Player Discussion David Quinn: Part II

[True Blue]

You are literally insufferable. You fail to concede even the most obvious points.

Hello? Oh, sorry. The pot is on the other line for you.

Whatever the reason that experienced coaches are hired, the most important criteria to JD & Gorton was not winning the most amount of games in these several years. Why is this such a hard concept for you to grasp?

Reference- literally every NHL franchise in history but more specifically - Toronto, Florida just in the past few years.That’s the point here.

Every single franchise in history has at one point hired an experienced coach? Wow. In other news, water is found to be wet.

Every single Stanley Cup winning coach in the entire history of the NHL, was at one point without experience.

Experienced head coaches are the ones organizations turn to when they want to win games. I can’t make it simpler than that for you. NCAA coaches are coaches teams turn to when all the experienced guys turn them down.

Clearly Gorton did not seem fit to consult you or your logic before following through with his well thought out plan.

Regardless of the personal nonsense at this point— I GURANTEE your boy David Quinn does not give these guys the absolutely gigantic handful of excuses you give to them in each post— I guarantee he does not go into any locker room and say “oh it’s ok, you are a rookie, continue to miss execute,” I guarantee he challenges them to be better each shift and does not believe for one second that they should be allowed to make mistakes and fail to perform to the level he expects from them( which I believe I prett darn high.)

You mean the coach tries to have his team win every game? Again, what a novel concept. And who pray tell is arguing against it?

Pleas do us all a favor and stop with the paved pathway of excuses you constantly provide here and buy into the idea that the team should be held to high standards. Otherwise, your defense of Quinn is disingenuous— because you are arguing o this forum the exact opposite of what I’m absolutely confident he is telling his players each game. He’s telling them “they are capable of playing better” where as you want us all to believe “this is the best they can play.”

Wait, let me get this straight. My comments regarding Quinn are disingenuous but yours are completely logical and the only ones that make sense?

And again, you are confident that he is imploring his players to win? Which of the many, many people that have been arguing with you have said any different?

Whether he’s the guy to get them to play better or whether he has the wherewithal to actually elevate their game is what’s up for debate in my mind.

Speaking of absolutely refusing to concede any point, would you like to go through all of the posts from multiple people who have pointed out do you the players that have elevated their game? Or are you just going to continue rambling on and continuing to ignore anything anyone tells you as it will muddy your narrative?

Please, not for a second do I believe that Quinn thinks like you do and is feeding them excuses. He absolutely agrees with those like myself who want this team to be held to a high standard.

Pssst.....this is what is referred to as a strawman argument. It occurs when a person tries to obfuscate an argument be arguing points that no one is debating.

 

[JHS]

Hello? Oh, sorry. The pot is on the other line for you.

Whatever the reason that experienced coaches are hired, the most important criteria to JD & Gorton was not winning the most amount of games in these several years. Why is this such a hard concept for you to grasp?

Every single franchise in history has at one point hired an experienced coach? Wow. In other news, water is found to be wet.

Every single Stanley Cup winning coach in the entire history of the NHL, was at one point without experience.


Clearly Gorton did not seem fit to consult you or your logic before following through with his well thought out plan.

You mean the coach tries to have his team win every game? Again, what a novel concept. And who pray tell is arguing against it?

Wait, let me get this straight. My comments regarding Quinn are disingenuous but yours are completely logical and the only ones that make sense?

And again, you are confident that he is imploring his players to win? Which of the many, many people that have been arguing with you have said any different?

Speaking of absolutely refusing to concede any point, would you like to go through all of the posts from multiple people who have pointed out do you the players that have elevated their game? Or are you just going to continue rambling on and continuing to ignore anything anyone tells you as it will muddy your narrative?

Pssst.....this is what is referred to as a strawman argument. It occurs when a person tries to obfuscate an argument be arguing points that no one is debating.

