Darren Helm: 0 goals in last 11 games

[Frk It]

Never said that. Thought we could only keep one, until Datsyuk left and it opened room to keep both which was never a bad idea in my eyes. The crowd that thought "doing something stupid" was keeping both is the same crowd that complains about them as soon as they have a cold streak and go completely silent every time they're on a hot streak.

I never thought Abby would get a 7 year deal, but always expected around 4 million. Helm got slightly more than expected but I think everyone knew he'd get 3+ in FA.

It isn't. People love to add up the cap totals of the 'garbage' players to make it seem like a huge cap problem. "omg Miller+Ott+Smith+Howard+Ericsson+Helm+Abby+Sheahan make over 20 million! we could have Crosby and Ovechkin for that money!". Players make money. A player that scores 30+ goals and 60+ points makes over 6 million in this league easy. Add the physical play of Abby and the speed and PK ability of Helm and the value climbs. That 8 million is giving us a lot. Steven Stamkos makes 8.5 and he scored 64 points last season and isn't physical, isn't good defensively, isn't as tenacious and hard-working as Abby and Helm, and if he's injured that's 8.5 million of value lost from Tampa's lineup. With that said.. would I rather have Stamkos? Hell yes. But don't pretend like Helm and Abby are just anchors on this team.

Keeping both at their respective prices is irresponsible in a cap league. I can understand keeping one, but I really don't get the need to keep both when you have to overpay to do so.

Holland has to learn to say no, otherwise we will have both no flexibility in the future and a decent amount of cap tied up in marginal level players for a long period of time.

Also those were things I remember various people saying, not just necessarily you. Except for maybe that last bit. Which yes I would disagree with wholeheartedly.

 

[njx9]

"Why don't you talk about Tatar/Abbie/Larkin/Sheahan before bagging on Helm?!"

Are you people reading, well, anything? Those guys get blasted constantly for being useless offensive players, and one is regularly derided for having one of the worst contracts in hockey. I know it hurts to see Helm get called out for being the mediocre player he's always been and always will be, but let's not act like he's unjustly being called out while other players get a pass when that flies directly in the face of just about every thread on this board.

 

[Heaton]

I continue to think that 8.1 million really isn't a huge number for two hard-working players that should combine for between 50-80 points and 30+ goals each season.

People's bias start to shine through when the team struggles a bit and you immediately get threads blaming the players that are disliked. Helm has been one of our best forwards so far (as sad as it may be).

Vanek was one of our best players, Helm was lucky enough to be on his line. Just like Datsyuk/Z/Larkin were some of our best players and Abdelkader was lucky enough to be on their line.

That doesn't mean they're terrible players, but it does mean that they're replaceable.

 

[Retire91]

You can get combined 50 points of production from players on ELCs. Is 50 points in combined production seriously being offered as defense for 8 million dollars in two lifetime grinders being played in the top 6?

 

[Winger98]

Vanek was one of our best players, Helm was lucky enough to be on his line. Just like Datsyuk/Z/Larkin were some of our best players and Abdelkader was lucky enough to be on their line.

That doesn't mean they're terrible players, but it does mean that they're replaceable.

and for a lot less than $8m.

 

[Dotter]

I think there are plenty of players on the team that aren't performing that need to be called out. Helm is certainly not in that category yet.

 

[Claypool]

I continue to think that 8.1 million really isn't a huge number for two hard-working players that should combine for between 50-80 points and 30+ goals each season.

People's bias start to shine through when the team struggles a bit and you immediately get threads blaming the players that are disliked. Helm has been one of our best forwards so far (as sad as it may be).

You can go through every team and find players who are "overpaid" relative to their on-ice production. You're never going to get every player playing up to their contract at all times, and in many cases people want those players producing more than their worth. It's complete fantasy thinking. They also seem to think certain players shouldn't be brought back because there's always cheaper, better options on the open market or via trade.

Bobby Ryan scores goals just as much as Abdelkader does nowadays and he's being paid $7.25 million for the next six seasons and plays like he doesn't care anymore. See how fun this game is?

 

[Dotter]

I remember back when Bobby Ryan was traded and Detroit fans across the boards stomped and screamed "Holland's inability to make a trade!" when he didn't go after Ryan.

$7.5 million per year now and putting up just a few more points than Abdelkader. Wonder why that is? I mean Bobby Ryan is awesome at $7.5 million, but Abdelkder is a bust?

Grass is greener syndrome.

 

[Frk It]

I remember back when Bobby Ryan was traded and Detroit fans across the boards stomped and screamed "Holland's inability to make a trade!" when he didn't go after Ryan.

