News Article: Cup Contenders (and why the Pens aren't one)

[wgknestrick]

-Martin and Letang hurt a lot more than that, I think. As you lose a lot of your ability to break out of the zone, as well as some puck possession abilities.

-I doubt Bylsma is oblivious, it may just be that he, a well as the professional scouts of a profesional sports franchise happen to disagree with a small subsection of the fanbase about the "demonstratingly" better Young D-men. Unless the prospects are playing pro-hockey somewhere at the same level as the NHL, then only Olli Maatta is(truly) proven to be better. It seems like people like to ignore when Despres does things like softly pass it to his partner for it to be picked off and lead to a partial break-away(though, I'm sure if Orpik did it, then we'd have like 5 threads go on for 2 days about it), some may be NHL ready, but aren't better. Or they would be with the big club.

The Pens need to get healthy, and get back to how they were playing early in the season.

These little "wrongs" do not add up in the high level results though. This is why the Pens are faltering in the coaching side. We are completely ignoring the high level player "goals" (outscoring the opposition) in favor of minor issues. You can be perfect on every minor issue and still hurt your team if you never outscore anyone (Craig Adam's poster child).

Despres is our 2nd best D man as far as +- / 60min behind Nisky. He is obviously doing something much more right than his little wrongs, huh?

 

[Tasty Biscuits]

Yeah I have eyes and have watched them, plus the fact that I've seen this same exact joke of a show for 4-5 years now.

I know how it ends.

Just goes to show that even the advanced stats back up what we're all seeing. They don't pass any kind of test, eye or other.

 

[CrozJawz*]

When the issues started rearing their ugly head last season, I said that the Pens main issue with depth. (Yes, even with Iginla, Morrow, and Jokinen added to the mix, the bottom 6 still sucked). On another forum I said that teams like Boston and Chicago have the depth and shutdown D needed to contend. I got ripped for it with everyone crowing about how the Pens beat Boston during the regular season, blah, blah, blah. Well low and behold, look who was in the Final and look who won...

This is the same team that lost to Montreal in 2010 and nothing has changed. Crosby and Malkin still don't have anybody on their lines that can generate offense on their own and when they play team like Boston and Philly, Bergeron and Coots can take away Sid and Geno's space and time easily and none of their linemates can make plays. These teams know this and aren't afraid of someone like Kunitz, Dupuis, or even Neal walking any of their d men and scoring a goal. They know that the offense runs directly through those two and if they are effectively taken away, they can smother the Pens. These teams also know that if they can score the first goal against the Pens, they will lose their composure, start forcing things and turning the puck over with regularity, leading to more chances for them.

On D, the Pens can't handle an aggressive forecheck. When the other team (especially if they have some forwards with size) start crashing and banging down low, the relatively soft D men that the Pens have start losing puck battles and turning the puck over by hurrying and trying to force it out of the zone. It doesn't help that the Pens want to play a quick transition game so they are under even more pressure to quickly get the puck up ice. This leads to extended periods of time where the Pens are running around in their own end, looking like the Keystone Kops, trying to just get it to the blueline. Add Fleury's behind the net antics to the mix and things go off the deep end...

The blueprint for beating the Pens has been exposed for awhile now. It used to be that a few teams had the systems and personnel to do that, but other teams are now catching on and actually altering their gameplan for when they play the Pens (what a novel concept!!!) The Pens refuse to alter their gameplan when they play certain teams. It's just "get to our game", bear our heads against the wall and hope that everything that works out...

I can't tell you how disgusting it is to watch this team and just know that they will struggle to even gain the freaking offensive blueline and commit and un-godly amount of turnovers in the neutral zone. Weak cross ice passes, guys getting stripped of the puck, off sides, getting their point shots blocked 9 times out of 10, missing the net with regularity, forcing passes when they have a wide open shots, refusing to get traffic in front of the goaltender, etc, etc, etc. SIMPLIFY YOUR GAME!!! Why is that so hard to figure out? Who is running this razzle dazzle, globetrotting team? Bylsma? The players? Who??? Stop with the umpteen drop passes to nobody the 10 give and gos when you are standing 4 feet apart, the attempted saucer passes through 3 defenders, picking corners, etc. JUST SHOOT THE ****ING PUCK ON NET AND LOOK FOR REBOUNDS!!!

Look at the Blues' goal on Sunday. Just thrown at the net with traffic in front and it deflects in...

Look at the Coyotes 2nd goal last night. Guys crashing the net and jamming home the rebound that was laying at MAF's feet...