Listen, I think I'm done with you and your incredibly impossible to follow points here. You lay out excuse after excuse and literally only offer insight into the most obvious of conclusions( like young players make more mistakes as experienced ones.) My hunch here is you just enjoy arguing( proven by the fact that you argue with every single poster on here over and over again.) Try offering up something new here and maybe I'll have something to discus with you. As of now, you can have your status as "thread captain" and continue to just drive any possible debate straight into the ground by multi-quoting a response and pretending you are winning any points with me or those that actually can understand the game of hockey and the way players develop on a much deeper level than you seem to show here.

For those that still want to engage in actual debate, I'd like to.

 

[True Blue]

Try offering up something new here and maybe I'll have something to discus with you.

How incredibly rich.

As of now, you can have your status as "thread captain" and continue to just drive any possible debate straight into the ground by multi-quoting a response and pretending you are winning any points with me or those that actually can understand the game of hockey and the way players develop on a much deeper level than you seem to show here.

Oh, I get to be Captain? Cool. What powers come with that?

For those that still want to engage in actual debate, I'd like to.

By ignoring every single point that every single person makes to you? Good luck.

Oh, and if you do not want to be responded to, then do not post in a thread.

 

[JHS]

How incredibly rich.

Oh, I get to be Captain? Cool. What powers come with that?

By ignoring every single point that every single person makes to you? Good luck.

Oh, and if you do not want to be responded to, then do not post in a thread.

Ignore buttons exist for a reason.

 

[True Blue]

Ignore buttons exist for a reason.

Then I suggest you start using it

 

[Harbour Dog]

 

[Athor]

I GURANTEE your boy David Quinn does not give these guys the absolutely gigantic handful of excuses you give to them in each post— I guarantee he does not go into any locker room and say “oh it’s ok, you are a rookie, continue to miss execute,” I guarantee he challenges them to be better each shift and does not believe for one second that they should be allowed to make mistakes and fail to perform to the level he expects from them( which I believe I prett darn high.)...Otherwise, your defense of Quinn is disingenuous— because you are arguing o this forum the exact opposite of what I’m absolutely confident he is telling his players each game. He’s telling them “they are capable of playing better” where as you want us all to believe “this is the best they can play.”

Whether he’s the guy to get them to play better or whether he has the wherewithal to actually elevate their game is what’s up for debate in my mind. Please, not for a second do I believe that Quinn thinks like you do and is feeding them excuses. He absolutely agrees with those like myself who want this team to be held to a high standard.

Do you like, not realize the difference between a realistic outside assessment of the team vs. what the coach is saying & wants out of them? Do you think the entirety of Detroit's organization is expecting wins this year? Do you think any objectively bad team in the world is going into the locker room telling their players it's okay?

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

I'm pretty sure Quinn himself wouldn't want people wasting this much energy on him

It's hilarious

 

[JHS]

Do you like, not realize the difference between a realistic outside assessment of the team vs. what the coach is saying & wants out of them? Do you think the entirety of Detroit's organization is expecting wins this year? Do you think any objectively bad team in the world is going into the locker room telling their players it's okay?

I agree with what you are saying-- it's those that give passes to everyone in the organization that is unrealistic. This is professional sports- not youth level competition. Professional athletes expect to be held accountable for performance. That's my point, so why advance an idea that professional athletes can't be held to a standard of accountability. It's more ludicrous to assert that we can't hold players and coaches accountable than it is to say they should be.

Detroit is not a hallmark for how accountability works. They are not in the same position as the Rangers. I never held Quinn or the team to absurd standards last year-- I do believe this team is further along in development than most here and that is the crux of the issue.

 

[Athor]

I agree with what you are saying-- it's those that give passes to everyone in the organization that is unrealistic. This is professional sports- not youth level competition. Professional athletes expect to be held accountable for performance. That's my point, so why advance an idea that professional athletes can't be held to a standard of accountability. It's more ludicrous to assert that we can't hold players and coaches accountable than it is to say they should be.

