Decline of the Montreal aura/mystique

[LightningStorm]

As most of you know, this month is the 20th anniversary of the Patrick Roy trade. Most agree that the decline of the Montreal mystique was complete when that happened. And as Big Phil pointed out, the closing of the legendary Montreal Forum at the end of that season only added to this, as he mentions here:

Another underrated thing was that Roy wasn't at the closing of the Forum. That was really a travesty. Your most iconic recent player wasn't even there, it was awful. It is funny how these two issues sort of happened at the same time more or less. The Forum is gone for good and the aura - almost an infallible aura - of Montreal is gone as well.

My question is what do you guys think were the main reasons behind Montreal losing this aura of there in the 16 years between 1979 (their last cup in their late 70's dynasty) and 1995 (the Roy trade that was the final piece)?

I'll also add 2 thoughts I have about their 2 post dynasty cups in 1986 and 1993:

1. It's a testament to the Habs that they were able to win 2 cups in the span of 1980-1993 considering both the Oilers and Islanders had dynasties during that span as well as the Penguins mini dynasty towards the end of the span. 2 cups in that 14 season span is impressive with those dynasties that took place during that span.

2. It is worth pointing out that in both 1986 and 1993 the 2 time defending champs and heavy favorites to 3-peat those seasons (Edmonton with Gretzky and Pittsburgh with Lemieux) were upset in the playoffs, so the Habs avoided the dynasties at the time on those cup runs. Also relevant though is that the Habs beat both of the teams that pulled off those upsets (Calgary and the NY Islanders). Plus the Calgary team they beat in 1986 largely resembled the 1989 Flames team that returned the favor to Montreal that season. And for a question related to this topic, how much did the Flames becoming the first visiting team to win the cup in the Forum diminish Montreal's aura?

Apologies for this post being a bit long winded. Thanks in advance.

 

[The Panther]

Interesting topic.

Plus the Calgary team they beat in 1986 largely resembled the 1989 Flames team that returned the favor to Montreal that season.

Well, not so closely resembled -- 1986 Flames don't have Nieuwendyk, Fleury, or Gilmour, or Roberts. '86 Flames were a team on the rise, but they weren't a great team yet, by some distance.

And for a question related to this topic, how much did the Flames becoming the first visiting team to win the cup in the Forum diminish Montreal's aura?

I don't think it diminished it at all. Calgary was the (slightly) better team in '89, and when they won in the Forum, the polite Montreal crowd applauded them and it was all very nice. In addition, the fact that it was a feel-good story with Lanny McDonald winning a Cup, finally, and actually scoring a big goal in his last game, was a terrific ending. I would actually say that Boston eliminating Montreal at the Forum in '88 was a bigger 'mar' on the Forum legacy, though still nothing to worry about.

 

[sr edler]

Interesting topic.

Well, not so closely resembled -- 1986 Flames don't have Nieuwendyk, Fleury, or Gilmour, or Roberts.

Or even Joe Mullen?

Edit: They had Mullen. Got him that season from St. Louis.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

they made pierre turgeon captain. that's the dagger.

 

[Moose Head]

All goes back to Ronald Corey. Everything bad that's happened since 89. Yeah, they won the cup in 93, but the decay was already showing.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Definitely

All goes back to Ronald Corey. Everything bad that's happened since 89. Yeah, they won the cup in 93, but the decay was already showing.

Correct except the problems started with the 1986 Stanley Cup victory and what happened on the ice was only the tip of the ice berg. Off ice business issues best exemplified by the Circle des Êtoiles adventure - attempt to open team shop style boutiques across the province of Québec.

People tend to point to the post Sam Pollock era- Irving Grundman period as the start but that was only a bump in the road, similar to the post 1956-60 era. Fixable with some patience. Fresh elements were in place, required some maturity.

Since Goeff Molson and his management team have taken over the on ice and business operations have returned to the pre Ronald Corey philosophy.

 

[Tricolore#20]

Correct except the problems started with the 1986 Stanley Cup victory and what happened on the ice was only the tip of the ice berg. Off ice business issues best exemplified by the Circle des Êtoiles adventure - attempt to open team shop style boutiques across the province of Québec.

