Line Combos: Cup Run Depth vs. Today

[kilowatt]

The Kings’ depth has been a major point of contention so far this year. I thought it would be interesting to reiterate what the team looked like during the 2012 and 2014 cup runs in comparison with the team today.

2012:

Brown - Kopitar - Williams
Richards - Carter - Penner
King - Stoll - Lewis
Nolan - Fraser - Richardson
(Clifford was hurt)

Scuderi - Doughty
Mitchell - Voynov
Martinez - Greene

Quick

2014:

Brown - Kopitar - Gaborik
Pearson - Carter - Toffoli
King - Stoll - Williams
Clifford - Richards - Lewis

Muzzin - Doughty
Mitchell - Voynov
Martinez - Greene

Quick

2018:

Brown - Kopitar - Gaborik
Pearson - Carter - Toffoli
Kempe - Shore - Lewis
Iafallo - Mitchell - Jokinen

Muzzin - Doughty
Forbort - Martinez
MacDermid - Folin

Quick

I’m interested in hearing everyone’s thoughts before I give my own.

Click to read more...

 

[jfont]

That 3rd pair D is just .. Ugh

 

[deaderhead28]

These were the roster players who started or ended the season in 2012.

No.	Player	Flag	Pos	Age	Ht	Wt	S/C	Exp	Birth Date	Summary
45	Jonathan Bernier	ca	G	23	6-0	184	-/L	3	August 7, 1988	5-6-2, 2.36 GAA
23	Dustin Brown (C)	us	RW	27	6-0	216	R/-	7	November 4, 1984	22 G, 32 A, 54 P
77	Jeff Carter	ca	C	27	6-3	217	R/-	6	January 1, 1985	6 G, 3 A, 9 P
13	Kyle Clifford	ca	LW	21	6-2	211	L/-	1	January 13, 1991	5 G, 7 A, 12 P
8	Drew Doughty	ca	D	22	6-1	200	R/-	3	December 8, 1989	10 G, 26 A, 36 P
44	Davis Drewiske	us	D	27	6-2	219	L/-	3	November 22, 1984	2 G, 0 A, 2 P
24	Colin Fraser	ca	C	27	6-1	190	L/-	5	January 28, 1985	2 G, 6 A, 8 P
12	Simon Gagne	ca	LW	31	6-1	195	L/-	11	February 29, 1980	7 G, 10 A, 17 P
2	Matt Greene	us	D	28	6-3	236	R/-	6	May 13, 1983	4 G, 11 A, 15 P
47	Trent Hunter	ca	RW	31	6-3	217	R/-	8	July 5, 1980	2 G, 5 A, 7 P
3	Jack Johnson	us	D	25	6-1	227	L/-	5	January 13, 1987	8 G, 16 A, 24 P
74	Dwight King	ca	LW	22	6-4	229	L/-	1	July 5, 1989	5 G, 9 A, 14 P
11	Anze Kopitar	si	C	24	6-3	224	L/-	5	August 24, 1987	25 G, 51 A, 76 P
22	Trevor Lewis	us	C	25	6-1	205	R/-	3	January 8, 1987	3 G, 4 A, 7 P
48	Andrei Loktionov	su	C	21	5-11	190	L/-	2	May 30, 1990	3 G, 4 A, 7 P
27	Alec Martinez	us	D	24	6-1	208	L/-	2	July 26, 1987	6 G, 6 A, 12 P
33	Willie Mitchell	ca	D	34	6-3	210	L/-	11	April 23, 1977	5 G, 19 A, 24 P
17	Ethan Moreau	ca	LW	36	6-3	219	L/-	15	September 22, 1975	1 G, 3 A, 4 P
71	Jordan Nolan	ca	C	22	6-3	219	L/-	R	June 23, 1989	2 G, 2 A, 4 P
21	Scott Parse	us	C	27	5-11	189	R/-	2	September 5, 1984	2 G, 0 A, 2 P
25	Dustin Penner	ca	RW	29	6-4	242	L/-	6	September 28, 1982	7 G, 10 A, 17 P
32	Jonathan Quick	us	G	26	6-1	218	-/L	4	January 21, 1986	35-21-13, 1.95 GAA
10	Mike Richards	ca	C	26	5-11	196	L/-	6	February 11, 1985	18 G, 26 A, 44 P
15	Brad Richardson	ca	RW	26	6-0	190	L/-	6	February 4, 1985	5 G, 3 A, 8 P
7	Rob Scuderi	us	D	33	6-1	212	L/-	7	December 30, 1978	1 G, 8 A, 9 P
28	Jarret Stoll	ca	C	29	6-1	216	R/-	8	June 24, 1982	6 G, 15 A, 21 P
26	Slava Voynov	ru	D	22	6-0	194	R/-	R	January 15, 1990	8 G, 12 A, 20 P
19	Kevin Westgarth	ca	RW	27	6-4	234	R/-	2	February 7, 1984	1 G, 1 A, 2 P
14	Justin Williams

