Rumor: David Jiricek available

[Digitalbooya]

The goal is still a 1-for-1, so the value difference is "somebody else". There's really not much in the way of further productive discussion.

Okay, let’s assume you reject the trade and it doesn’t happen. What’s the value difference between Ohgren/Heidt and Jiricek?

 

[AKL]

Well it's not like it's new information that those are the areas he needs work on - everyone knew that when he was drafted and he still was a blue chip prospect

Yeah but the problem is the "hasn't improved in 2.5 years" part. Most players do make improvements in 2.5 years, especially the high end prospects with access to NHL/AHL resources and facilities. The fact that he isn't is concerning, and is 98% likely to be the reason he's even available in the first place, because Waddell and co didn't draft him and aren't convinced he will improve.

 

[Viqsi]

Okay, let’s assume you reject the trade and it doesn’t happen. What’s the value difference between Ohgren/Heidt and Jiricek?

It's still "somebody else". All trades are needs-based, so Jiricek's value to the Jackets remains Jiricek's value to the Jackets regardless; there's no "value conversion" to speak of. We don't have a significant need for More Picks, or prospects in other positions. What we need and can spare Jiricek for is, basically, a Jiricek. If we're not getting a Jiricek, what remains is basically minmaxing as far as possible. If Ohgren is the centerpiece, then what makes it work for us amounts to y'all overpaying even more.

 

[AKL]

If Ohgren is the centerpiece, then what makes it work for us amounts to y'all overpaying even more.

We're so close to getting there I can feel it

 

[ColumbusTrill]

Yeah but the problem is the "hasn't improved in 2.5 years" part. Most players do make improvements in 2.5 years, especially the high end prospects with access to NHL/AHL resources and facilities. The fact that he isn't is concerning, and is 98% likely to be the reason he's even available in the first place, because Waddell and co didn't draft him and aren't convinced he will improve.

Not all development is linear. We've seen Sillinger and KJ both make significant improvements to their skating and strength years after they were drafted. Both made these improvements after disappointing 2nd pro seasons, which is right where Jiricek is now. They're each having career years. Jiricek might be getting that wakeup call now

This is why I don't want to rush to trade him. He fits exactly what we need long term

 

[Viqsi]

We're so close to getting there I can feel it

Well, I could have just gone with saying something like "Ohgren and your next three 1sts", but I've already had one post taken well out of context in this thread and gotten beaten over the head with it, and I'd really rather not repeat the experience.

 

[AKL]

Not all development is linear. We've seen Sillinger and KJ both make significant improvements to their skating and strength years after they were drafted. Both made these improvements after disappointing 2nd pro seasons, which is right where Jiricek is now.

This is why I don't want to rush to trade him. He fits exactly what we need long term

I understand it from your perspective. For your sake I hope your GM agrees. The reports we're hearing the last week tell us maybe he doesn't.

Well, I could have just gone with saying something like "Ohgren and your next three 1sts", but I've already had one post taken well out of context in this thread and gotten beaten over the head with it, and I'd really rather not repeat the experience.

I think you may not know what context means.

@Digitalbooya I got your answer for you though.

 

[Viqsi]

@Digitalbooya I got your answer for you though.

Holy f***, hon.

The point is that there's not a set value. I was being sarcastic and coming up with something nonsensical. It's "hand over as much as you can possibly stand, because we're already not getting what we actually need so all that's left is to take you for everything you've got."

 

[Digitalbooya]

It's still "somebody else". All trades are needs-based, so Jiricek's value to the Jackets remains Jiricek's value to the Jackets regardless; there's no "value conversion" to speak of. We don't have a significant need for More Picks, or prospects in other positions. What we need and can spare Jiricek for is, basically, a Jiricek. If we're not getting a Jiricek, what remains is basically minmaxing as far as possible. If Ohgren is the centerpiece, then what makes it work for us amounts to y'all overpaying even more.

Okay. Let’s try a different route. If you were to place a number value between 0 and 100 for both Jiricek and Ohgren, what would those number values be?

 

[AKL]

The point is that there's not a set value. I was being sarcastic and coming up with something nonsensical. It's "hand over as much as you can possibly stand, because we're already not getting what we actually need so all that's left is to take you for everything you've got."

Never mind @Digitalbooya, we're still incapable of answering the question, it seems.

 

[Viqsi]

Okay. Let’s try a different route. If you were to place a number value between 0 and 100 for both Jiricek and Ohgren, what would those number values be?

Impossible to answer. You are attempting to assert some kind of "objective value". No such thing exists or can exist between NHL trade assets because they are not fungible. There is no "twenty 4th round picks equals a 1st round pick".

 

[Digitalbooya]

Impossible to answer. You are attempting to assert some kind of "objective value". No such thing exists or can exist between NHL trade assets because they are not fungible. There is no "twenty 4th round picks equals a 1st round pick".