People tend to point to the post Sam Pollock era- Irving Grundman period as the start but that was only a bump in the road, similar to the post 1956-60 era. Fixable with some patience. Fresh elements were in place, required some maturity.

Since Jeff Molson and his management team have taken over the on ice and business operations have returned to the pre Ronald Corey philosophy.

Interesting perspective. Could you elaborate on Circle des Etoiles? I'd never heard of that before, but sounds interesting.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Circle des Etoiles

Interesting perspective. Could you elaborate on Circle des Etoiles? I'd never heard of that before, but sounds interesting.

I could but before I do, are readers familiar with NHL radius restrictions as they were in the 1980s and before?

Basically touched various business activities such as the transmission of live game feeds into another member team's area, marketing efforts, promotional efforts, retail sales of branded merchandise, etc.

May have to lay the ground work first.

 

[nutbar]

Interesting perspective. Could you elaborate on Circle des Etoiles? I'd never heard of that before, but sounds interesting.

I would like to hear about it, and the background behind it, as well.

 

[BLNY]

As most of you know, this month is the 20th anniversary of the Patrick Roy trade. Most agree that the decline of the Montreal mystique was complete when that happened. And as Big Phil pointed out, the closing of the legendary Montreal Forum at the end of that season only added to this, as he mentions here:


My question is what do you guys think were the main reasons behind Montreal losing this aura of there in the 16 years between 1979 (their last cup in their late 70's dynasty) and 1995 (the Roy trade that was the final piece)?

I'll also add 2 thoughts I have about their 2 post dynasty cups in 1986 and 1993:

1. It's a testament to the Habs that they were able to win 2 cups in the span of 1980-1993 considering both the Oilers and Islanders had dynasties during that span as well as the Penguins mini dynasty towards the end of the span. 2 cups in that 14 season span is impressive with those dynasties that took place during that span.

2. It is worth pointing out that in both 1986 and 1993 the 2 time defending champs and heavy favorites to 3-peat those seasons (Edmonton with Gretzky and Pittsburgh with Lemieux) were upset in the playoffs, so the Habs avoided the dynasties at the time on those cup runs. Also relevant though is that the Habs beat both of the teams that pulled off those upsets (Calgary and the NY Islanders). Plus the Calgary team they beat in 1986 largely resembled the 1989 Flames team that returned the favor to Montreal that season. And for a question related to this topic, how much did the Flames becoming the first visiting team to win the cup in the Forum diminish Montreal's aura?

Apologies for this post being a bit long winded. Thanks in advance.

One can easily argue that the Isles dynasty missed out on having to play the Habs in 1980 and 1981. Habs were a power house still in 1980. Isles were on the rise, but 25 points behind the Flyers in their own division that season. Habs were victims of untimely injuries, decreased depth compared to the 70s, and first round exits. Losing to the Oilers and North Stars were big upsets.

History is all about the woulda, shoulda, coulda.

The 93 team was a league leader before the last ten games of the season when they had a bad slump going into the playoffs. Despite that slide into the playoffs they finished with over 100 points. I've always dismissed those that think that season was an anomaly. If Pittsburgh had managed to get by the Islanders, Montreal was plenty good enough to beat them. I think Boston or Quebec could have too.

What put the Canadiens in the position they were in from 1998 to 2002 was poor asset management. After the 1984 draft, there were a lot more strike outs than home runs. Combine that with putrid pro scouting and you end up with a group that had leading scorers like Petrov and Zholtok. Imagine what might have been if they'd been able to surround Koivu with some talent ...

 

[Canadiens1958]

Circle des Êtoiles

Interesting perspective. Could you elaborate on Circle des Etoiles? I'd never heard of that before, but sounds interesting.

Since the start of the NHL in 1917 there were various territorial rights that protected a teams rights in their home market. Various radius restrictions were in place. Usually these were defined from center ice of a team's home arena.

Some examples of infringements over the years. Bruins home games were available in the Montréal market via CH 22 out of Mt. Washington. These were blacked out in the 1970s.