Look at the Wings' goals the other night. THREE of them deflecting in off of Pens defenders. The Wings were just slinging pucks at the net and getting results...

Why can't the Pens simplify things and just start shooting and getting traffic in front? Instead they just keep forcing it back to the points and then getting shots easily blocked with their huge windups. Or they are forcing passes when they have a wide open shot, looking for that perfect tic tac toe play...

 

[Sidgeni Malkby]

When the issues started rearing their ugly head last season, I said that the Pens main issue with depth. (Yes, even with Iginla, Morrow, and Jokinen added to the mix, the bottom 6 still sucked). On another forum I said that teams like Boston and Chicago have the depth and shutdown D needed to contend. I got ripped for it with everyone crowing about how the Pens beat Boston during the regular season, blah, blah, blah. Well low and behold, look who was in the Final and look who won...

This is the same team that lost to Montreal in 2010 and nothing has changed. Crosby and Malkin still don't have anybody on their lines that can generate offense on their own and when they play team like Boston and Philly, Bergeron and Coots can take away Sid and Geno's space and time easily and none of their linemates can make plays. These teams know this and aren't afraid of someone like Kunitz, Dupuis, or even Neal walking any of their d men and scoring a goal. They know that the offense runs directly through those two and if they are effectively taken away, they can smother the Pens. These teams also know that if they can score the first goal against the Pens, they will lose their composure, start forcing things and turning the puck over with regularity, leading to more chances for them.

On D, the Pens can't handle an aggressive forecheck. When the other team (especially if they have some forwards with size) start crashing and banging down low, the relatively soft D men that the Pens have start losing puck battles and turning the puck over by hurrying and trying to force it out of the zone. It doesn't help that the Pens want to play a quick transition game so they are under even more pressure to quickly get the puck up ice. This leads to extended periods of time where the Pens are running around in their own end, looking like the Keystone Kops, trying to just get it to the blueline. Add Fleury's behind the net antics to the mix and things go off the deep end...

The blueprint for beating the Pens has been exposed for awhile now. It used to be that a few teams had the systems and personnel to do that, but other teams are now catching on and actually altering their gameplan for when they play the Pens (what a novel concept!!!) The Pens refuse to alter their gameplan when they play certain teams. It's just "get to our game", bear our heads against the wall and hope that everything that works out...

I can't tell you how disgusting it is to watch this team and just know that they will struggle to even gain the freaking offensive blueline and commit and un-godly amount of turnovers in the neutral zone. Weak cross ice passes, guys getting stripped of the puck, off sides, getting their point shots blocked 9 times out of 10, missing the net with regularity, forcing passes when they have a wide open shots, refusing to get traffic in front of the goaltender, etc, etc, etc. SIMPLIFY YOUR GAME!!! Why is that so hard to figure out? Who is running this razzle dazzle, globetrotting team? Bylsma? The players? Who??? Stop with the umpteen drop passes to nobody the 10 give and gos when you are standing 4 feet apart, the attempted saucer passes through 3 defenders, picking corners, etc. JUST SHOOT THE ****ING PUCK ON NET AND LOOK FOR REBOUNDS!!!

Look at the Blues' goal on Sunday. Just thrown at the net with traffic in front and it deflects in...

Look at the Coyotes 2nd goal last night. Guys crashing the net and jamming home the rebound that was laying at MAF's feet...

Look at the Wings' goals the other night. THREE of them deflecting in off of Pens defenders. The Wings were just slinging pucks at the net and getting results...

Why can't the Pens simplify things and just start shooting and getting traffic in front? Instead they just keep forcing it back to the points and then getting shots easily blocked with their huge windups. Or they are forcing passes when they have a wide open shot, looking for that perfect tic tac toe play...

Seems to be their only play when in the zone.

Also notice on the rush, they always look for the trailer, or they one man kamikaze drive to the net. They rarely have a player cut across high to take a shot with a screen in front of the net, or even try a deke on a 2 on 2. The only time they deke is on a 1 on 4/5.

Frustrating and predictable beyond belief. This is why we have such a hard time scoring 5 on 5.

Come to think of it....isn't this how a grinding team would play?? Minimize the need for talent.

 

[Winger for Hire]

Why do we keep analyzing these things? We know we suck, what's the point of beating a dead horse?

To be able to use this-

 

[cygnus47]

I think our lack of structure is a way bigger issue than our personnel. We were dominating with half an NHL roster because almost everyone left was a positive possession player and we were supporting and doing the little things. I don't think our roster is that bad at all, especially when Bennett and Martin are back. The issue is that we don't move the puck out efficiently and we don't get zone entries with speed or possession.