Okay, I’m going to try a different route.

Which has more value in a vacuum:
Ohgren+Heidt+1st or Jiricek?

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Impossible to answer. You are attempting to assert some kind of "objective value". No such thing exists or can exist between NHL trade assets because they are not fungible. There is no "twenty 4th round picks equals a 1st round pick".

Maybe, but it's actually the kind of thing you have to do to figure out a trade, so it's not really a bad starting point.

 

[Viqsi]

Okay, I’m going to try a different route.

Which has more value in a vacuum:
Ohgren+Heidt+1st or Jiricek?

Again, impossible to answer. You're still trying to assert some kind of "objective value".

I'd try suggesting what the most common consensus reply might probably be if you asked all 32 teams which they'd pick, but the way this conversation is going I expect y'all would take that, run with it, and insist that that's the entirety of what I said and then proceed to repeatedly mock me for it.

 

[Crede777]

Okay, I’m going to try a different route.

Which has more value in a vacuum:
Ohgren+Heidt+1st or Jiricek?

Ohgren + Heidt + 1st has more value in a vacuum. But this trade isn't happening in a vacuum. The return for the Jackets needs to be a single piece of equal value to Jiricek and if such a piece is not available Jackets need to stop fielding offers for him and keep him for the time being.

 

[Viqsi]

Maybe, but it's actually the kind of thing you have to do to figure out a trade, so it's not really a bad starting point.

The starting point to figure out a trade is to figure out the needs of each team involved, how strong those needs are, and how likely one can adequately meet those needs in the marketplace as it stands at that very moment.

 

[AKL]

The return for the Jackets needs to be a single piece of equal value to Jiricek and if such a piece is not available Jackets need to stop fielding offers for him and keep him for the time being.

What if it isn't and they don't?

 

[Viqsi]

What if it isn't and they don't?

Then Waddell sees the Jackets' needs differently, potentially due to having insider info that none of us here are privy to. But as that's not info we're privy to - and said info's existence is merely hypothetical to begin with - you're not going to get a commitment to any other answer.

 

[Digitalbooya]

Ohgren + Heidt + 1st has more value in a vacuum. But this trade isn't happening in a vacuum. The return for the Jackets needs to be a single piece of equal value to Jiricek and if such a piece is not available Jackets need to stop fielding offers for him and keep him for the time being.

I’m at the point that I can’t even determine what the value is. I’ve got him as less than Yurov/Buium but more than Ohgren. Wallstedt is possibly the closest value, but Jackets fans don’t want him and Wild fans don’t want to trade him. Who exactly is your 1-for-1 equivalent? Maybe I can talk to fans of that team to get the value difference between their prospect and Ohgren.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Ohgren + Heidt + 1st has more value in a vacuum. But this trade isn't happening in a vacuum. The return for the Jackets needs to be a single piece of equal value to Jiricek and if such a piece is not available Jackets need to stop fielding offers for him and keep him for the time being.

There are a few things that I've felt that my team's GM needed to do or not do that did not come to fruition.

Fair or not, there are dozens of former top 10 picks that don't have rumor threads going and right or wrong, I don't think your guy fielding offers on a prospect on a whim.

 

[AKL]

Then Waddell sees the Jackets' needs differently, potentially due to having insider info that none of us here are privy to. But as that's not info we're privy to - and said info's existence is merely hypothetical to begin with - you're not going to get a commitment to any other answer.

We all know how good you are at not answering the actual question being asked, I'm begging you to stop showing off. That's why I asked the guy who did finally give an actual answer.

 

[Crede777]

I’m at the point that I can’t even determine what the value is. I’ve got him as less than Yurov/Buium but more than Ohgren. Wallstedt is possibly the closest value, but Jackets fans don’t want him and Wild fans don’t want to trade him. Who exactly is your 1-for-1 equivalent? Maybe I can talk to fans of that team to get the value difference between their prospect and Ohgren.

The one for one equivalent would be Yurov.

 

[AKL]

Let's not forget we also have reports that say they're open to taking packages for prospects+, and we don't have any reports saying they're only looking for 1 for 1 deals.

 

[Viqsi]

The one for one equivalent would be Yurov.

...and now I'm going to sit back and watch the outrage explode over How Dare You Mention That Name.

 

[Crede777]

There are a few things that I've felt that my team's GM needed to do or not do that did not come to fruition.

Fair or not, there are dozens of former top 10 picks that don't have rumor threads going and right or wrong, I don't think you're guy fielding offers on a prospect on a whim.

They're fielding offers on him because they sent him down and presumably he told them he'd like a change of scenery and Waddell said he'd look. So Waddell's looking. If the trade isn't there, well they looked, sorry.