Defensive Surplus

[On Edge]

I think hammer is struggling cause he's moved away from just being a shutdown guy ... in my opinion he just needs to simplify his game, hit the net with the quick wrister, and punish guys in the corners and in front of the net ...

In other words, the coach is dropping the ball by not taking corrective measures and instructing a player how to adjust his game.

 

[redbull]

I'm just not convinced this forward unit is as bad as it looks. I believe this has a ton to do with Cappy. I guess time will tell.

Our depth is not going to net us a top six forward though. We will only get one if we trade Leddy or Hamonic and that isn't going to happen.

they are as bad as they look - maybe even worse.

The only two players on pace for 10+ goals this year are: Tavares, Nelson

Let that sink in.

The rest of the forwards are terrible offensively and most are also terrible defensively.

Strome, Lee, Bailey, Ladd, Clutterbuck - if some of these guys get super hot, they may get 10.

Chimera, Kulemin, Quine, Prince, Cizikas, Beavillier - these guys make up the rest of the roster and I don't see any goals here at all. Players on the decline, players aren't good enough, or too young - Zeeker & Beau are the only ones I'd even keep beyond this year.

This is a last place team both on paper and in the standings.

 

[GrandmaSlices51631]

We may have 8 bodies that can play in the NHL but we're still missing a true #1D, Leddy is the closest we have, but he is more of a high end #2.

Is D a position of strength? Hard to really say that when we are routinely hemmed up in our own zone and allow the most shot attempts in the league.



Hamonic has been flat out bad this season. He is not playing with poise and composure, has coughed up the puck leading to grade A scoring chances. I also noticed when he doesn't skate it out and wraps it around he boards, it's almost always held at the line by our opposition.

I do agree that something has to give. Pulock should be protected because we desperately need him on the 6 for 50 PP. I feel he's a good enough skater and strong enough that he will learn to play well in his own zone.

Since Hamonic is locked up long term and we have an internal replacement it makes sense he is shopped 1st.

 

[lovegun]

We have a deep and above average defense core, but our forwards leave a lot to be desired and as far as Kane from Buffalo goes, I'd rather have Kane from the WWE

 

[YearlyLottery]

they are as bad as they look - maybe even worse.

The only two players on pace for 10+ goals this year are: Tavares, Nelson

Let that sink in.

The rest of the forwards are terrible offensively and most are also terrible defensively.

Strome, Lee, Bailey, Ladd, Clutterbuck - if some of these guys get super hot, they may get 10.

Chimera, Kulemin, Quine, Prince, Cizikas, Beavillier - these guys make up the rest of the roster and I don't see any goals here at all. Players on the decline, players aren't good enough, or too young - Zeeker & Beau are the only ones I'd even keep beyond this year.

This is a last place team both on paper and in the standings.

You really think this team is the WORST team in the NHL? Give me a break.

Do we really think Strome, Ladd, Lee, and Clutterbuck don't have a spot on most NHL teams? The difference is most NHL teams have a coaching staff in their ear every day of the year unlike Cappy.

 

[GrandmaSlices51631]

Also, WPG has Trouba and Buff. Why would they trade Wheeler for Hamonic?

To get younger? To shed salary? I don't see that as a fit , essentially we would have their top line but replace Little with JT. May work short term but WPG won't do it so no point in penciling him into our lineup

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

We may have 8 bodies that can play in the NHL but we're still missing a true #1D, Leddy is the closest we have, but he is more of a high end #2.

Is D a position of strength? Hard to really say that when we are routinely hemmed up in our own zone and allow the most shot attempts in the league.



Hamonic has been flat out bad this season. He is not playing with poise and composure, has coughed up the puck leading to grade A scoring chances. I also noticed when he doesn't skate it out and wraps it around he boards, it's almost always held at the line by our opposition.

I do agree that something has to give. Pulock should be protected because we desperately need him on the 6 for 50 PP. I feel he's a good enough skater and strong enough that he will learn to play well in his own zone.

Since Hamonic is locked up long term and we have an internal replacement it makes sense he is shopped 1st.

If this makes sense at all, I see the group of forwards as a condemnation of Snow, while the group of defensemen as a condemnation of Capuano.