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[deaderhead28]

Players who either started the season or ended the season on the roster in 2014

 

[deaderhead28]

This team as of today can't match the defenses of both 2012 or 14.No point in stating the other obvious holes again.

 

[Fishhead]

We wont see a defense like those two teams for a looooooong time. 4 developed guys (Muzzin, Martinez, Doughty, Voynov) would have meant great D cores for years. Lots of things happened with this team, but none of them impacted the roster more than Voynov f'ing up.

But FWIW, I think if this team is healthy, they are deeper on offense than 2012. 2014 maybe a wash.

 

[KingsFan7824]

Shouldn't forget how much people couldn't wait to see both Penner and Stoll gone as UFA's before the 2012 playoffs started. Then each scored series winning goals in OT.

Brown had forgotten how to score by 2014, which was part of the reason for getting Gaborik. Then Gaborik went on to be tied for the 6th most goals in one playoff tournament in league history. Richards was a shell of himself, although had a couple moments in the playoffs. They survived Anaheim without both Mitchell and Regehr. Nobody was thrilled with Greene either, even then. Of course they started those playoffs terribly, and were a game away from doing in 2014 what they ended up doing in 2016.

It's easy to look back and see the obvious. In 2014, Pearson had 3 goals and 7 points in 25 regular season games. He finished the playoffs with 4G and 12pts in 24 games, with no track record to go on. Toffoli improved on his goals per game average from the regular season to the playoffs. For all we know, Kempe and Iafallo could do the same. They probably need a defenseman, but if one extra guy on the roster today could play well for a series, sometimes that's all you need, if your top guys are doing what they're supposed to do.

It's more likely they don't win the Cup than do, regardless of any improvements they make, but that's looking ahead to see the obvious. Nobody saw up 3-0 in every series, or the insanity of 2014 though.

 

[BigKing]

2014 had Greene as a scratch until Regher went down. If any Top 4 guy goes down now, they are screwed. Already saw what happened in 2016 when Martinez was out for the SJ series.

I know some on here would like to say there isn't much of a difference between the forward groups, but Williams was a real difference maker. Maybe Kempe can hit another gear in the playoffs and maybe Brown/Gaborik play out of their respective minds again, but I'd rather take the other forward groups. Williams/Stoll/Richards...lot of experience and grit right there.

What the Kings have going for them now is the elite trio of Kopitar/Doughty/Quick and the lack of a real powerhouse lineup in the West. Get Carter up to speed and now you have two strong centers and a goalie that can steal a series.

 

[Reaper45]

2014 had Greene as a scratch until Regher went down. If any Top 4 guy goes down now, they are screwed. Already saw what happened in 2016 when Martinez was out for the SJ series.

I know some on here would like to say there isn't much of a difference between the forward groups, but Williams was a real difference maker. Maybe Kempe can hit another gear in the playoffs and maybe Brown/Gaborik play out of their respective minds again, but I'd rather take the other forward groups. Williams/Stoll/Richards...lot of experience and grit right there.

What the Kings have going for them now is the elite trio of Kopitar/Doughty/Quick and the lack of a real powerhouse lineup in the West. Get Carter up to speed and now you have two strong centers and a goalie that can steal a series.

Yeah they really need to add another vet defenseman. Move out Folin to make room.