I think it's important to keep expectations in perspective. I believe this team is further along in acquiring the talent for the future, but that has had a negative effect on consistency & defensive breakdowns. That's just what happens with young players, especially when on new teams with all new faces & players they're not used to playing with yet. They just need time. We see games where they can skate with anyone in the league, and other games where we give up 40 shots to the Devils. It takes a little while to learn all the little idiosyncrasies & small style differences of each player. As they grow together they'll look more & more cohesive which is what we've seen the past 25 games. I'm not saying that people can't be held accountable, but they have to be judged based on what can be reasonably expected.

I don't disagree with having high expectations; that's always a good thing for a team environment. When they sometimes fail to meet those expectations though it's just important to remember where we are in the rebuild. Almost every successful rebuild takes at least 3-5 years. We're halfway through year 2 right now. Patience is what JD has been preaching all along & I think it's much better to look at things in chunks of 20ish games for a better sense of where the team is headed.

 

[JHS]

I think it's important to keep expectations in perspective. I believe this team is further along in acquiring the talent for the future, but that has had a negative effect on consistency & defensive breakdowns. That's just what happens with young players, especially when on new teams with all new faces & players they're not used to playing with yet. They just need time. We see games where they can skate with anyone in the league, and other games where we give up 40 shots to the Devils. It takes a little while to learn all the little idiosyncrasies & small style differences of each player. As they grow together they'll look more & more cohesive which is what we've seen the past 25 games. I'm not saying that people can't be held accountable, but they have to be judged based on what can be reasonably expected.

I don't disagree with having high expectations; that's always a good thing for a team environment. When they sometimes fail to meet those expectations though it's just important to remember where we are in the rebuild. Almost every successful rebuild takes at least 3-5 years. We're halfway through year 2 right now. Patience is what JD has been preaching all along & I think it's much better to look at things in chunks of 20ish games for a better sense of where the team is headed.

This seems like a really fair take. I appreciate it! I agree that we all need to be realistic in expectations and that's why I believe it is totally fair to hold the team accountable for defensive blunders. To clarify, I don't expect perfection-- that's absurdly high standards. I do expect NHL players to play a system that promotes defensive responsibility. My entire issue is I don't think their being asked to even play a defensively responsible system therefore we can't really judge if they can't execute that type of system.

 

[NYR]

Hello? Oh, sorry. The pot is on the other line for you.

Whatever the reason that experienced coaches are hired, the most important criteria to JD & Gorton was not winning the most amount of games in these several years. Why is this such a hard concept for you to grasp?

JD wasn't around when Quinn was hired.
Their criteria was NOT about winning?
Bro, c'mon..You've been around long enough now and this is beyond silly..
I highly doubt DQ would be coaching the NYR today had JD been apart of the this ridiculous hiring process...

 

[NYR]

I think it's important to keep expectations in perspective. I believe this team is further along in acquiring the talent for the future, but that has had a negative effect on consistency & defensive breakdowns. That's just what happens with young players, especially when on new teams with all new faces & players they're not used to playing with yet. They just need time. We see games where they can skate with anyone in the league, and other games where we give up 40 shots to the Devils. It takes a little while to learn all the little idiosyncrasies & small style differences of each player. As they grow together they'll look more & more cohesive which is what we've seen the past 25 games. I'm not saying that people can't be held accountable, but they have to be judged based on what can be reasonably expected.

I don't disagree with having high expectations; that's always a good thing for a team environment. When they sometimes fail to meet those expectations though it's just important to remember where we are in the rebuild. Almost every successful rebuild takes at least 3-5 years. We're halfway through year 2 right now. Patience is what JD has been preaching all along & I think it's much better to look at things in chunks of 20ish games for a better sense of where the team is headed.

I have to some what agree and disagree.
They give up 40 SOG nearly every game and it's due to the most fundamental mistakes.
At what point do you say..OK, this isn't working.
What do we have to change??

As far as young players? It's all about managing endurance over an 82 game + playoffs schedule.

Example, Torts: He brings the heat when he can but also can have his team sit back on a lead when they're tired or on a back to back.

Play the cards you're dealt IMO..

 

[McRanger]

Ok, but this IS only his second full season, is it not? Call him apple juice if you want, he is not a veteran presence.

