Datsyuk - Bergeron - Hossa vs Kariya - Kopitar - Guy Lafleur

[MichaelFarrell]

Im shocked the pool is close. 1st option all the way. Not close for me.

 

[Kingfan1967]

I'll go with the trio that still has an active player. Those other 5 are out of playing shape

 

[norrisnick]

I'm glad and a little surprised to see the relevance for Kariya

what i came to say its going to look like a hot take now, I was going to say i feel like Kariya stylistically is a poor fit for this matchup which is an issue for team 2

If Kariya can do what he did next to Steve Rucchin, I think he'd be more than fine next to Kopitar.

 

[Coffees]

I think people are missing the plot here.

Great lines tend to be balanced in skill sets.

Thank you

Everyone in this poll is a great player.

But only one of them was the best player in the league for several years. Lafleur is just in a different class. Insane that the second group is losing.

Is this a good poll though?

 

[Coffees]

@MS Please chime in on this debate

 

[authentic]

Bergeron outplayed Kopitar in just about every matchup they've had on the ice too and I would say Kopitar is a little better at producing points.

This is what leads me to believe these players are still underrated compared to elite offensive players

It depends of the team

On the Habs, I'd pick Datsyuk because our center depth is suspect, but on a team like Edmonton, I'd go Kariya I think

Kariya, in his prime, was incredible

But as for the poll, Lafleur is so far ahead everyone else that it doesn't matter in the end

Kariya on a line with McDavid would be a thing of beauty. He had the dynamic speed, smarts and vision to keep up with McDavid and was also an elite finisher.

 

[authentic]

Im shocked the pool is close. 1st option all the way. Not close for me.

A give and go with Kariya and Lafleur would be nearly like having two McDavid’s on the ice, with Kopitar in the middle to cover for them. To say it’s not close is madness.

 

[Beau Knows]

Im shocked the pool is close. 1st option all the way. Not close for me.

Why is it shocking?

The best player in the poll is Lafleur by a mile. Meanwhile Hossa, Kopitar, Bergeron, Kariya and Datsyuk are all kind of near the same level - good players, but Lafleur is hockey god.

Not to mention the 1st option is arguably made up of redundant players. Yeah all three can put up points too, but they lack the game breaking skills that line 2 brings. Option 2 seems much more balanced to me.

 

[MichaelFarrell]

Why is it shocking?

The best player in the poll is Lafleur by a mile. Meanwhile Hossa, Kopitar, Bergeron, Kariya and Datsyuk are all kind of near the same level - good players, but Lafleur is hockey god.

Not to mention the 1st option is arguably made up of redundant players. Yeah all three can put up points too, but they lack the game breaking skills that line 2 brings. Option 2 seems much more balanced to me.

We are going to strongly disagree on this one. I’m of the opinion that Datsyuk is the best player listed among those players for starters. You could argue that Bergeron is number one. Too me, the best two players on that list are on the first team.

Hossa vs Kariya is honestly a coin flip for me maybe. Nobody is taking the puck away from that first team. They have an unbelievable mix of super elite defensive games along with immense offensive ability. To me, it’s not close. At all.

 

[Beau Knows]

We are going to strongly disagree on this one. I’m of the opinion that Datsyuk is the best player listed among those players for starters.

That's going to be a hard case to make.

Lafleur Hart record:
1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 14,

Datsyuk Hart record:
3, 9, 10, 14, 20, 21

Throw in Lafluer's Conn Smythe and 6 first team all-star selections and it's clear which player dominated their time and which player was more of a top 10 of his era kind of player.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Yeah all three can put up points too, but they lack the game breaking skills that line 2 brings

From 2002/03 to 2015/16 Datsyuk is 8th in points, won 3 Selke's, finished top 3 three other times, and has another top 5 finish. In the playoffs, aside from 2008/09 when he was hurt, he had 67 points in 63 games from 2006 to 2011 which for the time was excellent production.

