Defense - Is it Really About the System or the Talent?

[Canadiens1958]

Playing without the puck properly sets up defence and offence.

 

[KingsFan7824]

"In the past the man has been first; in the future the system must be first"

 

[BodaciousBeefBazooka]

Is there another word for system? I dislike that overused word. Defensive schematic?

 

[KyleSeaBass]

Having 6 mobile d-men that can all skate very well and transition the puck to the forwards in as little time as possible is the new NHL, Vegas showed it. You don't need a bunch of Norris candidates to have a good defense, it's all about how the forwards puck hound and the d-men transitioning the puck out of their zone. The best defense is the one where you rarely have to spend time in your own zone.

Because Ron Hainsey just screams mobile smooth skating defenseman.

 

[TGWL]

It's both. Players don't just go out and play. The team /coaches has a offense/defense zone structure they want to implement. The players, while excelling or downing, go out on the rink and try to play to what's being asked of them. You can't have any player have success in any system, regardless of the talented player. You need the right type of players, or you need to change your system to fit the players you have. If you're going to force a system and not change it, then you need to change the players. There's probably talented defensemen in the NHL that look and perform really badly because they're trying too hard to do what the coach wants, while being the wrong guy for that role.

 

[SenzZen]

 

[BostonBruins11]

seems like someone is trying to justify the Leaf's poor D..... good one

 

[BostonBruins11]

Having 6 mobile d-men that can all skate very well and transition the puck to the forwards in as little time as possible is the new NHL, Vegas showed it. You don't need a bunch of Norris candidates to have a good defense, it's all about how the forwards puck hound and the d-men transitioning the puck out of their zone. The best defense is the one where you rarely have to spend time in your own zone.

The problem is most(not all) mobile D are bad defensively and when the opposition establish zone time those "mobile D" look like chickens with their head cut off.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

need the right mix of both.

good defensemen will look like crap in a bad system

a good system will look like crap with bad defensemen

 

[BAM]

Because Ron Hainsey just screams mobile smooth skating defenseman.

I forgot the part where I said Hainsey was a mobile smooth skating d-man...

 

[BAM]

The problem is most(not all) mobile D are bad defensively and when the opposition establish zone time those "mobile D" look like chickens with their head cut off.

No not always. Mobile d can also mean guys like Jones, McAvoy, Josi, Provorov, Vlasic, Rielly, Doughty, etc that are great with shot suppression and are great in the transition area.

 

[SuperScript29]

I think a good measure for this is how many teams won the cup without elite talent? Every team needs top pairing material to win the cup, off of the top of my head, I have only witnessed one team with an average group of d-men win the cup, and that was the Carolina Hurricanes in 2006.

 

[BrockLobster]

The 1st 3 games of the islanders season showed me its clearly system and coaching.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

I think a good measure for this is how many teams won the cup without elite talent? Every team needs top pairing material to win the cup, off of the top of my head, I have only witnessed one team with an average group of d-men win the cup, and that was the Carolina Hurricanes in 2006.

2017 pens too. It can be done but it's not ideal. 2017 pens won by the skin of their teeth, not really a sustainable model. 2016 pens had Letang who was playing the best hockey of his career and was a top 5 dman that year.

 

[SuperScript29]

The 1st 3 games of the islanders season showed me its clearly system and coaching.

Yea, because 3 games is a great sample size

 

[SuperScript29]

2017 pens too. It can be done but it's not ideal. 2017 pens won by the skin of their teeth, not really a sustainable model. 2016 pens had Letang who was playing the best hockey of his career and was a top 5 dman that year.

Yea the 2017 Pens may be another team, but I would argue that Schultz overachieved that year and played like a top pairing guy, I guess a similar argument can be made for the Canes in 2006 for Frantisek Kaberle.

 

[Harvey Birdman]

Yea the 2017 Pens may be another team, but I would argue that Schultz overachieved that year and played like a top pairing guy, I guess a similar argument can be made for the Canes in 2006 for Frantisek Kaberle.

The 2017 Pens were the most stressful team to watch. Every time the puck got turned over in the neutral zone just grab a coin and flip it if we'd have a goal against. And if Ron Hainsey was on the ice you were crossing your fingers the entire time.

 

[Tralfamadore]

In other words Leafs need a better system.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

To a point yeah. But you need guys who can defend 1on1 and win battes to an end as well. Also goaltending can have a big influence on team defense.

 

[BonMorrison]

Combination but mostly system.

As a Preds fan that always gets told how we got "tHe BeSt ToP 4 iN tHe LeAgUe", it hasn't won us shit yet. Not to say we have a bad system, we don't, it's fine - but just having elite defenseman isn't winning us championships. Obviously there were other factors in our last two playoff losses (cough Rinne) but yeah.

 

[Crede777]

Currently, having a "stacked" blueline means that the defense help drive offense and possession rather than simply reducing goals against. Having an elite goaltender may primarily reduce goals against, but teams usually take that to mean they can take more chances offensively which means that elite goalie will get exposed to more high scoring chances.

 

[Elvs]

A combination of both. But system's and chemistry are more important than many will tell you, not only on defense but offensively also.

Anyway, the Ducks have had half their forward group consist of rookies thus far because injuries have already piled up. Even with Carlyle as the coach, we wouldn't be outshot like this if we were healthy.

 

[Peat]

Yea the 2017 Pens may be another team, but I would argue that Schultz overachieved that year and played like a top pairing guy, I guess a similar argument can be made for the Canes in 2006 for Frantisek Kaberle.

Schultz was immense offensively, but probably not even in our top half of dmen defensively that run. Maatta and Dumo were probably our best defensive dmen that run.



As for the question... when we say talent, are we talking just the guys on the blue line, or all skaters?

Because I feel like the importance of the forwards is oft ignored. I feel like over 50% of what people are talking about when they come to system is "Are the forwards working hard and not taking silly risks?". And the talent there makes a difference. No system on earth will help you if you've got two forwards like Conor Sheary on the ice, even if he does have a great forecheck.

 

[Kshahdoo]

Lol, it's both.

You can have all the talent in the world, but when you go forward to the offensive zone, a forward has to stay behind to back you up, and he doesn't. Then opponents make a break away pass, get 2 vs 1 and score. Of course, people will blame you, because you're a defenseman, but they should actually blame the system, that doesn't work.

But if you don't have enough talent, you won't be able to play properly even the bestest system ever.

 

[bluedevil58]

I think a good measure for this is how many teams won the cup without elite talent? Every team needs top pairing material to win the cup, off of the top of my head, I have only witnessed one team with an average group of d-men win the cup, and that was the Carolina Hurricanes in 2006.

That was 3 pairings of above average defenders though. Not great, not good, but very solid.