$7.5 million per year now and putting up just a few more points than Abdelkader. Wonder why that is? I mean Bobby Ryan is awesome at $7.5 million, but Abdelkder is a bust?

Grass is greener syndrome.

No one thinks present day Bobby Ryan at 7.5 million dollars is awesome.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

I remember back when Bobby Ryan was traded and Detroit fans across the boards stomped and screamed "Holland's inability to make a trade!" when he didn't go after Ryan.

$7.5 million per year now and putting up just a few more points than Abdelkader. Wonder why that is? I mean Bobby Ryan is awesome at $7.5 million, but Abdelkder is a bust?

Grass is greener syndrome.

Except Justin Abdelkader is a 20-30 point player when not being carried by Datsyuk or Zetterberg.

So the Wings are paying 4.25 million a year for the next seven years to a soon to be 30 year old 20-30 point player.

Same goes for Helm.

Two mediocre players that were treated like core players, and now the Wings have zero cap space and no future.

 

[Pavels Dog]

You can get combined 50 points of production from players on ELCs. Is 50 points in combined production seriously being offered as defense for 8 million dollars in two lifetime grinders being played in the top 6?

"can" being the key word there. You might also get 10-20 points of combined production along with terrible defense, no physical presence and rookie mistakes from those ELC players. Helm has been mostly (only?) in the bottom 6 this season and arguably our best forward. I offered 50 points combined as a low-end estimate in a bad year, perhaps at the end of their contracts or so. Realistically they should combine for 60+ easily and closer to 70-80 if the team performs at a decent level. But of course everyone is like "omg 50 points is that your defense".

 

[Dotter]

Except Justin Abdelkader is a 20-30 point player when not being carried by Datsyuk or Zetterberg.

So the Wings are paying 4.25 million a year for the next seven years to a soon to be 30 year old 20-30 point player.

Same goes for Helm.

Two mediocre players that were treated like core players, and now the Wings have zero cap space and no future.

If that's the case, looking at Detroit's entire forward group, Wings must by far have a bottom 5-10 forward group in the entire NHL. I mean nobody is performing without Datsyuk. Nobody.

The entire forward group from top to bottom is slumping without Datsyuk. Interestingly, Wings are tied in points with Tampa Bay.


Also, about your point about Abby not scoring points, he has 2 less points than $7.25 Bobby Ryan, in less games played no less. The same Bobby Ryan that people used to condemn Ken Holland at the stake when "he failed to make a trade" a few years ago for the perceived player to lift the franchise.

Boy do we look stoopid now.

 

[Heaton]

Also, about your point about Abby not scoring points, he has 2 less points than $7.25 Bobby Ryan, in less games played no less. The same Bobby Ryan that people used to condemn Ken Holland at the stake when "he failed to make a trade" a few years ago for the perceived player to lift the franchise.

Boy do we look stoopid now.

Can't say I remember this ever being the case. I remember quite a few of the trade targets, Bobby Ryan wasn't one that I can recall.

 

[Retire91]

You can go through every team and find players who are "overpaid" relative to their on-ice production. You're never going to get every player playing up to their contract at all times, and in many cases people want those players producing more than their worth. It's complete fantasy thinking. They also seem to think certain players shouldn't be brought back because there's always cheaper, better options on the open market or via trade.

Bobby Ryan scores goals just as much as Abdelkader does nowadays and he's being paid $7.25 million for the next six seasons and plays like he doesn't care anymore. See how fun this game is?

Bobby Ryan was signed when he still had great numbers in recent memory not to far back of which included 4 straight 30 goal seasons. Something Abby or Helm have never and will never achieve. Ryan wasn't signed to a lifetime contract knowing he is nothing more than a grinder. Abby and Helm were.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

If that's the case, looking at Detroit's entire forward group, Wings must by far have a bottom 5-10 forward group in the entire NHL. I mean nobody is performing without Datsyuk. Nobody.

The entire forward group from top to bottom is slumping without Datsyuk. Interestingly, Wings are tied in points with Tampa Bay.


Also, about your point about Abby not scoring points, he has 2 less points than $7.25 Bobby Ryan, in less games played no less. The same Bobby Ryan that people used to condemn Ken Holland at the stake when "he failed to make a trade" a few years ago for the perceived player to lift the franchise.

Boy do we look stoopid now.

Ohhh good, the Wings are tied in points with Tampa right now. I'm sure that won't change by March. What a compelling argument that Detroit hasn't handed out numerous atrocious contracts.

As others have already mentioned, Ryan's resume warranted him receiving a big contract. Helm and Gator had done nothing up to that point to deserve the contracts they were given.

PS - The Wings aren't slumping. This is who they are. Datsyuk was the engine of the offense.