What I mean by that is, I think Snow has left the forwards with too many holes for even the better coaches to do much with. However, the defense corps (on paper) should be much better than what it's showing, and that falls on the coach.

 

[A Pointed Stick]

I think hammer is struggling cause he's moved away from just being a shutdown guy ... in my opinion he just needs to simplify his game, hit the net with the quick wrister, and punish guys in the corners and in front of the net ...

That is a big issue and he is kind of jacked up because The Great Developer tried to ram that defensive square peg into the offensive round hole for years. Two games ago (when we won) he was playing a simple game at least through 2 periods. I think the problem started with the handoff between his junior team, agent, and us. They got fooled by his mobility with the puck & size into thinking he would be some version of Pronger. It didn't happen, obviously, yet years later they kept on trying because of the team's needs, not because of the best way to develop him. They want to make him into Seabrook, the defensive partner for a Keith. FAIL, and it isn't Travis' fault. I saw it way back when. The puck movement is a bonus, but he should have spent all his time learning how to separate NHL guys from the puck and transitioning. He can skate well enough with the biscuit but they want him to finish too, and be an accurate point man. His shooting instincts are mediocre (I am being very very generous). Even when he can penetrate the wall of defenders with the puck it is high and wide like a 1980s Jet field goal kicker too many times. I would never profess to be an NHL level coach, but there are things I would have worked with him on different than what this team obviously did.

But I 110% disagree in moving him as suggested by a few posters I respect. He is still a good defensive defenseman, when he keeps his game simple, just like you said. That is hard enough to find, don't trade it for the shiny player du jour.

 

[redbull]

You really think this team is the WORST team in the NHL? Give me a break.

Do we really think Strome, Ladd, Lee, and Clutterbuck don't have a spot on most NHL teams? The difference is most NHL teams have a coaching staff in their ear every day of the year unlike Cappy.

what are we arguing exactly, whether they'll finish 26th? or 29th? or dead last?

I expect in the 26-30 range with the same coaching staff that yielded back to back 100pt seasons and a playoff round win.

We can blame whomever the falvour of the day is - Strait, Bailey, Capuano, Weight, Snow, Ledecky, Wang - doesn't change the fact that the on-ice product is among the worst in the NHL.

The goaltending is good, though Greiss is way better than Halak who still tends to have lapses.

Defense is good

Forwards are pathetic. Tavares looks defeated and chasing the play, forcing plays when he carries the puck, they cannot create. And that's the only positive, an ineffective superstar on pace for another declining season and his last year before free agency.

Could some forwards make other teams? sure. But they're all mis-cast here. What top team would have Bailey-Strome-Clutterbuck-Beavillier on their first line? On a top team, with 5-6 "very good" forwards, you can have an effective role for Kulemin, Chimera, Prince, Quine, Strome - but expecting them to produce is why the team is where it is.

Lee, Nelson, Strome, Ladd - they can probably all play, and produce, if they play with TWO good forwards - but the Isanders don't have two good forwards.

So when you put three players together, none of whom can carry a line, you get a struggling line and all three look worse than they are. This is why any combination of such players yields shameful results.

Poor forwards, poor zone time, poor possession means more pressure on the defense (so Hamonic, Boychuk, Leddy look worse than they are) and more susceptible to bad goals/late goals/ or "puck luck" as Capuano points out.

PUCK LUCK.

PUCK LUCK.

Shame to even write that - how does he get away with it? Delusional? absolutely. puck luck and bounces is what the Isles have when they WIN. When they lose, it's because they're not better than the opponent.

They've won three games in regulation - TOR, VAN, ARIZ, MIN
Been outshot by 10+ shots 4 times
Shorthanded 16 more times
Given up 8 more PP goals than they've scored

They are a terrible team in every quantifiable way and in the standings.

It's the same coaching staff so as much as I don't like Capuano, tough to blame him unless he suddenly started coaching differently.

But here's what DID happen.
Strome Lee regressed significantly

The minutes/responsibilities that were Frans, Okposo, (including JT's wingers, special teams) Martin are now spread among Ladd, Chimera, Quine, Prince, Beauvillier.

100pts means squat when the teams are so close, the Islanders took MANY STEPS back and it shows each game and in the standings.