You're underselling this guy like crazy. I never watched Lafleur and his Hart record speaks for itself regardless of the era, but Datsuk-Bergeron-Hossa would have no issue scoring and no issue stifling the other line enough to win that matchup. It's what they excelled at for a huge chunk of their careers.

 

[norrisnick]

From 2002/03 to 2015/16 Datsyuk is 8th in points, won 3 Selke's, finished top 3 three other times, and has another top 5 finish. In the playoffs, aside from 2008/09 when he was hurt, he had 67 points in 63 games from 2006 to 2011 which for the time was excellent production.

You're underselling this guy like crazy. I never watched Lafleur and his Hart record speaks for itself regardless of the era, but Datsuk-Bergeron-Hossa would have no issue scoring and no issue stifling the other line enough to win that matchup. It's what they excelled at for a huge chunk of their careers.

From '06-'07 through now, Kopitar is 5th in points, won 2 Selkes with 5 other top 5 finishes, and led the playoffs in scoring for two Cup runs. He's led his team in scoring 15 out of his 18 seasons which I believe ties Gordie Howe for 2nd all time behind only Gretzky for having led his team in scoring the most often. Kopitar is a bigger, stronger, healthier Datsyuk with less flash but no less substance.

 

[Beau Knows]

From 2002/03 to 2015/16 Datsyuk is 8th in points, won 3 Selke's, finished top 3 three other times, and has another top 5 finish. In the playoffs, aside from 2008/09 when he was hurt, he had 67 points in 63 games from 2006 to 2011 which for the time was excellent production.

You're underselling this guy like crazy. I never watched Lafleur and his Hart record speaks for itself regardless of the era, but Datsuk-Bergeron-Hossa would have no issue scoring and no issue stifling the other line enough to win that matchup. It's what they excelled at for a huge chunk of their careers.

I'm not underselling him at all when comparing him to Guy Lafleur. The guy won 3 scoring titles in a row. The rest of the poll combined for 0.

He led the playoffs in scoring 3 years in a row too, Dastyuk didn't do it once.

If we're going to pick a few years run of playoff stats to paint the picture, Lafleur managed 106 points in 69 games in a 5 year span.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I’m of the opinion that Datsyuk is the best player listed among those players for starters.

You’re welcome to your opinion, but Datsyuk isn’t close to Lafleur for most people or by most metrics outside takeaways.

Lafleur is by far the best player on these two lines, and gets to play with a two-way center (Kopitar) that imo is better than his real life guy (Lemaire) and he gets to create with a dynamic all around offensive left winger in Kariya that is better than any he had too.

The second line is constructed very well in comparison to the first line with Datsyuk out of position and Bergeron’s relatively weak offence.

 

[x Tame Impala]

From '06-'07 through now, Kopitar is 5th in points, won 2 Selkes with 5 other top 5 finishes, and led the playoffs in scoring for two Cup runs. He's led his team in scoring 15 out of his 18 seasons which I believe ties Gordie Howe for 2nd all time behind only Gretzky for having led his team in scoring the most often. Kopitar is a bigger, stronger, healthier Datsyuk with less flash but no less substance.

Kopitar is phenomenal, he'd just be the only shutdown presence on his line. How much defense are Kariya and Lafleur providing against a puck possession monster line like Dats, Bergy, and Hossa? All three of which were at times the best or one of the best shutdown forwards at their position while being all star caliber forwards.

I'm not underselling him at all when comparing him to Guy Lafleur. The guy won 3 scoring titles in a row. The rest of the poll combined for 0.

He led the playoffs in scoring 3 years in a row too, Dastyuk didn't do it once.

If we're going to pick a few years run of playoff stats to paint the picture, Lafleur managed 106 points in 69 games in a 5 year span.