Problem was that in the agreement there were "Grey Zones".

After winning the Stanley Cup in 1986, the Canadiens decided to expand their souvenir stores located outside the Montréal Forum to physical locations throughout the province. Previously the Canadiens had sold their souvenirs / collectibles via mail order worldwide. However they shipped from their Forum Boutique location.

The outside boutiques were called Circle des Êtoiles, headed by Maurice Corey.Soon they had mall locations as far away as Hull and Sherbrooke, plus other points beyond the radius restriction on such stores.

Obviously the Nordiques complained and they had to reign in the project, eventually closing all at a suggested seven figure loss.

This episode was symptomatic of the deteriorating hockey and business operations under Ronald Corey. Lip service was paid to image - players were traded because they sullied the brand but the return never matched the value sent away or the effort put forth supporting the team brand in the marketplace.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Player Development

One can easily argue that the Isles dynasty missed out on having to play the Habs in 1980 and 1981. Habs were a power house still in 1980. Isles were on the rise, but 25 points behind the Flyers in their own division that season. Habs were victims of untimely injuries, decreased depth compared to the 70s, and first round exits. Losing to the Oilers and North Stars were big upsets.

History is all about the woulda, shoulda, coulda.

The 93 team was a league leader before the last ten games of the season when they had a bad slump going into the playoffs. Despite that slide into the playoffs they finished with over 100 points. I've always dismissed those that think that season was an anomaly. If Pittsburgh had managed to get by the Islanders, Montreal was plenty good enough to beat them. I think Boston or Quebec could have too.

What put the Canadiens in the position they were in from 1998 to 2002 was poor asset management. After the 1984 draft, there were a lot more strike outs than home runs. Combine that with putrid pro scouting and you end up with a group that had leading scorers like Petrov and Zholtok. Imagine what might have been if they'd been able to surround Koivu with some talent...

Never replaced from within - Claude Ruel, Ron Caron or the string of scouts both junior and pro that had been around from Frank Selke Sr/Sam Pollock days.

Also stopped developing coaches at the junior and AHL level. Jacques Lemaire, Pierre Craemer, Pat Burns all learned in junior or the AHL, Sherbrooke. Jean Hamel was on the track but did not follow the AHL team to Fredericton for family reasons.

After that until Guy Boucher the Canadiens AHL team never had a viable future NHL head coach.

Significant turnaround lately Under Geoff Molson and Marc Bergevin.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I really like Geoff Molson and what he brought to the franchise since he took over.I feel like the culture is coming back to what it was before the 20 years-long fiasco.

I don't expect as many Stanley Cups but I expect a respected and winning (by today's standards) franchise.

It's not that I hated Gillett though, he wasn't all bad, but eventually Gainey became or always was a bad GM and Gillett trusted him blindly.But before Gillett it was a farce.Regardless, I prefer Molson.He knows what the Montreal Canadiens are and represent.

 

[luffis]

Pardon my ignorance, but was is not during this time somewhere when Montreal lost their monopoly on Quebec talent?

 

[Fenway]

When the Forum closed the mystique vanished.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Symbolically

When the Forum closed the mystique vanished.

Symbolically but the off ice hockey and business traditions were eroded under Ronald Corey and replaced by superficiality - hiring of Mario Tremblay and Rejean Houle after Savard, Demers and others were let go in 1996.

Simply there was no coaching or management personnel coming up in the ranks ready to take over. Tremblay and Houle were cosmetic, hired on a hope and a prayer.

 

[LightningStorm]

Interesting topic.

Well, not so closely resembled -- 1986 Flames don't have Nieuwendyk, Fleury, or Gilmour, or Roberts. '86 Flames were a team on the rise, but they weren't a great team yet, by some distance.

While nobody disputes the 1989 Flames were better than the 1986 one, I don't think the difference is quite as big as you imply. For the 4 players you mentioned, Gilmour and Nieuwendyk were certainly huge additions since they were both in their primes at the time, but 1989 was before both Roberts and Fleury hit their primes.