Don't see a way out of this mess. Not this season and likely not next season.

 

[redbull]

If this makes sense at all, I see the group of forwards as a condemnation of Snow, while the group of defensemen as a condemnation of Capuano.

What I mean by that is, I think Snow has left the forwards with too many holes for even the better coaches to do much with. However, the defense corps (on paper) should be much better than what it's showing, and that falls on the coach.

they are related though, they all play at the same time and when the forwards cannot sustain any zone time or create offense, they can't even generate quality scoring chances, it puts too much pressure on the defense.

And most importantly, some forwards not only can't score, they are embarrassing in their own end. Quine, Prince, Strome, Nelson, Lee are terrible in their own end.

While Kulemin, Bailey, Clutterbuck, Chimera, Cizikas may never score, they can play without the puck.

The defense is very good, they've been very good in the past too - but the forwards this year would make Potvin-Lidstrom-Bourque look outmatched.

 

[YearlyLottery]

what are we arguing exactly, whether they'll finish 26th? or 29th? or dead last?

I expect in the 26-30 range with the same coaching staff that yielded back to back 100pt seasons and a playoff round win.

We can blame whomever the falvour of the day is - Strait, Bailey, Capuano, Weight, Snow, Ledecky, Wang - doesn't change the fact that the on-ice product is among the worst in the NHL.

The goaltending is good, though Greiss is way better than Halak who still tends to have lapses.

Defense is good

Forwards are pathetic. Tavares looks defeated and chasing the play, forcing plays when he carries the puck, they cannot create. And that's the only positive, an ineffective superstar on pace for another declining season and his last year before free agency.

Could some forwards make other teams? sure. But they're all mis-cast here. What top team would have Bailey-Strome-Clutterbuck-Beavillier on their first line? On a top team, with 5-6 "very good" forwards, you can have an effective role for Kulemin, Chimera, Prince, Quine, Strome - but expecting them to produce is why the team is where it is.

Lee, Nelson, Strome, Ladd - they can probably all play, and produce, if they play with TWO good forwards - but the Isanders don't have two good forwards.

So when you put three players together, none of whom can carry a line, you get a struggling line and all three look worse than they are. This is why any combination of such players yields shameful results.

Poor forwards, poor zone time, poor possession means more pressure on the defense (so Hamonic, Boychuk, Leddy look worse than they are) and more susceptible to bad goals/late goals/ or "puck luck" as Capuano points out.

PUCK LUCK.

PUCK LUCK.

Shame to even write that - how does he get away with it? Delusional? absolutely. puck luck and bounces is what the Isles have when they WIN. When they lose, it's because they're not better than the opponent.

They've won three games in regulation - TOR, VAN, ARIZ, MIN
Been outshot by 10+ shots 4 times
Shorthanded 16 more times
Given up 8 more PP goals than they've scored

They are a terrible team in every quantifiable way and in the standings.

It's the same coaching staff so as much as I don't like Capuano, tough to blame him unless he suddenly started coaching differently.

But here's what DID happen.
Strome Lee regressed significantly

The minutes/responsibilities that were Frans, Okposo, (including JT's wingers, special teams) Martin are now spread among Ladd, Chimera, Quine, Prince, Beauvillier.

100pts means squat when the teams are so close, the Islanders took MANY STEPS back and it shows each game and in the standings.

Don't see a way out of this mess. Not this season and likely not next season.

All I am trying to say is I wonder how bad they would still be if they had a different coach in here. The team does look awful now but so much can happen. Saying NEXT season is already over is an ignorant statement. Within 15 minutes of each other they picked up Leddy and Boychuk, so how do you know what they are going to do over the course of an entire year?

 

[redbull]

All I am trying to say is I wonder how bad they would still be if they had a different coach in here. The team does look awful now but so much can happen. Saying NEXT season is already over is an ignorant statement. Within 15 minutes of each other they picked up Leddy and Boychuk, so how do you know what they are going to do over the course of an entire year?

maybe a coach would help, sure.

next year?
look at the free agent crop (maybe there's another Ladd? Parenteau?)
look at who we have with trade value
look at what can be realistically expected from Beauvillier, Ho-Sang, Dal Colle, Barzal, Pulock
look at who's on the roster that will be significantly better next year

If you don't think next year is also at risk then you aren't paying attention.

how many things have to go right for this team to be better? Can Tavares be far better? nope.

