Dave Hakstol Part V

[Hollywood Cannon]

But in year 2 the team wasn't ready to compete, Hakstol or no Hakstol, so firing him then wouldn't have made the same impact. It's only recently that the roster is shaping up into a legit one. So long as the players were still progressing, no real harm was being done by this idiot coach, even if he wasn't using them the way he should. They still continued to improve on their own, so waiting was still possible and harmless. The mediocrity was expected no matter who the coach was while the roster was being rebuilt, so there was no rush to make the inevitable change.

(again, keep in mind I'm strictly talking within this hypothetical, not saying what I would have done or agree with)

At face value, sure that is all fair.

But there is collateral damage being done with the fan base and that isn't something that the organization should just sit on their hands about. Action needs to be taken or they risk losing a portion of the fanbase.

This was the year the team was and is supposed to make the jump. Last April was the time to change the coach if you (meaning the front office) truly didn't believe that Hakstol was the answer in order to compete legitimately in the 2018-19 season.

Instead here we are in the 2018-19 season where Hextall has said himself he expects the team to make noise with the same coach doing the same thing that's been done the last few years. That's an indictment on Hextall. It doesn't seem like they are just keeping the coach around because "what difference does it make?"

 

[Beef Invictus]

At face value, sure that is all fair.

But there is collateral damage being done with the fan base and that isn't something that the organization should just sit on their hands about. Action needs to be taken or they risk losing a portion of the fanbase.

This was the year the team was and is supposed to make the jump. Last April was the time to change the coach if you (meaning the front office) truly didn't believe that Hakstol was the answer in order to compete legitimately in the 2018-19 season. Instead here we are in the 2018-19 season where Hextall has said himself he expects the team to make noise with the same coach doing the same thing that's been done the last few years. That's an indictment on Hextall. It doesn't seem like they are just keeping the coach around because "what difference does it make?"

And even if one can be lenient on keeping Hakstol, it is f***ing inexcusable for Lappy to remain. That's absolutely damning.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

A) Make a list of the teams that emphasize low scoring chances in favor of high scoring chances. It's a college system because it works against college goalies (though he never won with good rosters, so arguably it didn't work there either), but this is the NHL with NHL goalies.

B and C) Yeah, if you choose to broadly misread so you can conflate the two coaches because you enjoy contrarianism, I guess you could presume the list of complaints you provided is identical to our complaints. Fans don't complain about the same things. If you pay attention, you'll find unique issues. The complaints about Berube differed from the complaints about Lavi, the complaints about Lavi differed from complaints about Stevens. The complaints about Hakstol are different too.


One of the major, fundamental complaints with Hakstol's system relates to the heavy emphasis on perimeter shots. Where are the complaints about Q doing the same thing? You have seen the heat maps comparing our shooting location to other teams. You described it as jarring. So I know you accept it occurs.

These coaches are not equivalent and your pretending that they are is laughable. I have no idea why you're so deeply opposed to getting rid of Hak when better options present themselves. Deadhead already tried to pull the "But they're just the same" garbage with Trotz and I shredded him.

I’m not pretending they are equivalent coaches. I said I think Quenneville is better. But the fan complaints are so similar. System doesn’t work in today’s NHL. Not aggressive enough. Not enough energy. Plays favorites with vets over “better” players. If you can’t see the similarities you’re being obtuse. If you’re going to hire a new coach, & think the Flyers need to play a more modern uptempo game that doesn’t play favorites with vets, why would you hire Quenneville when the complaints about him are so similar? Because his antiquated system is preferable to Hak’s? Seems dumb to settle for another antiquated system just because you think it isn’t as antiquated as Hakstol’s. And is Hak’s even less antiquated? Philly scored 251 goals to Chicago’s 229 last season, & finished with a .598 points % vs Chi’s .463%.

If you’re going to fire Hak, shouldn’t those people falling head over heels for Q be wanting someone more modern & different than Hak? For all the complaints about “Hakshell,” Q plays a more boring, more defensive system.

 

[Striiker]

At face value, sure that is all fair.

But there is collateral damage being done with the fan base and that isn't something that the organization should just sit on their hands about. Action needs to be taken or they risk losing a portion of the fanbase.

This was the year the team was and is supposed to make the jump. Last April was the time to change the coach if you (meaning the front office) truly didn't believe that Hakstol was the answer in order to compete legitimately in the 2018-19 season.

Instead here we are in the 2018-19 season where Hextall has said himself he expects the team to make noise with the same coach doing the same thing that's been done the last few years. That's an indictment on Hextall. It doesn't seem like they are just keeping the coach around because "what difference does it make?"