He's the same age and has the same experience McDonagh had the year we went to the cup. He's not a rookie or a sophomore or inexperienced.

If you were deploying him as our best defenseman (Trouba), his defensive statistics would go down the drain. We both know that looking at stats blindly, can obfuscate reality.

Same here. He IS a rookie, whether you not you want to admit that. And again, start to deploy him like a true top defenseman, and stats go down the crapper.

Lindgre & Hajek ARE rookies, are they not? And again, same comment as the above three, though not nearly to such a great extent. And really, is comparing a finished Staal to anyone worth the conversation? Aside to illustrate how understaffed it is?

So the ARE rookies with little experience who made up half of the starting defense for quire a while this year?

The Rangers have played 130 games under Quinn, 48 this year. They've played 18 games with three rookies defensemen, all this year, amounting to a little more than a third of the current season. They've played 0 games with three rookies D and a sophomore D. Zero.

You misrepresented the makeup of our D and this has gone from me poking fun at your harmless hyperbole to you doubling down and arguing reality with me. The D is very young, its just not as young as said.

And the second part of your argument, that somehow the youth is responsible for shit stats is illogical. Players without bad stats can't be responsible for bad stats. The players with shit stats are responsible for the bad stats.

The. Kids. Are. Not. The. Problem. Only. Because. They. Do. Not. Log. The. Toughest. Minutes. That. The.True. Top. Defenseman. Does.

This. Makes. No. Sense. Whatsoever.

How would having other rookie defensemen on the team make the veterans worse when they aren't on the ice at the same time? Our top pair of Skjei and Trouba have awful stats why, because they are nervous about being watched by Fox and Lindgren?

This whole argument is nuts but I think my favorite part is how we are somehow sheltering 2 different D pairings. Fox and Deangelo, 2 right handed defensemen on different pairs, are somehow both being sheltered. The whole sheltering thing is overblown to start with (like we play every game at home with the last change and the other team doesn't have any say on who plays when) but this is a new concept. Fox, who has the 3rd most D zone starts and the best stats is both sheltered and the cause of our bad stats. He is an impressive young man.

You really need to revist some of our past defensive pairs if you believe that Skjei and Trouba are among the worst ever. And does that mean that Trouba's play is among the worse ever? Or only when paired with his partner?

Of course I don't think they are the worst pair, that is the point. They are statistically awful despite not being... you know what never mind.

I understand. I just disagree. And, for now, where we are going to have to agree to disagree. I do believe that Quinn has a structure. I also believe that the younger players need to learn how to play in it. And I think that they slowly are.

We have never had such a young and inexperienced team, that is also thin throughout the line up and really is not stacked with talent. To me, this team finished last year pretty much where I thought they would. They are currently either at or even surpassing my expectations. I see players playing hard for him and steps forward by younger players and vets alike. From that perspective, there is nothing bizarre about it.

I just explained what I like.

So you're happy with Quinn because you expected the Rangers to suck and because you think they are working hard, presumably harder than they would for other coaches. Got it.

 

[NYR]

He's the same age and has the same experience McDonagh had the year we went to the cup. He's not a rookie or a sophomore or inexperienced.



The Rangers have played 130 games under Quinn, 48 this year. They've played 18 games with three rookies defensemen, all this year, amounting to a little more than a third of the current season. They've played 0 games with three rookies D and a sophomore D. Zero.

You misrepresented the makeup of our D and this has gone from me poking fun at your harmless hyperbole to you doubling down and arguing reality with me. The D is very young, its just not as young as said.

And the second part of your argument, that somehow the youth is responsible for **** stats is illogical. Players without bad stats can't be responsible for bad stats. The players with **** stats are responsible for the bad stats.




This. Makes. No. Sense. Whatsoever.

How would having other rookie defensemen on the team make the veterans worse when they aren't on the ice at the same time? Our top pair of Skjei and Trouba have awful stats why, because they are nervous about being watched by Fox and Lindgren?