We used to be a banging team that could just forecheck, now we're caught in the middle. We're chipping out and turning it over because we're not big or fast enough, we're chipping it in and turning it over because we're not big or fast enough, and we're not getting the zone with speed because we don't have enough structure.

We need to have an identity by this point in the season, that's all on Bylsma. Injuries or no, everyone should be playing the right way by the end of March. It's fine to lose because of a lack of depth talent, it's not okay for us to be losing because we're playing like a bottom of the league team blessed with talented players.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

The really frustrating part of this is that we made our chops losing to, and subsequently beating Detroit, one of the more dominant possession teams in recent history, and most importantly, a team intentionally built that way. We were lucky to beat them, but a lot of the credit goes to our 3rd line.

The moneyball of hockey would be a team build on Corsi/Fen, because those stats most closely correlate to not only winning, but winning in the post season. Going after players who control the puck, even though they are not always goal scorers, can really help you win.

Not to beat another dead horse, but our mythical 3rd line of Staal/Cooke/Kennedy wasn't dominant on the scoresheet, but they were dominant in possession. That's why you could match them against better players. None of those guys is overly gifted offensively.

This team seems built on the complete opposite philosophy. We've surrounded our stars with players who can't keep the puck on their stick at all. The worst offender is Glass, but we've got plenty of culprits. Dupuis is not much good in this regard either, and it's a big reason our top line has been failing. If you added the ability to control the puck and win board battles to Dupuis, you'd have a great part of our top line.

All are reasons I'm rooting for BB and Megna. They both control the play, albeit in different ways, and generate possession and shots. Round out your top 12 with Gibbons and Vitale/Conner, and you'd be far ahead of our current guys.

 

[Shockmaster]

The really frustrating part of this is that we made our chops losing to, and subsequently beating Detroit, one of the more dominant possession teams in recent history, and most importantly, a team intentionally built that way. We were lucky to beat them, but a lot of the credit goes to our 3rd line.

The moneyball of hockey would be a team build on Corsi/Fen, because those stats most closely correlate to not only winning, but winning in the post season. Going after players who control the puck, even though they are not always goal scorers, can really help you win.

Not to beat another dead horse, but our mythical 3rd line of Staal/Cooke/Kennedy wasn't dominant on the scoresheet, but they were dominant in possession. That's why you could match them against better players. None of those guys is overly gifted offensively.

This team seems built on the complete opposite philosophy. We've surrounded our stars with players who can't keep the puck on their stick at all. The worst offender is Glass, but we've got plenty of culprits. Dupuis is not much good in this regard either, and it's a big reason our top line has been failing. If you added the ability to control the puck and win board battles to Dupuis, you'd have a great part of our top line.

All are reasons I'm rooting for BB and Megna. They both control the play, albeit in different ways, and generate possession and shots. Round out your top 12 with Gibbons and Vitale/Conner, and you'd be far ahead of our current guys.

No, Gibbons and Connor are too small. The players that are needed to make this bottom 6 better aren't in the Penguins organization.

 

[billybudd]

No, Gibbons and Connor are too small. The players that are needed to make this bottom 6 better aren't in the Penguins organization.

Yep.

 

[Beauner]

Seems to be their only play when in the zone.

Also notice on the rush, they always look for the trailer, or they one man kamikaze drive to the net. They rarely have a player cut across high to take a shot with a screen in front of the net, or even try a deke on a 2 on 2. The only time they deke is on a 1 on 4/5.

Frustrating and predictable beyond belief. This is why we have such a hard time scoring 5 on 5.

Come to think of it....isn't this how a grinding team would play?? Minimize the need for talent.

That's because they're safe plays. Anything else is really asking for a turnover. That's actually one thing this teams does right. And deking on a 2-2 isn't really a good idea unless you're Crosby or Malkin. Or Stempniak evidently. Obviously deking 1-4 isn't good either but you get what I'm saying.

 

[T1K]

Jesus Christ. You guys are so freaking negative. A guy in this thread honestly posted that he hopes we get swept. And we wonder why everyone includes us on their lists of the worst fan bases. Like honestly would it kill some of you guys to try to be optimistic? Obviously this season hasn't been as great as we had hoped, but in the end there is literally nothing any of us can do about it. We are a contender to come out of the East. I'd bet any money we make it to the ECF (as long as we don't play Philly). I don't think MAF will be nearly as bad this time around in the playoffs. The dude's back is to the wall and I'm sure he realizes that.