The committed salary/cap/roster spots:
Tavares
Ladd
Grabovski
Kulemin
Lee
Cizikas
Bailey
Strome
Nelson
Chimera
few others for around $40MM and Clutterbuck is a UFA

Boychuk
Leddy
Hamonic
Hickey
Pulock
another $20MM and deHaan/Pelech RFAs

Greiss is a UFA, Berube likely be a UFA, Halak another $5MM

so around $65-70MM (assuming Grabo on LTIR and the money needed to bring back a goalie, Clutterbuck, deHaan - knowing we'll lose someone to Vegas.

I see 10 forwards, 5 dmen, 1 goalie --- let's call that the CORE. Same as this year. A year older.

What you see is what you get.

Maybe Brock Nelson and Dal Colle will bring back Matt Duchene or Evander Kane - maybe on EA Sports - as for trades, when I see a good one from this regime, it'll be the first time.

Maybe we can find another 34goal Grabner on waivers? what about Parenteau again?

Happy Thanksgiving my american friends!

 

[LeapOnOver]

Kane? Come on, the guy is a problem and I don't want him anywhere near this group... at all. The guy is a schmuck and is always getting into trouble.

Bringing Kane to Brooklyn would be like taking a prisoner who has been locked up for 20 years and inviting him to a prostitution convention. Nothing good will come of it....for the Isles anyway.

 

[majormet]

I'm just not convinced this forward unit is as bad as it looks. I believe this has a ton to do with Cappy. I guess time will tell.

Our depth is not going to net us a top six forward though. We will only get one if we trade Leddy or Hamonic and that isn't going to happen.

I think the only way we get a top 6 forward will be through trading from defense, Hamonic for Wheeler would be the type of trade that we would need.

We don't get the desired free agents and we can't get rid of prospects yet.

I think the group of forwards has hidden gems in there that will surface like Quine and Prince... I think Lee will wake up, but beyond JT the forward group is not the same as it was with 3 lost guys

 

[majormet]

Also, WPG has Trouba and Buff. Why would they trade Wheeler for Hamonic?

To get younger? To shed salary? I don't see that as a fit , essentially we would have their top line but replace Little with JT. May work short term but WPG won't do it so no point in penciling him into our lineup

Winnipeg has a lot of weakness on defense, if you sign Brian Strait in the offseason that means you are suiting up some dogs... Hamonic gives them a 3rd solid dman.

Winnipeg's forwards group is now much younger guys like Laine and Schieferle... Wheeler comes to the Isles for the "win now' move and Hammer is part of a 2-3 year climb for the Jets.

 

[Sparksrus3]

This team could do a Hamonic for Blake Wheeler trade at this point, Winnipeg has dismal defense. Hammer goes to Manitoba at last

You have to hope dehaan can keep playing well

Leddy/Boychuk
deHaan/Pelech
HIckey/Pulock

Seidenberg/Mayfield

If Pulock falters Seidenberg moves into place

Wheeler is the RW we need

Wheeler is a top tier wing . I would think Hamonic would not be enough and I don't think a 3rd or Quine
makes it up. To get Wheeler it will cost us.

Seidenberg IMO was our best D man prior to his injury. He easily has a spot in the top 6 when he is ready to return.

 

[majormet]

Wheeler is a top tier wing . I would think Hamonic would not be enough and I don't think a 3rd or Quine
makes it up. To get Wheeler it will cost us.

Seidenberg IMO was our best D man prior to his injury. He easily has a spot in the top 6 when he is ready to return.

I think Wheeler plus a 2nd for Hamonic/Dal Colle gets it done.

 

[warrior60]

I think Wheeler plus a 2nd for Hamonic/Dal Colle gets it done.

It's going to take a lot more then that to get Wheeler.

 

[majormet]

It's going to take a lot more then that to get Wheeler.

Hmm if Leddy and JT are off the table, it may take the other 16 players to get him then LOL

 

[ThreeLeftSkates]

Travis being home grown could cause more locker room woes if he were traded. He has been our heart and soul, moreso than Matt Martin.
We better get serious help from whoever they get for him.