Crosby's legacy in the Finals

[Gurglesons]

Average goals per game in the NHL playoffs Sid has made it to the finals: 5.36, 5.48, 5.25, 5.16 averages to 5.38
Average goals per game in the NHL playoffs this year: 6.07

That’s because McDavid wasn’t in the playoffs

 

[SomeDude]

That’s because McDavid wasn’t in the playoffs

I assumed it was because one Rob Scuderi was keeping those numbers down on his own.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Let's just fully embrace the ESPN logic American fans grew up with. Rings >>> everything when assessing individual greatness.
Kunitz is obviously a vastly superior playoff player than McSpeedy, evidenced by the 4 Cups.

So is Pat Maroon, Charlie Huddy, Jeff Beaukeboom, Jiri Hrdina, Mike Krushelnyski, John Madden, Mike MacEwan, Justin Williams, Aaron Ward, etc...
All of them have 3 rings.

I'll put Connor in my top-500 all-time when I see him lifting Lord Stanley. Until then he's a plug, below Scott Wilson.

 

[GilbertSeinfeld]

Jiri Hrdina was in the league for five seasons, and won three Cups.

That is quite the career.

 

[Gurglesons]

Let's just fully embrace the ESPN logic American fans grew up with. Rings >>> everything when assessing individual greatness.
Kunitz is obviously a vastly superior playoff player than McSpeedy, evidenced by the 4 Cups.

So is Pat Maroon, Charlie Huddy, Jeff Beaukeboom, Jiri Hrdina, Mike Krushelnyski, John Madden, Mike MacEwan, Justin Williams, Aaron Ward, etc...
All of them have 3 rings.

I'll put Connor in my top-500 all-time when I see him lifting Lord Stanley. Until then he's a plug, below Scott Wilson.

This is such a stupid answer that people always divert to when protecting McDavid.

This isn't ESPN logic. This is legacy.

People that don't get the reality that championships matter are fully exposing their own biases.

We are talking the difference between Sidney Crosby and Connor McDavid here.

The reality is McDavid has a roster that was good enough to win a cup.

The excuse for McDavid's team entering the Stanley Cup Finals was he didn't have the depth or the goaltending to win him a cup.

Skinner outplayed Bob in the series and half of the bottom six in McLeod, Foegle, and Janmark scored 3 goals, 5 points, and 4 points respectively.

It's not about "having more rings". It's about making the small difference about players at this level.

Lemieux, Gretzky, Orr, Howe. These are the names we are comparing McDavid to. Championships matter in that conversation.

As I've said today, the argument for Sid versus McDavid in terms of individual contributors is pretty much over. But as a teammate and a player you take to win you a game when everything is on the line.. Sid over McDavid every day of the week.

 

[Turin]

Let's just fully embrace the ESPN logic American fans grew up with. Rings >>> everything when assessing individual greatness.
Kunitz is obviously a vastly superior playoff player than McSpeedy, evidenced by the 4 Cups.

So is Pat Maroon, Charlie Huddy, Jeff Beaukeboom, Jiri Hrdina, Mike Krushelnyski, John Madden, Mike MacEwan, Justin Williams, Aaron Ward, etc...
All of them have 3 rings.

I'll put Connor in my top-500 all-time when I see him lifting Lord Stanley. Until then he's a plug, below Scott Wilson.

Like Gurgs just said, when comparing great players who you already recognize as great, what they did in the highest levels in order to win matters. Nobody is deciding who's great based on Cup count, but using Cup count as a variable in discussing players who are already acknowledged as being great. McDavid should get a lot of credit for his game 4 and 5 performance to will the Oilers back into the fight, but he was also playing for them when they went into such a hole to begin with, and it's not like his whole team was overmatched. It's silly to act like him not winning vs winning makes no difference for his legacy as a player at this moment.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Malkin should have two Conn Smythe's imo. He's the Penguins finals GOAT in this era.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Like Gurgs just said, when comparing great players who you already recognize as great, what they did in the highest levels in order to win matters. Nobody is deciding who's great based on Cup count, but using Cup count as a variable in discussing players who are already acknowledged as being great. McDavid should get a lot of credit for his game 4 and 5 performance to will the Oilers back into the fight, but he was also playing for them when they went into such a hole to begin with, and it's not like his whole team was overmatched. It's silly to act like him not winning vs winning makes no difference for his legacy as a player at this moment.