Doughty-Muzzin
Martinez-vet
Forbort-Fantenberg
MacDermid

 

[AlphaBravo]

To state the obvious, defense is the main difference. I hope LaDue becomes the steady top 4 defenseman for the second pair. We also have Clague in the ranks, who should be ready in a year or two to join the big club. If we want to get a top 4 defenseman for this year as part of a long term plan, we will have to sacrifice either a 1st rounder for a rental and try to sign, or trade Vilardi in a big deal. I would prefer to sit pat this season and see what the team can do with who we have. Next year, is the real year where the Kings can make noise with Vilardi possibly joining the team.

 

[Papa Mocha 15]

Obviously D is an issue but also 3C needs to be upgraded. I don't see Shore/Mitchell pulling the weight in the P/offs. Need to be stronger down the middle. If Carter comes back 100% that is one thing; however, often times an injury needs a few months or full season or so to really bounce back.

Thanks OP for the side by side comparison. It helps with giving some perspective.

 

[KingsFan7824]

2014 had Greene as a scratch until Regher went down. If any Top 4 guy goes down now, they are screwed. Already saw what happened in 2016 when Martinez was out for the SJ series.

I know some on here would like to say there isn't much of a difference between the forward groups, but Williams was a real difference maker. Maybe Kempe can hit another gear in the playoffs and maybe Brown/Gaborik play out of their respective minds again, but I'd rather take the other forward groups. Williams/Stoll/Richards...lot of experience and grit right there.

What the Kings have going for them now is the elite trio of Kopitar/Doughty/Quick and the lack of a real powerhouse lineup in the West. Get Carter up to speed and now you have two strong centers and a goalie that can steal a series.

Because they won. Not saying you're wrong, or that I don't agree with you, but if the Kings win the Cup this year, and Kempe and Iafallo bust out in a series or two, and Brown and Gaborik keep scoring, and Kopitar keeps scoring, and Carter is back, and Pearson wakes up, and Toffoli keeps scoring, we'll love this forward group as much as any other.

If they don't win, well of course they didn't, they weren't as good.

To state the obvious, defense is the main difference. I hope LaDue becomes the steady top 4 defenseman for the second pair. We also have Clague in the ranks, who should be ready in a year or two to join the big club. If we want to get a top 4 defenseman for this year as part of a long term plan, we will have to sacrifice either a 1st rounder for a rental and try to sign, or trade Vilardi in a big deal. I would prefer to sit pat this season and see what the team can do with who we have. Next year, is the real year where the Kings can make noise with Vilardi possibly joining the team.

You sit pat if you're hovering around the last playoff seed, and things aren't clicking. If Brown stops scoring again, or Gaborik gets hurt again, you sit pat. If they're hanging with Vegas by the deadline, and Gaborik is flying, and Brown is still around a 30 goal level, and Kopitar is still having a career year, you don't know how long all that's going to last. They may not have the luxury of waiting. You go as in as the cap will allow, and worry about the future later. If things are going well, you can't pass that up simply because Vilardi might be ready to go 10 months from now. Not to mention having to make/keep Doughty happy.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Because they won. Not saying you're wrong, or that I don't agree with you, but if the Kings win the Cup this year, and Kempe and Iafallo bust out in a series or two, and Brown and Gaborik keep scoring, and Kopitar keeps scoring, and Carter is back, and Pearson wakes up, and Toffoli keeps scoring, we'll love this forward group as much as any other.

If they don't win, well of course they didn't, they weren't as good.

You sit pat if you're hovering around the last playoff seed, and things aren't clicking. If Brown stops scoring again, or Gaborik gets hurt again, you sit pat. If they're hanging with Vegas by the deadline, and Gaborik is flying, and Brown is still around a 30 goal level, and Kopitar is still having a career year, you don't know how long all that's going to last. They may not have the luxury of waiting. You go as in as the cap will allow, and worry about the future later. If things are going well, you can't pass that up simply because Vilardi might be ready to go 10 months from now. Not to mention having to make/keep Doughty happy.

Very true. On paper, this squad is already deeper. Who had Dwight King setting the LAK franchise record for WCF goals? Playoffs are wild like that. Someone CAN go full Chris Kontos and you never know who it will be, but just on the surface, I like this better.

I will say I think Vilardi is as close to untouchable a prospect as we have had in years. Anyone else, even Clague, I'd be ok moving for the right guy (meaning not a rental).

