CXL - UPDATE 12/9 - Coyotes settle bills after unpaid taxes come to light

[Voight]

This is absolute BS - You can't write off a market when you basically do everything to push away the fans early on.

Whats the excuse for the piss poor attendance then? & early on, Phoenix was actually a decent team with notable stars like Tkachuk + Roenick.

I feel suburbs can work for NFL franchises. The amount of successful NBA/NHL teams located primarily in the suburbs seems quite small. Just look at Ottawa.

It works in the NFL because majority of the games are on Sundays & theres only 8/9 home games a year. Less traffic, most people have the day off etc.

In any major city driving to the suburbs in rush hour to get to a 7pm game would be a hassle.

 

[Ciao]

I think Glendale is tired of being walked on.

No matter what else happens with the Coyotes, they're done -- and the sooner the better!

 

[OG6ix]

That might be true for the attendance figures, but have you seen the TV ratings? They simply don't have enough hardcore hockey fans in the area.

Again - do you expect people to watch the team on TV? They have been bad for almost two decades, always a threat to move etc. You are expecting good local ratings and attendance? Come on now.

 

[OG6ix]

Could we please dispense with the false narrative that Gary Bettman is the ultimate arbiter of where NHL franchises are located. That just isn't true. It's his bosses (the owners collectively known as the Board of Governors) who decide where teams play & who gets in. Bettman simply is the guy who makes that vision a reality

It's the Rick Westheads of the world who create this perception. The Winnipeg Jets were going to move Minnesota but the deal got struck down.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

Again - do you expect people to watch the team on TV? They have been bad for almost two decades, always a threat to move etc. You are expecting good local ratings and attendance? Come on now.

If I were a Coyotes fan I would have long since given up by now. All this back-and-forth, for THIS long? This may be even worse than what Thrashers fans went through, and if the Coyotes DO eventually leave it will have ended up being FAR, FAR worse than Atlanta.

All the Arizona fans on this site are far, far better hockey fans than anyone realizes. Those people don't deserve this torture. This feels like going through ling chi and the slicing will either continue until death (if Tempe fails) or be abandoned in a few months and healing attempted (if Tempe goes through).

 

[OG6ix]

My recollection is that there were problems at the time that the new Glendale arena would solve.

Nope - Richard Burke wanted the team in scottsdale (los arcos I believe) and basically said that the team moving to Glendale will be a bust and it turns out it was (Arena, and West Gate bankrupt lol). The real issue at the time was the Arena was Basketball specific.

 

[OG6ix]

If I were a Coyotes fan I would have long since given up by now. All this back-and-forth, for THIS long? This may be even worse than what Thrashers fans went through, and if the Coyotes DO eventually leave it will have ended up being FAR, FAR worse than Atlanta.

All the Arizona fans on this site are far, far better hockey fans than anyone realizes. Those people don't deserve this torture. This feels like going through ling chi and the slicing will either continue until death (if Tempe fails) or be abandoned in a few months and healing attempted (if Tempe goes through).

Agreed - Coyotes fans are the best fans in sport who can deal with this? Reminds me of the expos.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

Agreed - Coyotes fans are the best fans in sport who can deal with this? Reminds me of the expos.

Very good comparison, another team that basically held the fanbases' collective face to the back seat of a NYC cab and ordered them to lick.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Again - do you expect people to watch the team on TV? They have been bad for almost two decades, always a threat to move etc. You are expecting good local ratings and attendance? Come on now.

Seriously? Do you watch the Leafs on TV only when they're winning? Even if you personally don't, there's a ton of fans in the GTA who will watch come hell or high water. Same with the Rangers, etc....hell look at Buffalo's TV ratings, usually the best in the NHL & you can't tell me those fans don't have a reason to tune out.

This is more than just a product on the ice problem. I've posted before how the Southwest USA has an extremely fickle sports fandom. After living out west for 15 years, I've experienced it first hand. Casual fans from that region simply do not care enough unless the team is seriously contending. The weather in places like San Diego, LA, & Phoenix leads people to live an outdoor centric lifestyle where pro sports don't have the allure that they do in more traditional markets on the east coast. But that's a completely separate discussion.

 

[Llama19]

 

[Melrose Munch]

I feel suburbs can work for NFL franchises. The amount of successful NBA/NHL teams located primarily in the suburbs seems quite small. Just look at Ottawa.

And that's a Canadian team team too. The suburbs are just not a good idea.

The Coyotes were so fine from 1996-2002, that the owner was literally begging places to build him a new arena. It's not as simple as saying "The shouldn't have moved to the burbs"

The history is well known.

1- Dropping them into Phoenix with no market prep was a bad idea. Working something out in Minneapolis or Nashville would have been much better.

2- Every change of ownership hasn't helped.