Of course they are. That's what the herd does in the internet era. Look at any message board. It's all over Youtube comment sections right now.
They don't have more intellectual reasoning than that. They just defer to rings.
Because McDavid's buddies couldn't score more than a goal in game 7 and Skinner let in a shit 2nd goal, it will hurt his legacy.
If Draisaitl wakes up in G7 and gets a hat-trick, with McDavid doing nothing whatsoever, history forgets that entirely and everything is roses.
It's always about end results with hockey fans, not context. That's because context requires effort, and only a small ratio of fans are willing to put that in.

You know what's really silly? Pretending he has as much control over outcomes like NBA stars do. He's not even a goalie or a horse #1 D-man. He's a Forward.
How much evidence do we need in this great duo era that 2 superstars is not enough? This was year 9 of his stay there. He's been nothing short of brilliant in the playoffs. Draisaitl even moreso.
But that only goes so far.

Crosby won in 2009 game 7 because Talbot scored 2 goals and Fleury allowed only 1.

Pointless in the last 2.5 games of the Finals btw, not that anyone here remembers such things or would be prepared to put their bias aside.
He had 3 points vs Detroit in the series. Nothing compared to McDavid's 11 points vs Florida.
But no, we're just gonna hear about McDavid "ghosting" in game 6 and 7 for eternity, because his team lost.

Crosby won game 6 vs Nashville because Hornqvist banked it off Rinne's back, a legit goal got called off and Murray got a shutout. He was pointless in that game too.
Sometimes you just need help. That's how hockey works.

 

[BusinessGoose]

Of course they are. That's what the herd does in the internet era. Look at any message board. It's all over Youtube comment sections right now.
They don't have more intellectual reasoning than that. They just defer to rings.
Because McDavid's buddies couldn't score more than a goal in game 7 and Skinner let in a shit 2nd goal, it will hurt his legacy.
If Draisaitl wakes up in G7 and gets a hat-trick, with McDavid doing nothing whatsoever, history forgets that entirely and everything is roses.
It's always about end results with hockey fans, not context. That's because context requires effort, and only a small ratio of fans are willing to put that in.

You know what's really silly? Pretending he has as much control over outcomes like NBA stars do. He's not even a goalie or a horse #1 D-man. He's a Forward.
How much evidence do we need in this great duo era that 2 superstars is not enough? This was year 9 of his stay there. He's been nothing short of brilliant in the playoffs. Draisaitl even moreso.
But that only goes so far.

Crosby won in 2009 game 7 because Talbot scored 2 goals and Fleury allowed only 1.

View attachment 887368
Pointless in the last 2.5 games of the Finals btw, not that anyone here remembers such things or would be prepared to put their bias aside.
He had 3 points vs Detroit in the series. Nothing compared to McDavid's 11 points vs Florida.
But no, we're just gonna hear about McDavid "ghosting" in game 6 and 7 for eternity, because his team lost.

Crosby won game 6 vs Nashville because Hornqvist banked it off Rinne's back, a legit goal got called off and Murray got a shutout. He was pointless in that game too.
Sometimes you just need help. That's how hockey works.

In a game of luck, like hockey, sometimes you gotta be good enough to make your own luck.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

In a game of luck, like hockey, sometimes you gotta be good enough to make your own luck.

Or be lucky enough to be surrounded by people who cover for you when you suck, at the critical times.
Crosby has not been brilliant at all in Finals, as OP said. 4 goals in 25 games. 20 points, which is good, but not special. The difference is the support level received.

But the headline and what's written in history will never care about how it was achieved. It's all gonna be about rings in the end.

 

[Don'tcry4mejanhrdina]

For comparison, Lemieux in his finals appearances finished 1st in goals both times (5 each) and for points was 1st against Minnesota (12 in 5 games, missed 1 game due to injury) and 2nd behind Tocchet (8 points) against Chicago with 7 points in 4 games.

