younger and even his oldest draft picks are yet to reach their prime.

The team is on the right track but more patience is necessary. Ya’ll are expecting him to turn water into wine but forget the best wines age for years before you enjoy them.

Here's the rub from my perspective. In no way do I think it should be acceptable for the Red Wings to pick between 8th and 15th after this season. They've picked between 8th and 15th for three consecutive seasons. Not good enough to make the postseason, not good enough to pick high. If they do end up picking between 8th and 15th, then a very real question should be "well then why the heck were they only picking 8th back in 2022 and not making a higher selection?" In no way can you convince me that a team needs to "mid out" for four consecutive seasons as a necessary and proper step of the rebuild.

So that's the issue we run into, on the one hand, people want to praise the Red Wings for raising from the basement of the League to the... not basement. However, that rise has not actually correlated with anything meaningful. They've been stuck in the mud, spinning their wheels while "waiting for the kids" because "it's a long rebuild". It seems some want it both ways. If it's a long, slow rebuild, you may as well have gone all in on bottoming out for more than just a season and really positioned yourself for better picks. Had they picked higher the last few years, with the rest of their prospect pool through excess picks and the like, they'd be in a much better position today.

I don't think in good faith the veteran free agent signings can be justified with "building a culture" or "learning how to compete". Those are junk words used to indicate a fear of tanking because ownership or ego gets in the way. That stuff doesn't take four seasons. Larkin was on one of the worst teams ever back then, is he forever damaged goods because he didn't "learn how to win"? But he himself was extended long-term presumably to win. Either those free agents were supposed to get Detroit into the playoffs and were bad signings, or they were part of a foolish strategy to intentionally nerf the value of the players you can select in Consecutive Non-Playoff seasons. Framing it as though everything was done with the exact intent of what it produced would just make Yzerman's whole "plan" look really stupid. I'd rather a GM make some small mistakes than have a foolish plan to begin with.

 

[VeteranPresence]

Pretty sure this topic has been discussed ad nauseam at this point. Not sure why so many non Wings fans are so invested in the Wings not doing well right now.

Because Yzerman's fans seem deadset on defending his brilliance. It's what keeps this thread going. There'd be nothing to argue about if they opted to live in reality with the rest of us but here we are still debating whether the team really has three #1 defensemen and is better than New Jersey, lmao.

 

[cowboycoffee]

By 2010, ownership had repeatedly asked Ken Holland to move into a team president role so Steve could step in as GM. Holland again said no, Mr Illitch didn't force the issue and Steve left for Tampa. That's what changed everything for the Red Wings. Holland spent the next 9 years destroying the future of the team.

 

[Czechboy]

Because Yzerman's fans seem deadset on defending his brilliance. It's what keeps this thread going. There'd be nothing to argue about if they opted to live in reality with the rest of us but here we are still debating whether the team really has three #1 defensemen or not, lmao.

You forgot Larkin is also better than Eichel.

 

[thefutures]

Oilers drafted 1st overall in 2010 which was their 1st of 4 1st overalls, and made the playoffs 1 time in 8 years, you would think some of these people would understand team building takes time, especially when Ken Holland is signing abedlkader and Franz Nielson to Darnell nurse type contracts on his way out

 

[RedHawkDown]

Here's the rub from my perspective. In no way do I think it should be acceptable for the Red Wings to pick between 8th and 15th after this season. They've picked between 8th and 15th for three consecutive seasons. Not good enough to make the postseason, not good enough to pick high. If they do end up picking between 8th and 15th, then a very real question should be "well then why the heck were they only picking 8th back in 2022 and not making a higher selection?" In no way can you convince me that a team needs to "mid out" for four consecutive seasons as a necessary and proper step of the rebuild.

So that's the issue we run into, on the one hand, people want to praise the Red Wings for raising from the basement of the League to the... not basement. However, that rise has not actually correlated with anything meaningful. They've been stuck in the mud, spinning their wheels while "waiting for the kids" because "it's a long rebuild". It seems some want it both ways. If it's a long, slow rebuild, you may as well have gone all in on bottoming out for more than just a season and really positioned yourself for better picks. Had they picked higher the last few years, with the rest of their prospect pool through excess picks and the like, they'd be in a much better position today.

I don't think in good faith the veteran free agent signings can be justified with "building a culture" or "learning how to compete". Those are junk words used to indicate a fear of tanking because ownership or ego gets in the way. That stuff doesn't take four seasons. Larkin was on one of the worst teams ever back then, is he forever damaged goods because he didn't "learn how to win"? But he himself was extended long-term presumably to win. Either those free agents were supposed to get Detroit into the playoffs and were bad signings, or they were part of a foolish strategy to intentionally nerf the value of the players you can select in Consecutive Non-Playoff seasons. Framing it as though everything was done with the exact intent of what it produced would just make Yzerman's whole "plan" look really stupid. I'd rather a GM make some small mistakes than have a foolish plan to begin with.