Aha, but that damage was negated by brilliantly creating a mascot to gain new gullible fans!

But seriously, I doubt there will be any lasting damage. Angry fans will come back when the team is successful again, plus the casual fans who just don't care or pay attention when they suck.

And he probably expects the team to start looking like it will compete, but not actually do so just yet (as in, the forwards and defensemen play like they would be able to compete). That way he knows he really is down to his last two problems, coaching and goaltending. Like I said, changing the coach doesn't really solve the problem if the goaltending is still f***ed, which was obvious from the start, so keeping the idiot around until that problem has a solution isn't really making much of a difference.

Regardless, you get my point. This was just a hypothetical I was thinking about a while ago when trying to figure out if there was any possible way he could realize Hak was a problem but still keep him around this long. It kinda makes sense, but I guess we'll see what happens after this year. There was just too much that contradicted when looking at what Hakstol does and what Hextall does. Something if off here...

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

And even if one can be lenient on keeping Hakstol, it is ****ing inexcusable for Lappy to remain. That's absolutely damning.

Even if he isn't actually responsible for the PK, it's 2018 - if you need a "babysitter" to act as a go-between for the players and head coach, you have the wrong ****ing head coach. We have the wrong ****ing head coach.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I’m not pretending they are equivalent coaches. I said I think Quenneville is better. But the fan complaints are so similar. System doesn’t work in today’s NHL. Not aggressive enough. Not enough energy. Plays favorites with vets over “better” players. If you can’t see the similarities you’re being obtuse. If you’re going to hire a new coach, & think the Flyers need to play a more modern uptempo game that doesn’t play favorites with vets, why would you hire Quenneville when the complaints about him are so similar? Because his antiquated system is preferable to Hak’s? Seems dumb to settle for another antiquated system just because you think it isn’t as antiquated as Hakstol’s. And is Hak’s even less antiquated? Philly scored 251 goals to Chicago’s 229 last season, & finished with a .598 points % vs Chi’s .463%.

If you’re going to fire Hak, shouldn’t those people falling head over heels for Q be wanting someone more modern & different than Hak? For all the complaints about “Hakshell,” Q plays a more boring, more defensive system.

You're ignoring the specifics of the complaints to pretend they're the same. That is obtuse.


It's telling how you have to ignore the shot quality complaints and how those don't exist against Q, but are a MAJOR complaint against Hak.


The problem isn't that Hak's system is antiquated. There is simply never a period in NHL history where it should be preferred. There has never been a period in over a century where shooting from further away is better. Nobody complains Hak is antiquated. They complain that his system is simply trash. It isn't a system that once worked and the game is passing by. That, right there, is a major difference you're laboring to ignore.

 

[tucson83]

These coaches are not equivalent and your pretending that they are is laughable. I have no idea why you're so deeply opposed to getting rid of Hak when better options present themselves. Deadhead already tried to pull the "But they're just the same" garbage with Trotz and I shredded him.

it's not even us, it's the players as well, they have problems with him as well, i dont know how hak fans can tell players that it's ok for them to deal with him.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Even if he isn't actually responsible for the PK, it's 2018 - if you need a "babysitter" to act as a go-between for the players and head coach, you have the wrong ****ing head coach. We have the wrong ****ing head coach.

There's just no excuse for this PK. Everyone involved is deeply culpable. It's unacceptable.

 

[Tripod]

Yeah I have mentioned "self preservation" for awhile when it comes to Hextall.

He likely only gets 1 more coaching hire, so delaying it delays his own clock from starting to tick.

 

[Striiker]

Yeah I have mentioned "self preservation" for awhile when it comes to Hextall.

He likely only gets 1 more coaching hire, so delaying it delays his own clock from starting to tick.

Hopefully that's it.

His next coaching hire will decide his legacy as GM. Better be a good one and hopefully it's in sync with his drafting and roster building.

 

[TCTC]

Yeah I have mentioned "self preservation" for awhile when it comes to Hextall.

He likely only gets 1 more coaching hire, so delaying it delays his own clock from starting to tick.

That's the worst kind of GM. I mean, if that's the case he should be fired immediately.

Say what you want about Holmgren, but he wasn't afraid to face the consequences and did what he thought was best for the team/franchise.

 

[Tripod]

There's just no excuse for this PK. Everyone involved is deeply culpable. It's unacceptable.

100% agreed. At least with that Hextall can easily say that they gave it every chance to improve, and did not.

But in reality, decision time is next summer for Hak...re-sign, fire, or do nothing and have a lame duck coach(which rarely happens). So Hex might just think it's best to delay the Lappy firing and do everything at once.

Who the hell knows.

 

[Striiker]

100% agreed. At least with that Hextall can easily say that they gave it every chance to improve, and did not.