Combined Finals statline: 9 games, 10 goals and 19 points, 2 game winning goals.

 

[BillyOcean]

Different eras. Scoring is a lot easier now. Almost 0.5 more goals a game. Sid has 3. Mcdavid has 0. McDavid could have 3000 pts in his career. All I care about is the 3.

 

[hiptanaka]

A lot of people are giving McDavid a hard time for his performance in Game 6 and Game 7.

It made me think of 2009 when people criticized Crosby for being pointless in Game 5, 6 and 7 (to be fair he was injured for half of game 7) against Detroit. I did a bit of deep diving to see how well he performed in Cup Finals. I also asked myself what if they lost in 2009, 2016 or 2017.

In 25 Finals games, he has 4 goals and 16 assists for 20 points. Half of those goals came in 2008. So in Cup Finals Crosby won, he has 2 goals and 12 assists over the span of 19 games. I'm not trying to tarnish Crosby's legacy, he's a winner and did things outside of points to help these teams win, but I think it's fair to say outside of 2017, he's had some underwhelming results offensively when it's mattered.

I also think it's fair to point out Crosby was only 21 when they won in 2009 and McDavid is currently 27 and in the prime of his career. Does this mean either player isn't clutch? Absolutely not, but it's interesting how a team can make a difference in how a guy is perceived. If Edmonton wins yesterday, nobody cares about McDavid's point totals. Imagine if the Penguins lost again in 2009 or if they lost in 2016, how would Crosby's legacy be remembered?

Crosby was playing with guys like *checks notes* Chris Kunitz, old Chris Kunitz, old Billy Guerin, and Connor Sheary.

So… yeah.

 

[JRS91]

Malkin should have two Conn Smythe's imo. He's the Penguins finals GOAT in this era.

I think he absolutely deserved it in 2009.

2016 should've been Kessel or Letang. 2017 Crosby definitely deserved it, but there were others that you could argue deserved it.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

I think he absolutely deserved it in 2009.

2016 should've been Kessel or Letang. 2017 Crosby definitely deserved it, but there were others that you could argue deserved it.

Again, in 2016 and 2017 there were no true "slam dunk" CS candidates. Every player proposed had their strengths and weaknesses.

If Kessel got it in 2016 I wouldn't have been upset. Same reason I wasn't upset that Sid won

 

[Deport Ogie]

The crux of the argument is that the way the CS is voted is kind of dumb. All votes need to be submitted by the time 10 minutes are still left in the game. A lot of crazy shit can happen in 10 minutes of game time.

I remember reading where, in 2016, the vote was very close between Crosby and Kessel so you had cases where, I think it was Bobby Mac, voted for Phil but put an addendum on that said "unless Sid does something significant." Well, Sid blocked the shot and passed to Horny for the ENG and that was deemed significant enough to change the vote.

We're in 2024 here people, is there really no mechanism to allow voters to hold off on submitting final choices until the game is over?

 

[JRS91]

Of course they are. That's what the herd does in the internet era. Look at any message board. It's all over Youtube comment sections right now.
They don't have more intellectual reasoning than that. They just defer to rings.
Because McDavid's buddies couldn't score more than a goal in game 7 and Skinner let in a shit 2nd goal, it will hurt his legacy.
If Draisaitl wakes up in G7 and gets a hat-trick, with McDavid doing nothing whatsoever, history forgets that entirely and everything is roses.
It's always about end results with hockey fans, not context. That's because context requires effort, and only a small ratio of fans are willing to put that in.

You know what's really silly? Pretending he has as much control over outcomes like NBA stars do. He's not even a goalie or a horse #1 D-man. He's a Forward.
How much evidence do we need in this great duo era that 2 superstars is not enough? This was year 9 of his stay there. He's been nothing short of brilliant in the playoffs. Draisaitl even moreso.
But that only goes so far.

Crosby won in 2009 game 7 because Talbot scored 2 goals and Fleury allowed only 1.

View attachment 887368
Pointless in the last 2.5 games of the Finals btw, not that anyone here remembers such things or would be prepared to put their bias aside.
He had 3 points vs Detroit in the series. Nothing compared to McDavid's 11 points vs Florida.
But no, we're just gonna hear about McDavid "ghosting" in game 6 and 7 for eternity, because his team lost.