 

[WhatsaMaatta]

Jesus Christ. You guys are so freaking negative. A guy in this thread honestly posted that he hopes we get swept. And we wonder why everyone includes us on their lists of the worst fan bases. Like honestly would it kill some of you guys to try to be optimistic? Obviously this season hasn't been as great as we had hoped, but in the end there is literally nothing any of us can do about it. We are a contender to come out of the East. I'd bet any money we make it to the ECF (as long as we don't play Philly). I don't think MAF will be nearly as bad this time around in the playoffs. The dude's back is to the wall and I'm sure he realizes that.

You sound as if you haven't been watching this team since the Montreal series. Nothing has changed since then. Really, what reason has this team given us to think they will come out of the east? Even if the Pens get a full roster, Bylsma will not play the right players or get this team to play the right brand of hockey.

 

[Pharrell Williams]

I'm going to say the Pens win the Cup this year solely because that would make no sense and our team is very good at not making sense.

 

[MetalheadPenguinsFan]

I'm going to say the Pens win the Cup this year solely because that would make no sense and our team is very good at not making sense.

#GladamsShareTheConnSmythe.

Wouldn't that be a real trip?

 

[T1K]

You sound as if you haven't been watching this team since the Montreal series. Nothing has changed since then. Really, what reason has this team given us to think they will come out of the east? Even if the Pens get a full roster, Bylsma will not play the right players or get this team to play the right brand of hockey.

Believe me, I'd love to see Bylsma out. All I'm saying is that it wouldn't kill us to be a little optimistic going into the playoffs. The East is awful. Boston is better than us and Philly would probably beat us, but there's a chance we don't play either of them in the playoffs. Those are the only 2 teams I'm really worried about in the East, Montreal maybe too.

 

[Darth Vitale]

I'm confident we don't need SB Nation copy or Zagnut Ratings to be reasonably sure that the Penguins aren't winning **** this year.

 

[Zero Pucks]

Believe me, I'd love to see Bylsma out. All I'm saying is that it wouldn't kill us to be a little optimistic going into the playoffs. The East is awful. Boston is better than us and Philly would probably beat us, but there's a chance we don't play either of them in the playoffs. Those are the only 2 teams I'm really worried about in the East, Montreal maybe too.

We've all seen this **** show one too many times. And right now; the Pens are playing some of their worst hockey in years, Bylsma never learns his lessons because he doesn't like lessons, and there isn't a team in the East that couldn't beat us. There's a lot of teams coming to life right now, while we keep heading into a downward spiral. Heck we couldn't beat Detroit with their two best players injured. Other than Crosby and Malkin being a wasted gift to this franchise, what is there one thing to be optimistic about?

Maybe the Pens really do want to lose all these recent games, because none of them are meaningful at all and losing must be fun.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

No, Gibbons and Connor are too small. The players that are needed to make this bottom 6 better aren't in the Penguins organization.

I agree those players aren't ideal, but they're better than Glass and Adams.

 

[td_ice]

Jesus Christ. You guys are so freaking negative. A guy in this thread honestly posted that he hopes we get swept. And we wonder why everyone includes us on their lists of the worst fan bases. Like honestly would it kill some of you guys to try to be optimistic? Obviously this season hasn't been as great as we had hoped, but in the end there is literally nothing any of us can do about it. We are a contender to come out of the East. I'd bet any money we make it to the ECF (as long as we don't play Philly). I don't think MAF will be nearly as bad this time around in the playoffs. The dude's back is to the wall and I'm sure he realizes that.

Only touching on the points in bold, and really nothing else.

Us being negative about our own team is NOT the reason other fan bases hate us, haha.

As for MAF, man I would hope not. It would hard for him to be worse than some of the playoffs series he has put up recently.

 

[billybudd]

The really frustrating part of this is that we made our chops losing to, and subsequently beating Detroit, one of the more dominant possession teams in recent history, and most importantly, a team intentionally built that way. We were lucky to beat them, but a lot of the credit goes to our 3rd line.

The moneyball of hockey would be a team build on Corsi/Fen, because those stats most closely correlate to not only winning, but winning in the post season. Going after players who control the puck, even though they are not always goal scorers, can really help you win.

Not to beat another dead horse, but our mythical 3rd line of Staal/Cooke/Kennedy wasn't dominant on the scoresheet, but they were dominant in possession. That's why you could match them against better players. None of those guys is overly gifted offensively.

This team seems built on the complete opposite philosophy. We've surrounded our stars with players who can't keep the puck on their stick at all. The worst offender is Glass, but we've got plenty of culprits. Dupuis is not much good in this regard either, and it's a big reason our top line has been failing. If you added the ability to control the puck and win board battles to Dupuis, you'd have a great part of our top line.