But in reality, decision time is next summer for Hak...re-sign, fire, or do nothing and have a lame duck coach(which rarely happens). So Hex might just think it's best to delay the Lappy firing and do everything at once.

Who the hell knows.

Yeah, no point in hiring a new PK coach that might be gone when a new head coach comes in. Makes more sense to clean house at once.

 

[Lindberg]

That's the worst kind of GM. I mean, if that's the case he should be fired immediately.

Say what you want about Holmgren, but he wasn't afraid to face the consequences and did what he thought was best for the team/franchise.

Yep. Why should Hextall be that concerned about his job? He's already wealthy. His aim should be winning not being afraid of consequences.

 

[Lindberg]

Yeah, no point in hiring a new PK coach that might be gone when a new head coach comes in. Makes more sense to clean house at once.

Nope.

 

[Striiker]

Yep. Why should Hextall be that concerned about his job? He's already wealthy. His aim should be winning not being afraid of consequences.

Keeping his job is how he continues to guide this team towards winning.

 

[Lindberg]

Keeping his job is how he continues to guide this team towards winning.

Must be a 30 year plan then. He sold the organization on the retool/rebuild (which he should have traded Simmonds). Coach Q is the obvious choice here since Hextall can't be trusted to make solid decisions when it comes to his coaches. His loyalty to Lappy and his son playing for Hakstol has sold that to me.

 

[tucson83]

If you’re going to fire Hak, shouldn’t those people falling head over heels for Q be wanting someone more modern & different than Hak? For all the complaints about “Hakshell,” Q plays a more boring, more defensive system.

we dont care as long they are buying in and want to play to win which i dont see it when they are playing for hak, there's no jump or energy. they need a new coach with a new structure, i dont care if it's boring and defensive as long it wins us championships.

 

[Striiker]

Must be a 30 year plan then. He sold the organization on the retool/rebuild (which he should have traded Simmonds). Coach Q is the obvious choice here since Hextall can't be trusted to make solid decisions when it comes to his coaches. His loyalty to Lappy and his son playing for Hakstol has sold that to me.

Except the accusation that it's loyalty is just a guess and not based on anything concrete. Same as saying it's ego or the other baseless guesses getting thrown around.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

You're ignoring the specifics of the complaints to pretend they're the same. That is obtuse.


It's telling how you have to ignore the shot quality complaints and how those don't exist against Q, but are a MAJOR complaint against Hak.


The problem isn't that Hak's system is antiquated. There is simply never a period in NHL history where it should be preferred. There has never been a period in over a century where shooting from further away is better. Nobody complains Hak is antiquated. They complain that his system is simply trash. It isn't a system that once worked and the game is passing by. That, right there, is a major difference you're laboring to ignore.

Let me simplify my point for you since you’re getting hung up on the differences of two systems the respective fanbases are complaining aren’t effective (regardless of whether they were effective in the past):

Do you want a modern, uptempo coach, or not? If not, I can see the Quenneville love. But I thought most of you wanted more energy, more attacking, more uptempo. If so, the ridiculous love for Q today makes no sense.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Yeah, no point in hiring a new PK coach that might be gone when a new head coach comes in. Makes more sense to clean house at once.

The PK coach might be the new coach. Just wait for it.

 

[Striiker]

The PK coach might be the new coach. Just wait for it.

Nah. Not worried about that at all.

 

[Lindberg]

Except the accusation that it's loyalty is just a guess and not based on anything concrete. Same as saying it's ego or the other baseless guesses getting thrown around.

What else is it? The guy is inept and the PK has been a failure for years. The old saying "where there is smoke, there is fire" is true here.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Let me simplify my point for you since you’re getting hung up on the differences of two systems the respective fanbases are complaining aren’t effective (regardless of whether they were effective in the past):

Do you want a modern, uptempo coach, or not? If not, I can see the Quenneville love. But I thought most of you wanted more energy, more attacking, more uptempo. If so, the ridiculous love for Q today makes no sense.

There isn't "ridiculous love." There are people saying he'd be better than Hakstol, which is true and is badly needed. This coach has been a failure. He isn't going to win. A sign that the GM has the basic competence to recognize that and the courage to make an easy improvement would be very welcome, considering the atrocious handling of coaches so far.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

we dont care as long they are buying in and want to play to win which i dont see it when they are playing for hak, there's no jump or energy. they need a new coach with a new structure, i dont care if it's boring and defensive as long it wins us championships.

A lot of the Hak haters seemed to care.

Me, personally, I don’t. I think their personnel is better suited for a more conservative neutral zone game.
Heck, I suggested Hitchcock.