3- When Ellman started building Westgate, there was a chance for it to work. Then the recession hit, and that killed it.

I do agree. But the draw of going out to the west side is a huge factor in all of this.

 

[JimAnchower]

Is the statement that they're current on all bills and tax liabilities Craig's words or the Coyotes?

 

[Llama19]

Is the statement that they're current on all bills and tax liabilities Craig's words or the Coyotes?

 

[Acesolid]

If the Coyotes management think that this means they are completely out of the woods... well I think they have another thing coming. They have lost a lot of credibility. And will find it harder to work with anyone.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

If the Coyotes management think that this means they are completely out of the woods... well I think they have another thing coming. They have lost a lot of credibility. And will find it harder to work with anyone.

They *should* have lost a lot of credibility.

Throughout this saga, cities and towns have acted and behaved in sometimes bizarre ways. If I were Tempe, I'd be thinking there's no way I can trust them with a project worth hundreds of millions of dollars or more if they can't/won't pay a measly $1.5 million in taxes on time. However, you never know and as I've said I won't believe this is over until it's truly over because they've come back from the brink multiple times.

 

[mouser]

All of which is the reason that the Tempe proposal looks like poison.

It was first advertised as '100% privately funded'. Then we found out that Meruelo wanted 200M in tax kickbacks.

Now, given what we know of how he does business, does it not seem clear that his moves going forward would be:
1-Take the 200M and build the arena
2- Delay the rest of the development
3- Enjoy an arena half paid for by taxpayers, and all the money that comes with having the arena
4- Skip paying anything until you are forced to.

And, the result for Tempe?
- Land not developed out
- 200M given away which cannot be recovered because there is no development from which to generate it

Conclusion: Any arena in Tempe needs to be 100% private financed. Meruelo has proven himself completely untrustworthy. Lease him the land, or sell it to him cheap. Work with him on zoning. But, don't give him a penny.

I don't believe the proposal calls for Tempe to simply hand over $200m? The proposal appears to contain specific categories of things bond money would be used on. Bonds would also be issued in stages as development phases progress. Presumably all of this would be covered in detail if Tempe approves a deal.

 

[Blitzkrug]

It's almost like the Yotes threatening to sue Strang only caused her to dig deeper and ending up with an axe to grind against the organization for trying to smear her credibility

 

[OG6ix]

Seriously? Do you watch the Leafs on TV only when they're winning? Even if you personally don't, there's a ton of fans in the GTA who will watch come hell or high water. Same with the Rangers, etc....hell look at Buffalo's TV ratings, usually the best in the NHL & you can't tell me those fans don't have a reason to tune out.

You are seriously comparing the Leafs who have been in Toronto for over 100 years to the Yotes in Arizona? I can give you other real life examples when the Raptors were having management and ownership issues their ratings were not good. Now that they have built a consistent winning culture it is a much different position. What are you expecting here? New markets need time and winning to cultivate a fanbase.

 

[digmor crusher]

20 years of failure, when will these dummies realize hockey will not work there? Send them to Houston already.

 

[Mightygoose]

And in their statement yesterday didn't they say they don't owe any taxes?

 

[Boris Zubov]

You are seriously comparing the Leafs who have been in Toronto for over 100 years to the Yotes in Arizona? I can give you other real life examples when the Raptors were having management and ownership issues their ratings were not good. Now that they have built a consistent winning culture it is a much different position. What are you expecting here? New markets need time and winning to cultivate a fanbase.

I compared them to the Leafs & the Rangers, because they're the two teams you & I root for. I also compared them to the dumpster fire known as the Buffalo Sabres, who have no problem with their TV ratings despite horrible management.

It's no longer a new market, it's been 25 years. How long do you need before you're ready to decide it doesn't work, 50 years, 75?

 

[Llama19]

Arizona Coyotes just forgot to pay a $1.3 million tax bill? Anybody buying that?

www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/laurieroberts/2021/12/09/arizona-coyotes-just-forgot-pay-1-3-million-tax-bill/6448958001/

 

[Boris Zubov]

Arizona Coyotes just forgot to pay a $1.3 million tax bill? Anybody buying that?

www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/laurieroberts/2021/12/09/arizona-coyotes-just-forgot-pay-1-3-million-tax-bill/6448958001/

Totally believable. They just forgot for 18 months.

 

[Mightygoose]

Very good comparison, another team that basically held the fanbases' collective face to the back seat of a NYC cab and ordered them to lick.

And also like the Expos MLB realized the business model wasn't working and had to make the hard but right decision.

Burnt it down to ashes but it eventually cleaned the slate for it to be properly which is behind the scenes in Montreal right now

 

[JimAnchower]

City wanting confirmation from ASM that they are paid through end of season.