2021 - no player that is clearly better than Edvinsson at the moment
2022 - only Slaf and Cooley are clearly better than Kasper at the moment; so pick woudl have had to be #1 or #3
2023 - here i agree. getting one of carlsson/fantilli/michkov would be a big boon to the rebuild
2024 - way too early to say anything but only celebrini has done anything in the nhl

outside of 2023 im not sure that tanking in any of these drafts would have made any significant difference.

 

[WarriorofTime]

2021 - no player that is clearly better than Edvinsson at the moment
2022 - only Slaf and Cooley are clearly better than Kasper at the moment; so pick woudl have had to be #1 or #3
2023 - here i agree. getting one of carlsson/fantilli/michkov would be a big boon to the rebuild
2024 - way too early to say anything but only celebrini has done anything in the nhl

outside of 2023 im not sure that tanking in any of these drafts would have made any significant difference.

If you upgrade let's say... Kasper to Cooley, Danielson to Fantilli, MBN to Iginla, it's hard not to think Detroit has a better future outlook.

 

[SirloinUB]

Because Yzerman's fans seem deadset on defending his brilliance. It's what keeps this thread going. There'd be nothing to argue about if they opted to live in reality with the rest of us but here we are still debating whether the team really has three #1 defensemen and is better than New Jersey, lmao.

Admittedly I’ve read a fraction of this thread but please share with me where some in this thread has used the word “brilliance” or has “3 number 1 dmen”.

Sincere red wings fans would say he’s been a steady hand and that’s about it.

 

[Oddbob]

Because Yzerman's fans seem deadset on defending his brilliance. It's what keeps this thread going. There'd be nothing to argue about if they opted to live in reality with the rest of us but here we are still debating whether the team really has three #1 defensemen and is better than New Jersey, lmao.

This thread exists because it was created by non Wings fans!

 

[LarKing]

Because Yzerman's fans seem deadset on defending his brilliance. It's what keeps this thread going. There'd be nothing to argue about if they opted to live in reality with the rest of us but here we are still debating whether the team really has three #1 defensemen and is better than New Jersey, lmao.

You says fans as if there are multiple people sharing that 3 #1 dman opinion. As far as I've read, there's only been one. You're arguing with one person it seems

 

[Kaners PPGs]

Which would be a relevant comparison if Detroit’s U25 pipeline was as empty as Pittsburgh. As it stands, you’re comparing a crashing airplane with one lifting off because they happened to be at the same altitude.

Great analogy

 

[saska sault]

This whole Wings have 3 #1 defense. Potentially? Sure. Currently they have 1. Mo is a #1 defenseman. How good is to be determined. Currently would say he's trending to be a top 15 to 20 guy going forward, at 23 he is still going to grow.

Simon needs 3 years of evidence or to grow in big leaps to get in that conversation. Personally just feel Mo is entering being a safe bet to be a top pairing guy for his prime. So let's see how that plays out... looks very promising so far.

ASP is a prospect. Having a historically great season but needs to come over on the smaller ice and play in North America. I don't think the current way the Wings run. He would get a spot on the roster without some AHL time but our current defense is mostly trash so... crazier things have happened. Safe guess is 3 to 5 years before we know if ASP is going to be able to live up to his early hype.

I'd say most Wings fans would agree with those statements, so 1 out of 3 for now.

 

[brentashton]

Steve has disappointed me. He’s playing an extremely long game.


Too long, actually.

 

[Ulysses31]

Yzerplan strikes again

 

[TheDoldrums]

Yzerplan strikes again

big win against a rival for the coveted 12th place in the east

 

[LarKing]

big win against a rival for the coveted 12th place in the east

I mean, we get a flurry of activity in here after every loss. Are we not allowed to do it after wins?

 

[TheDoldrums]

I mean, we get a flurry of activity in here after every loss. Are we not allowed to do it after wins?

I think the thread is more about the bigger picture, which as it stands is Detroit cruising to another year without the playoffs. If they rattled off a few wins a row to get in the Buffalo range, it might make more sense. But we're all free to post as we like, as I am with snark!

 

[brentashton]

Yzerplan strikes again

Pump…the…brakes.

It was just Lou’s sad sacks.

 

[Dotter]

You know that trading is not restricted to top-5 picks, right? If Yzerman has the incredible trading skills you implied, well there's no shortage of players or prospects on the Wings that should be jettisoned for a good return.



Of course the question is a bit of a trap, since most teams who require a rebuild are likely to obtain a 3rd overall pick by chance, even if that top-3 pick doesn't do much. But despite that, it still happened.