Also worth noting as @deaderhead28 pointed out is that the rosters from those years changed significantly throughout the year from start to finish. Remember Daniel Carcillo, Trent Hunter, Ethan Moreau? Maybe someone goes the way of those guys and the buffalo (coughandreoffcough)...

 

[KingsFan7824]

Very true. On paper, this squad is already deeper. Who had Dwight King setting the LAK franchise record for WCF goals? Playoffs are wild like that. Someone CAN go full Chris Kontos and you never know who it will be, but just on the surface, I like this better.

I will say I think Vilardi is as close to untouchable a prospect as we have had in years. Anyone else, even Clague, I'd be ok moving for the right guy (meaning not a rental).

Also worth noting as @deaderhead28 pointed out is that the rosters from those years changed significantly throughout the year from start to finish. Remember Daniel Carcillo, Trent Hunter, Ethan Moreau? Maybe someone goes the way of those guys and the buffalo (coughandreoffcough)...

I'd say potentially deeper. I do give something to that "it" factor some players have. Richards, even at the end of 13-14, you felt he still had a little of that. Stoll, he knew how to be a pain. He may not have scored, but he'd still make your day difficult. Not sure a guy like Shore gives off either one of those things. He's just like a dude that plays hockey. Put him on the 4th line in 2014, or even 2012, and I'm sure they still win, but even Fraser had more to him than Shore seems to.

But again, that's another one of those you never know sort of things. The Penner trade was a total bust until the 2012 playoffs. He started to click with Richards and Carter, and then he ends up scoring one of the great goals in franchise history.

 

[AlphaBravo]

Because they won. Not saying you're wrong, or that I don't agree with you, but if the Kings win the Cup this year, and Kempe and Iafallo bust out in a series or two, and Brown and Gaborik keep scoring, and Kopitar keeps scoring, and Carter is back, and Pearson wakes up, and Toffoli keeps scoring, we'll love this forward group as much as any other.

If they don't win, well of course they didn't, they weren't as good.



You sit pat if you're hovering around the last playoff seed, and things aren't clicking. If Brown stops scoring again, or Gaborik gets hurt again, you sit pat. If they're hanging with Vegas by the deadline, and Gaborik is flying, and Brown is still around a 30 goal level, and Kopitar is still having a career year, you don't know how long all that's going to last. They may not have the luxury of waiting. You go as in as the cap will allow, and worry about the future later. If things are going well, you can't pass that up simply because Vilardi might be ready to go 10 months from now. Not to mention having to make/keep Doughty happy.

That's the kind of mentality that got us into this mess. We can't afford to trade away our 1st rounders for rentals anymore. I understand that we have to be competitive for Doughty to resign, but this team is not going to suddenly become a cup contender by trading the 1st rounder for a rental. If there is a deal that involves trading our 1st round pick and/or prospects for a top 4 D signed long term, I am okay with a trade. That said, I can't image a trade like that existing during the season. It seems like 80% of teams are in the market for a top 4D. In all likelihood, we have to pray that LaDue can do that job, or see if there is a way to bring back Voynov.

 

[BigKing]

Agree to disagree that the current forward group looks better on paper than either 2012 or '14.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Agree to disagree that the current forward group looks better on paper than either 2012 or '14.

That's fine. I think it's at least debateable, but it's also tough to evaluate since we're operating with a romanticized end result from 2012 and 2014 versus the bias of the last couple of years influencing opinions on the status of those players now. Brown of 2012 up to the trade deadline was struggling as was Doughty, we had Trent Hunter and Ethan Moreau, etc.

 

[BigKing]

It's not so much "romanticizing" as it is results. Sure, someone on the current squad could go Kontos like King did but, then again, King wasn't total garbage back then like he is remembered now.

Richards' "it factor" was a real thing and he was still a very good player in 2012. The team's current depth down the middle does not match-up with either squad. Gaborik was better then than he is now, although I am a Gaborik fan.

Does Brown have a 2012 run in him? Doubt it even with his current bounce back season.

I guess it is debatable when you rely on a lot of ifs and hopes with the current roster. They *could* put something together that tops those teams but that's asking a lot: especially when you look at the 2014 groups numbers.