This whole argument is nuts but I think my favorite part is how we are somehow sheltering 2 different D pairings. Fox and Deangelo, 2 right handed defensemen on different pairs, are somehow both being sheltered. The whole sheltering thing is overblown to start with (like we play every game at home with the last change and the other team doesn't have any say on who plays when) but this is a new concept. Fox, who has the 3rd most D zone starts and the best stats is both sheltered and the cause of our bad stats. He is an impressive young man.



Of course I don't think they are the worst pair, that is the point. They are statistically awful despite not being... you know what never mind.



So you're happy with Quinn because you expected the Rangers to suck and because you think they are working hard, presumably harder than they would for other coaches. Got it.

You have a lot more patience than me lol
Good post..

 

[True Blue]

He's the same age and has the same experience McDonagh had the year we went to the cup. He's not a rookie or a sophomore or inexperienced.

Is this his second full year?

The Rangers have played 130 games under Quinn, 48 this year. They've played 18 games with three rookies defensemen, all this year, amounting to a little more than a third of the current season. They've played 0 games with three rookies D and a sophomore D. Zero.

You misrepresented the makeup of our D and this has gone from me poking fun at your harmless hyperbole to you doubling down and arguing reality with me. The D is very young, its just not as young as said.

And when it has not been 3 rookies, it has been 2 rookies and Staal. Do you really think that swap strengthens your argument?

It is pretty much exactly as young as I think it is. Adding Staal to the mix certainly makes them seem older, but it certainly does not make them any better.

And the second part of your argument, that somehow the youth is responsible for **** stats is illogical. Players without bad stats can't be responsible for bad stats. The players with **** stats are responsible for the bad stats.

Wait, it is illogical to say that young players need to learn to play and win? That is not logical? Fascinating. Fielding a team that is comprised of 2 or three rookies (and if not 3 it is a on his last legs Staal), a barely defensive playing DeAngelo does not sound to you like a defense whose struggles should not be surprising? Again, fascinating.

This. Makes. No. Sense. Whatsoever.

Not. To. You.

How would having other rookie defensemen on the team make the veterans worse when they aren't on the ice at the same time? Our top pair of Skjei and Trouba have awful stats why, because they are nervous about being watched by Fox and Lindgren?

Come on. That is not the argument and you fully well know it. You are better than that.

This whole argument is nuts but I think my favorite part is how we are somehow sheltering 2 different D pairings. Fox and Deangelo, 2 right handed defensemen on different pairs, are somehow both being sheltered. The whole sheltering thing is overblown to start with (like we play every game at home with the last change and the other team doesn't have any say on who plays when) but this is a new concept. Fox, who has the 3rd most D zone starts and the best stats is both sheltered and the cause of our bad stats. He is an impressive young man.

Do Fox and DeAngelo play against top lines and take majority of defensive draws? If you believe that a DeAngelo is not being sheltered, that is your issue. Were Fox to start to play Trouba's minutes, his stats would, I believe, drop into the abysmal category.

So you're happy with Quinn because you expected the Rangers to suck and because you think they are working hard, presumably harder than they would for other coaches. Got it.

The team is where I expected them to be or even overachieving. Are there things that one can criticize? Of course. But if they are performing to my expectations or a bit better, then why would I have a negative view overall?

 

[True Blue]

I highly doubt DQ would be coaching the NYR today had JD been apart of the this ridiculous hiring process...

Based on what exactly??

Your opinion? If you do not think that when JD came on, he bought into whatever Gorton's vision was, then I do not know what to tell you . If he was not on board, then he is not here. And when this season passes and Quinn is still the coach, I guess that you can take comfort that JD is quite comfortable with Gorton's choice.

 

[NYR]

Based on what exactly??

Your opinion? If you do not think that when JD came on, he bought into whatever Gorton's vision was, then I do not know what to tell you . If he was not on board, then he is not here. And when this season passes and Quinn is still the coach, I guess that you can take comfort that JD is quite comfortable with Gorton's choice.

Based on the fact that JD wasn't apart or the organization when DQ was hired..

 

[stan the caddy]

If your only choice is an experienced coach, eventually they die out. Then what do you do?

So what? He was not Gorton's choice at all.