The Cup-winning Ducks were built without picking top-3 (technically they picked Ryan at 2 in 05, but he hadn't made the NHL when they won). Similarly, the post-lockout Flyers bottomed out, and bounced back before their 2nd overall had even left college. The Preds sank in the early 2010s and climbed back out to make the Finals without picking higher than 4th. The late 2010s Isles actually bounced back when their sole top-3 pick left in free agency, and made multiple deep runs. Arguably the post-lockout Sharks too, depending on when you feel they were "built"; they did not pick top-3 after Brad Stuart in 98. The recent Wild too, if you believe in their strong start, unless you feel merely being mediocre doesn't qualify you for a rebuild. And I'm sure I'm missing many.



Your expectations for drafting are damn low. Yes those two picks were certainly good picks, but hitting on your high pick and whiffing on the 10 other picks is not a sign of great drafting.

I can count between 10 and 15 post-1st round players from the 2019 draft alone that would improve the Wings roster. Many are already pretty good players: Vlasic, Protas, Macelli, Kochetkov, Dorofeyev, Voronkov...

2020 looks a bit weaker in late rounds, but there were still good players found in the 2nd and 3rd. Faber, Peterka, Evangelista, Laferriere...

If those drafts were so weak, how do you explain the fact that all the other bad teams (Anaheim, Buffalo, NY, LA, NJ, Chicago, Ottawa, Arizona...) found NHL players outside the top-10, while Detroit didn't despite having more picks than anyone else?



I won't, but I'm a bit worried you might expect it. In roughly 20 years of lurking on those boards, I have never seen a fan with as much blind faith in a team executive as you.

You are trying to have an honest conversation but I can tell you're not too informed on DRWs or Yzerman... so I'm not going to beat you up too bad. Looks like you are already under attack by other posters on here.

I'll just say rebuilding teams aren't making big trades... they are rebuilding. Remember, Yzerman didn't start making impact trades in Tampa until year #7; Drouin for Serg (June 15, 2017). He became GM of Tampa in May 2010. Also note Yzerman started in Tampa with nice assets from Stamkos, Hedman, Marin St. Louis, Vincent Lecavalier etc...

It wasn't until 2018 until he made the blockbuster trade. Yzerman sent Namestnikov, prospects Libor Hajek and Brett Howden, a 2018 first-round pick and a 2019 conditional second-round pick to the Rangers for forward J.T. Miller and defenseman Ryan McDonagh.

As for the few tweeners you pointed out that Yzerman "missed" in the 2019 draft, you find those guys in the UFA every year. They aren't gamebreakers and aren't considered big whiffs. Yzerman signed UFA placeholder (centerman) J.T. Compher who scores more than most of those guy you mentioned, and he's a shutdown guy. (centerman) Copp has put up over 40 points as well.

Also, look at Yzerman's 2019 draft selections. Notice a trend? Half selected were Defensemen, a few gritty forwards and a goalie. Why do you think that is? I can give you the answer if you don't know.

 

[SympathyForTheDevils]

You are trying to have an honest conversation but I can tell you're not too informed on DRWs or Yzerman... so I'm not going to beat you up too bad. Looks like you are already under attack by other posters on here.

That condescending tone might have passed a little better if I didn't have to correct you on the position played by your own team's prospect.

I'll just say rebuilding teams aren't making big trades... they are rebuilding.

That is simply demonstrably false. Bad teams make significant trades just as often than contenders, if not more. Which makes sense, as those teams have a bigger incentive to make a change. And pretty often those trades actually help them get out of the basement.

As for the few tweeners you pointed out that Yzerman "missed" in the 2019 draft, you find those guys in the UFA every year. They aren't gamebreakers and aren't considered big whiffs. Yzerman signed UFA placeholder (centerman) J.T. Compher who scores more than most of those guy you mentioned, and he's a shutdown guy. (centerman) Copp has put up over 40 points as well.

And you have the gall to call me uninformed? Then again, if you don't even know your own team's prospects, why would you know players on other teams?

Aleksei Protas currently has double Lucas Raymond's production at even-strength. Faber is the #1 Dman on the 3rd best team in the league. Laferriere, Peterka and Dorofeyev individually have more production than Copp and Compher combined; they're all pacing to score more than these two players ever have in Detroit. Even Vlasic is outscoring Compher, and he's a defensive Dman on a garbage team. Also they're all young and are paid very little; they're all great NHL assets, the kind that are exactly what Detroit lacks right now. And no you don't get dirt-cheap 23 year-olds on a 60 pt pace in UFA. You get them by actually drafting well.

The funny thing, you didn't actually have to white-knight Yzerman for this. I was mostly posting this to poke at your Yzerman cult of personality shtick. Frankly it's not that big a deal; it's normal for GMs to miss out on great mid/late-round picks, and all teams have lean years where they don't get anything outside the first-round, even teams with normally great scouting. It's just weird that your devotion to your team's GM is so strong that you feel the urge to shit-talk every pick he doesn't make.

This is like discussing geopolitics with a North Korean party official; interesting, but ultimately pointless. Onto ignore you go; good luck with all that blind faith, you're certainly going to need it in years to come.