It's reasonable to compare Lafleur to someone like Crosby right? Crosby had something like 8 points in 13 Finals games against Detroit and I don't think the Pens win that Cup in 08 if Datsyuk is healthy. McDavid had 11 points in 7 games vs Florida but 0 in games 6 & 7. I won't take away McDavid's 8 points in games 4 & 5 but aside from those two he had 3pts in 5 games and his team lost. Point being these elite forwards get shutdown in the playoffs, it isn't otherworldly to see.

Yes Lafleur has the most offensive talent of the group but all I was saying is Datsyuk isn't some middle 6er here. From the 07/08 season to the 08/09 season he was only behind Crosby, Ovechkin, and Malkin for scoring while also winning 2 Selke's. That's a unicorn of a player. It's not like we're talking about Ryan Kesler or Ryan O'Rielly. Datsyuk was an elite offensive player as well.

Line 1 was elite at defense and very, very, good at offense. Line 2 is weak defensively outside of Kopitar and elite offensively.

 

[norrisnick]

Kopitar is phenomenal, he'd just be the only shutdown presence on his line. How much defense are Kariya and Lafleur providing against a puck possession monster line like Dats, Bergy, and Hossa? All three of which were at times the best or one of the best shutdown forwards at their position while being all star caliber forwards.

When you've got a guy like Kopitar down the middle you don't need anymore Selke guys on the line. Be like stacking three playmakers or three shooters on a line. You can't have everyone wanting to do the same thing.

 

[Beau Knows]

Yes Lafleur has the most offensive talent of the group but all I was saying is Datsyuk isn't some middle 6er here.

I didn't say he was. I said he wasn't a gamebreaker in that aspect. And in comparison to Lafleur he certainly wasn't.

 

[x Tame Impala]

When you've got a guy like Kopitar down the middle you don't need anymore Selke guys on the line. Be like stacking three playmakers or three shooters on a line. You can't have everyone wanting to do the same thing.

On offense yeah that's true but having 3 excellent defensive forwards on a line isn't redundant at all when trying to shut down Line 2 here. Are Kariya and Lafleur going to win battles on the boards are get the puck away from Datsyuk/Hossa? Probably not.

I didn't say he was. I said he wasn't a gamebreaker in that aspect. And in comparison to Lafleur he certainly wasn't.

At his peak he was though. That's my argument. Datsyuk isn't going to win any Ross or Hart trophies against Crosby, Ovechkin, or Malkin healthy and in their primes but he was still an elite producer. Sid and Ovie are top 10 players of all time and Malkin had he had more health probably retires top 15 in scoring. Datsyuk at his best was second only to that group of big 3. Agree to disagree I suppose.

 

[norrisnick]

On offense yeah that's true but having 3 excellent defensive forwards on a line isn't redundant at all when trying to shut down Line 2 here. Are Kariya and Lafleur going to win battles on the boards are get the puck away from Datsyuk/Hossa? Probably not.

Kariya and Lafleur are capable of generating offense without dumping pucks into corners and digging them out. And it's not like they didn't face the strongest defensive players whenever they stepped out on the ice. They're used to it and thrived.

 

[Coffees]

At his peak he was though. That's my argument.

then what if you compare that with Lafleurs peak?

 

[Felidae]

Lafleur is much closer to players like Esposito and Jagr (arguably on their level in terms of peak) than he is to anyone on this poll.

 

[Coffees]

Lafleur is much closer to players like Esposito and Jagr (arguably on their level in terms of peak) than he is to anyone on this poll.

Felidae one of the best hockey minds on these boards

 

[I am not exposed]

Felidae one of the best hockey minds on these boards

Well obviously. He's a Panthers fan.

 

[dukeofjive]

 

[GMR]

Lafleur is easily the best player. Big gulf between him and the others who are closer to each other.

Kariya in today’s league would be a beast. Heck, he was a beast in the DPE. Seems like he’s being dismissed likely because some of the posters never saw him play in his prime.

Outside of recency bias, this shouldn’t be close.