I'm not saying they can't make noise if they make the playoffs or that the ifs and hopes can't or won't happen, we're just talking about quality forwards on those teams and basically replacing 2012 Richards/Williams and 2014 Williams with Kempe, never mind the grit and face off ability of Stoll.

I do agree, however, that the forward group is more comparable than the defense. Defense is nowhere close as it currently stands, although Chicago won in 2015 with only 4 defensemen so it can happen.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

It's not so much "romanticizing" as it is results. Sure, someone on the current squad could go Kontos like King did but, then again, King wasn't total garbage back then like he is remembered now.

Richards' "it factor" was a real thing and he was still a very good player in 2012. The team's current depth down the middle does not match-up with either squad. Gaborik was better then than he is now, although I am a Gaborik fan.

Does Brown have a 2012 run in him? Doubt it even with his current bounce back season.

I guess it is debatable when you rely on a lot of ifs and hopes with the current roster. They *could* put something together that tops those teams but that's asking a lot: especially when you look at the 2014 groups numbers.

I'm not saying they can't make noise if they make the playoffs or that the ifs and hopes can't or won't happen, we're just talking about quality forwards on those teams and basically replacing 2012 Richards/Williams and 2014 Williams with Kempe, never mind the grit and face off ability of Stoll.

I do agree, however, that the forward group is more comparable than the defense. Defense is nowhere close as it currently stands, although Chicago won in 2015 with only 4 defensemen so it can happen.

No I agree, the defense in comparison is a total travesty.

It IS certainly results, but I guess what i'm saying is up through the end, it wasn't terribly different. KingsFan7824 said almost the same thing. Dwight King in 2012 was basically Tanner Pearson 2014: a good forward who went nuclear in the playoffs. Adrian Kempe and Trevor Lewis are on that pace now. Pearson hasn't even been good by his standards and he's still on that pace. 2012 Dustin Penner is maybe the perfect example; before scoring huge goals and being an impact playoff player, he put up seventeen points in the 2012 regular season! That's the stuff that Dwight King did last year when everyone wanted him to disappear. Nick Shore is a punching bag here for his offense, but he's going to beat that while playing far less and far harder minutes.

there's definitely a mysterious 'it' on those rosters that I don't think is here now, and I can agree on that. I believe heavily in intangibles especially given what we've seen. Jarret Stoll for example was an extremely average hockey player towards the end but my god did he get results. but on paper, the forward core is at least debateably better.

 

[kingsboy11]

Game 1 of the Stanley Cup finals last year saw the Penguins line up with:
Dumoulin-Hainsey
Maata-Daley
Cole-Schultz

vs
Ekholm-Subban
Ellis-Josi
Yannick Weber-Irwin

The absolute ideal defensive pairing is/was our 2012 defense. No holes anywhere, everyone healthy with a mix of youth and veteran players with each pairing a right/left handed defenseman. It will likely be unmatched for years to come. But every time I see our defense, I know that its still possible with this group to get back there looking at what the Penguins ran with the past 2 seasons. Its far from perfect, that much is obvious. But a lot of things have to go right as well. Injuries (injury free in 2012), individual performances (Quick in 2012, Williams in 2014) and a little bit of luck goes a long way.

 

[deaderhead28]

Really liking the constructive dialogue and in-depth debates on this instead of people's personal feelings.Awsome job Kings fans

 

[kilowatt]

Another big thing we’re not talking about is that the 2012 and 2014 teams were very effective within the Kings’ system. The current team is equally as effective in a different system.

I agree that the Kings have a surplus of third pairing defensemen that can play second pair in a pinch. It would be great if the Kings could turn Gravel or Folin into a veteran top four defenseman.

I think the offense is very good. Certainly the best we’ve seen since 2012. That could be a result of the system, though.

 

[LAKings88]

As Quick goes so LA goes.

Always a chance for this team. Got to get in first tho.

 

[lumbergh]

If you wanna do an apples-to-apples comparison you should take a look at the mid-season lineups in January 2012 and 2014. Those lineups don’t look the same without Carter and Gaborik.

One has to think that Blake will decide if this team has a chance for a long run over the next month. If so, he could pull the trigger on a trade for a big fish. If you put a Hjalmarson in the mix this season, I would argue that the depth looks comparable.

 

[kilowatt]

Let’s say the Kings do need a third-line center. Who do they target?