It's also worth noting that there were some things that favored the 86 squad. Lanny McDonald had his last season playing at a high level that year, plus they traded for John Tonelli that season. Tonelli was an experienced player who was on the Isles dynasty and gave them valuable experience. He was gone by 1989, and that roster had no players who had previously won the cup. On defense, they had Paul Reinhart in 86 but not 89. Also worth pointing out that Gary Suter missed most of the playoffs both years.

So while there's no disputing the 89 Flames were better, I don't think they were a big step above the 86 squad.

 

[Buck Aki Berg]

When the Forum closed the mystique vanished.

Didn't help that the final game was on a Wednesday night vs. Dallas. Should've been on a Saturday night against ... I can think of a good half-dozen teams more befitting for the occasion.

 

[double5son10]

Never replaced from within - Claude Ruel, Ron Caron or the string of scouts both junior and pro that had been around from Frank Selke Sr/Sam Pollock days.

Also stopped developing coaches at the junior and AHL level. Jacques Lemaire, Pierre Craemer, Pat Burns all learned in junior or the AHL, Sherbrooke. Jean Hamel was on the track but did not follow the AHL team to Fredericton for family reasons.

After that until Guy Boucher the Canadiens AHL team never had a viable future NHL head coach.

Significant turnaround lately Under Geoff Molson and Marc Bergevin.

Al MacNeil as well. I was intrigued in reading Douglas Hunter's bio on Scotty Bowman that some in the organization were more concerned about MacNeil's departure from the Voyageurs to the Flames than they were of losing Scotty. Big blow to player development. MacNeil became Cliff Fletcher's (also a Pollock protege) right hand man in the Flames organization and was Assistant GM when they beat the Habs for the Cup in '89.

To be fair the Canadiens did help develop Claude Julien and developed Michel Therrien (for good and ill). Whatever happened to Paulin Bordeleau?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Exactly

Didn't help that the final game was on a Wednesday night vs. Dallas. Should've been on a Saturday night against ... I can think of a good half-dozen teams more befitting for the occasion.

Exactly .... optimized revenues against a weak mid-week draw against a non-rival - Dallas. Then opened the Bell Center against the Rangers.

Two consecutive Saturdays to close and open against traditional rivals like Toronto and Boston would have respected tradition but would not have improved the bottom line.

 

[Melrose Munch]

All the canadian teams have seen their mystique decline since about 1990.

 

[Buck Aki Berg]

Exactly .... optimized revenues against a weak mid-week draw against a non-rival - Dallas. Then opened the Bell Center against the Rangers.

Two consecutive Saturdays to close and open against traditional rivals like Toronto and Boston would have respected tradition but would not have improved the bottom line.

I dunno - I'm pretty sure that 1996 predates dynamic pricing in the NHL (speaking from experience, they definitely weren't doing it in Ottawa), and I'm sure there were enough people who would have wanted to get into the Forum either one time or one last time that they'd've had no problem filling the place all year (according to hockeydb.com, they were playing to 101.5% capacity that season.

 

[tony d]

When Roy was traded that ruined Montreal, they haven't recovered since.

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Pardon my ignorance, but was is not during this time somewhere when Montreal lost their monopoly on Quebec talent?

I thought this myth had been refuted long ago?

 

[Canadiens1958]

NHL Ready

Al MacNeil as well. I was intrigued in reading Douglas Hunter's bio on Scotty Bowman that some in the organization were more concerned about MacNeil's departure from the Voyageurs to the Flames than they were of losing Scotty. Big blow to player development. MacNeil became Cliff Fletcher's (also a Pollock protege) right hand man in the Flames organization and was Assistant GM when they beat the Habs for the Cup in '89.

To be fair the Canadiens did help develop Claude Julien and developed Michel Therrien (for good and ill). Whatever happened to Paulin Bordeleau?

Throw in Alain Vigneault who like Julien and Therrien was rushed to the NHL just like Mario Tremblay and basically told learn on the job.

Paulin Bordeleau left the organization soon after Serge Savard/Jacques Demers were fired. Assistant coach with TB, some European and Laval -Q time. Since 2011 coaching Midget AAA, Collège Esther-Blondin, private school.