The Wings are middling fodder for the elite teams and the Wings spent 75+ million to put that roster together.

 

[Claypool]

Bobby Ryan was signed when he still had great numbers in recent memory not to far back of which included 4 straight 30 goal seasons. Something Abby or Helm have never and will never achieve. Ryan wasn't signed to a lifetime contract knowing he is nothing more than a grinder. Abby and Helm were.

Bobby Ryan signed his extension at the start of the 14-15 season after scoring 23 goals and 48 points the previous year. He would have been a free agent at the end of that season. Ryan got a $2 million raise for basically performing worse. His goal totals the season before that were even worse.

 

[Frk It]

Why exactly are we talking about Bobby Ryan????

 

[Retire91]

"can" being the key word there. You might also get 10-20 points of combined production along with terrible defense, no physical presence and rookie mistakes from those ELC players. Helm has been mostly (only?) in the bottom 6 this season and arguably our best forward. I offered 50 points combined as a low-end estimate in a bad year, perhaps at the end of their contracts or so. Realistically they should combine for 60+ easily and closer to 70-80 if the team performs at a decent level. But of course everyone is like "omg 50 points is that your defense".

I have to admit experiencing some shock that Holland's two cornerstone signings of the offseason combining for 50 points would be considered a success. And this as both players exit their prime and enter 6 and 7 year contracts. But I feel what you meant, didn't mean to blow it out of proportion. For the price and ice time Abby gets he should be responsible for 40-50 points alone.

 

[RedWingsfan55]

3.85m for some speed? We have small undersized speed.

What we lack is goal scoring.

 

[Shaman464]

"can" being the key word there. You might also get 10-20 points of combined production along with terrible defense, no physical presence and rookie mistakes from those ELC players. Helm has been mostly (only?) in the bottom 6 this season and arguably our best forward. I offered 50 points combined as a low-end estimate in a bad year, perhaps at the end of their contracts or so. Realistically they should combine for 60+ easily and closer to 70-80 if the team performs at a decent level. But of course everyone is like "omg 50 points is that your defense".

The problem is that they are being given pay and terms as if they are irreplaceable players. If you want to argue that they are, then please do, but the fact of the matter is that they aren't. If they were being paid that much combined for the next 1-2 seasons, sure that's not great asset management, but it's a storm that can easily be weathered. No, the problem is that they are being paid for unsustainable production for the better part of a decade. Not only does it handcuff the team today, it sets a pretty terrible precedence that mediocre players get sweetheart deals in Detroit.

This speaks to the culture of the Red Wings. It went from gentlemanly to desperate in pretty short order.

 

[njx9]

So we've gone from "why isn't anyone calling out Sheahan/Tatar" to "at least Helm isn't Bobby Ryan"? I feel like these are some really uncompelling arguments for a mediocre forward. They're only slightly topped by "he's been our best forward!" as if that's actually an accomplishment. Which all just comes back to the fact that this thread wouldn't exist if the 'told you so' thread hadn't existed. *shrug*

 

[PuckDynasty]

Well, tonight he was playing with Sheahan and Abdelkader. Not sure what you can expect offensively there.

We all saw how awesome Vanek-Helm-Nyquist played together. That wasn't a fluke or accident. Vanek goes down, Nyquist moves to another line as a result, and here we are. Vanek's injury cost this team many games and I have a feeling that magic will be gone once he comes back.

If your entire offense is based solely on Tomas Vanek, Houston, we have a problem.

 

[Dotter]

So we've gone from "why isn't anyone calling out Sheahan/Tatar" to "at least Helm isn't Bobby Ryan"? I feel like these are some really uncompelling arguments for a mediocre forward. They're only slightly topped by "he's been our best forward!" as if that's actually an accomplishment. Which all just comes back to the fact that this thread wouldn't exist if the 'told you so' thread hadn't existed. *shrug*

Gone are the days when 46 goal scorers 87 point players make $3,475,000 per year. Good times.

 

[Winger98]

We might (big might, this season) get an accumulated production comparable to one better player, but the problem is that they are still two mediocre forwards who don't do the heavy lifting you really need to consistently win in the playoffs. Without those star players for Helm and Gator to compliment, they just aren't hugely useful. And if all we want is that production, we can probably blow $8 million in a couple of rentals every summer, get similar production, but keep long term roster flexibility. Or just promote kids and pocket the cash.

 

[njx9]

Gone are the days when 46 goal scorers 87 point players make $3,475,000 per year. Good times.

That's a bit non-sequitur, don't you think? I'm not aware of anyone who's suggested we should've signed Ovechkin instead of Helm.