You mean the guy that just got fired, with one of the reasons that his players were not taking steps forward? Whose veteran team has all of 4 more wins than Quinn's?

Feels like I just had this very conversation somewhere.....hmmmm......

The greatest coach's in nhl history have for the most part all been fired multiple times. Which is why they don't all die out, lol. Quinn on the other hand probably won't land another gig after this disaster.

 

[NYR]

The greatest coach's in nhl history have for the most part all been fired multiple times. Which is why they don't all die out, lol. Quinn on the other hand probably won't land another gig after this disaster.

He got canned as an assistant in CO then back to the college ranks.
I wonder why lol

 

[NYR]

Laviolette brought 3 different teams to the cup finals......

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Quinn was never fired. He left Colorado to take the lead job at BU.

Hes done some shit that has really pissed me off this year, but lets not make shit up.

 

[NYR]

Oh, my bad.. He wasn't fired technically but he wasn't retained as an assistant or promoted to head coach either.

You think Roy would've kept him around as an assistant or he would've fired him?

It all leads down the same ave and DQ wasn't in their future plans imo

 

[JHS]

He's the same age and has the same experience McDonagh had the year we went to the cup. He's not a rookie or a sophomore or inexperienced.



The Rangers have played 130 games under Quinn, 48 this year. They've played 18 games with three rookies defensemen, all this year, amounting to a little more than a third of the current season. They've played 0 games with three rookies D and a sophomore D. Zero.

You misrepresented the makeup of our D and this has gone from me poking fun at your harmless hyperbole to you doubling down and arguing reality with me. The D is very young, its just not as young as said.

And the second part of your argument, that somehow the youth is responsible for **** stats is illogical. Players without bad stats can't be responsible for bad stats. The players with **** stats are responsible for the bad stats.




This. Makes. No. Sense. Whatsoever.

How would having other rookie defensemen on the team make the veterans worse when they aren't on the ice at the same time? Our top pair of Skjei and Trouba have awful stats why, because they are nervous about being watched by Fox and Lindgren?

This whole argument is nuts but I think my favorite part is how we are somehow sheltering 2 different D pairings. Fox and Deangelo, 2 right handed defensemen on different pairs, are somehow both being sheltered. The whole sheltering thing is overblown to start with (like we play every game at home with the last change and the other team doesn't have any say on who plays when) but this is a new concept. Fox, who has the 3rd most D zone starts and the best stats is both sheltered and the cause of our bad stats. He is an impressive young man.



Of course I don't think they are the worst pair, that is the point. They are statistically awful despite not being... you know what never mind.



So you're happy with Quinn because you expected the Rangers to suck and because you think they are working hard, presumably harder than they would for other coaches. Got it.

Absolutely accurate in all possible ways. The main takeaway here is the defensive core will only develop into defensively responsible players if put in a system that requires them to execute defensively. Quinn’s system seems to promote very risky defensive plays because even in tight games we see guys making high risk plays with the puck. Yes the defense contributes a ton offensively( which shows the incredible skill this group has) but it’s also directly because Quinn’s system prioritizes that style of play.

The team defense begins with the coach reigning in the wild and reckless offensive minded talent most guys have used to get to the NHL. At higher level hockey, defense is what needs to be taught way more than offense. My concern all along is I just don’t get a sense that this staff promotes a defensive mindset and, over the course of a players development, that could be very problematic.

 

[Athor]

They give up 40 SOG nearly every game and it's due to the most fundamental mistakes.
At what point do you say..OK, this isn't working.
What do we have to change??

As far as young players? It's all about managing endurance over an 82 game + playoffs schedule.

Example, Torts: He brings the heat when he can but also can have his team sit back on a lead when they're tired or on a back to back.

Play the cards you're dealt IMO..

You're exaggerating. They have cut down the shots against considerably compared to the beginning of the season. The changes have been happening right in front of us. I'm not sure how you expect them to manage endurance when they're barely keeping up already. Torts' entire system is based off collapsing towards the slot and shot blocking. His team is sitting back the entire game.