All are reasons I'm rooting for BB and Megna. They both control the play, albeit in different ways, and generate possession and shots. Round out your top 12 with Gibbons and Vitale/Conner, and you'd be far ahead of our current guys.

None of this is really correct. Dupuis generates shots on net at roughly double the rate Bennett does and is a significantly stronger possession player than either of these guys on his career.

If one were to eliminate every minute Dupuis has played with Sidney Crosby, he's still a much better possession player than Bennett or Megna have demonstrated they are and, again, he puts significantly more rubber on the net, which is something that's been true since his rookie season.

Dupuis has no hands. That's his one malfunction.

That he can't advance the puck, win battles or cycle is pure fabrication. The notion that he's worse at winning battles than Bennett or Megna (lol) is sheer lunacy.

Edit: oh, and the idea that the first line was "failing" with Dupuis on the ice is revisionist history. Since Pascal went down, Sid and Kunitz are giving up 80% more goals. Sid's goals for % dropped from 64 to 50.

Again, the amount of offense they give up the other way without PD rose by 80%.

 

[ObsessedCreative*]

-Martin and Letang hurt a lot more than that, I think. As you lose a lot of your ability to break out of the zone, as well as some puck possession abilities.

-I doubt Bylsma is oblivious, it may just be that he, a well as the professional scouts of a profesional sports franchise happen to disagree with a small subsection of the fanbase about the "demonstratingly" better Young D-men. Unless the prospects are playing pro-hockey somewhere at the same level as the NHL, then only Olli Maatta is(truly) proven to be better. It seems like people like to ignore when Despres does things like softly pass it to his partner for it to be picked off and lead to a partial break-away(though, I'm sure if Orpik did it, then we'd have like 5 threads go on for 2 days about it), some may be NHL ready, but aren't better. Or they would be with the big club.

The Pens need to get healthy, and get back to how they were playing early in the season.

How many times do we need to keep telling people, come playoff time it won't matter.

Playoffs are a completely different animal where you can prepare study and exploit your teams weakness within a 7 game series.

Other teams do these types oh adjustments and changes, Dan still keeps pounding his regular season square peg into the playoff round hole. And coming up what for the SITH YEAR now we will see the same result.

 

[cygnus47]

None of this is really correct. Dupuis generates shots on net at roughly double the rate Bennett does and is a significantly stronger possession player than either of these guys on his career.

If one were to eliminate every minute Dupuis has played with Sidney Crosby, he's still a much better possession player than Bennett or Megna have demonstrated they are and, again, he puts significantly more rubber on the net, which is something that's been true since his rookie season.

Dupuis has no hands. That's his one malfunction.

That he can't advance the puck, win battles or cycle is pure fabrication. The notion that he's worse at winning battles than Bennett or Megna (lol) is sheer lunacy.

Edit: oh, and the idea that the first line was "failing" with Dupuis on the ice is revisionist history. Since Pascal went down, Sid and Kunitz are giving up 80% more goals. Sid's goals for % dropped from 64 to 50.

Again, the amount of offense they give up the other way without PD rose by 80%.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but the entire team has played worse since around the time Dupuis was injured, I'd bet their numbers would have dropped significantly anyway.

 

[WhatsaMaatta]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but the entire team has played worse since around the time Dupuis was injured, I'd bet their numbers would have dropped significantly anyway.

You also have to look at who you're replacing Dupuis with. It's not like the Pens replaced Dupuis with another NHL regular when he went down.

 

[MrBurghundy]

Then there's Bennett's and Megna's small sample size, and neither getting real playing time with the top two lines, which because of how bad the bottom 6 has been, is pretty significant.

 

[Sidgeni Malkby]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but the entire team has played worse since around the time Dupuis was injured, I'd bet their numbers would have dropped significantly anyway.

Dupuis is not the answer. We had Dupuis the last few years in the playoffs. Where was his effectiveness against Boston?

Right now we have replaced Dupuis with Stempniak which isn't a bad swap.

At the end of the day, it all comes down to DB. He had been given new tools last year (Iginla, Morrow), and he used them like an idiot. He has other tools this year (Megna, Gibbons, Vitale, Depres) and look how he has used them this year (the Gladams, Scudpik show). At least I'm hoping Scudpik will be solid in the playoffs. I've lost all hope with Gladams.

If you insist in driving in a nail with a screwdriver, you won't get very far.


What I will say is that we'll have less pressure so honestly makes things easier in the playoffs. If all the chips fall in the right place, things may happen.