Crosby won game 6 vs Nashville because Hornqvist banked it off Rinne's back, a legit goal got called off and Murray got a shutout. He was pointless in that game too.
Sometimes you just need help. That's how hockey works.

I think it's fair to point out linemates.

When Crosby was playing with a top winger, he was a point-per-game player in the two Stanley Cup finals. In 2008 he had 2 goals and 4 assists playing alongside Hossa. In 2017 he had 1 goal and 5 assists in 6 games playing alongside Guentzel.

That means in 13 games where he had average or below average wingers, he had 1 goal and 6 assists. I'm not saying McDavid had absolute studs on his line, but I do think Hyman is better than Kunitz, Guerin, Sheary or Hornqvist in their respective relative timelines.

 

[Turin]

The crux of the argument is that the way the CS is voted is kind of dumb. All votes need to be submitted by the time 10 minutes are still left in the game. A lot of crazy shit can happen in 10 minutes of game time.

I remember reading where, in 2016, the vote was very close between Crosby and Kessel so you had cases where, I think it was Bobby Mac, voted for Phil but put an addendum on that said "unless Sid does something significant." Well, Sid blocked the shot and passed to Horny for the ENG and that was deemed significant enough to change the vote.

We're in 2024 here people, is there really no mechanism to allow voters to hold off on submitting final choices until the game is over?

Yea I think I would have given it to Kessel in 2016 but I understood the logic of giving it to Crosby. Crosby was involved in the biggest plays in the final, like Shearys goal to start the series, Shearys OT goal, and the Cup winning goal. He also played a much harder position with harder matchups. Letang had a case but he was also a bit of an adventure at times after the Callahan charge. Murray had a case except he was bad at times in the final, basically the reason it wasn’t a sweep.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Yea I think I would have given it to Kessel in 2016 but I understood the logic of giving it to Crosby. Crosby was involved in the biggest plays in the final, like Shearys goal to start the series, Shearys OT goal, and the Cup winning goal. He also played a much harder position with harder matchups. Letang had a case but he was also a bit of an adventure at times after the Callahan charge. Murray had a case except he was bad at times in the final, basically the reason it wasn’t a sweep.

Murray's case was also hampered by missing the 1st couple games of the playoffs.
Coincidently, he would not appear in all the playoff games the following year either.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I think he absolutely deserved it in 2009.

2016 should've been Kessel or Letang. 2017 Crosby definitely deserved it, but there were others that you could argue deserved it.

2017 could have been either. Malkin also produced well in the finals that year. 2009 though, that one still bothered me, then again Malkin's been disrespected by the hockey media types forever.

I think it's fair to point out linemates.

When Crosby was playing with a top winger, he was a point-per-game player in the two Stanley Cup finals. In 2008 he had 2 goals and 4 assists playing alongside Hossa. In 2017 he had 1 goal and 5 assists in 6 games playing alongside Guentzel.

That means in 13 games where he had average or below average wingers, he had 1 goal and 6 assists. I'm not saying McDavid had absolute studs on his line, but I do think Hyman is better than Kunitz, Guerin, Sheary or Hornqvist in their respective relative timelines.

Crosby had his top wingers vs Boston and went full on blank the entire 4 game series. Same for Geno. But Sid also had another playoff like that where his production was awful and he had Jake this time and even Jake was trash. Sid has had 3 playoffs where he wasn't performing like the elite player he is. Malkin had 2 and in one of them he had a f***ed up knee and arm.

 

[Lara Emily]

McDavid should get a lot of credit for his game 4 and 5 performance to will the Oilers back into the fight,

Only 5

McDavid didn't get on the sheet until they were up 3-1 in game 4

 

[BusinessGoose]

Here is one way to look at it

Does EDM get to the playoffs let alone Finals WITHOUT McDavid?

 

[Tasty Biscuits]

It's always about end results with hockey fans, not context.

Agreed. And only looking at raw point totals is the definition of "end results over context."

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Agreed. And only looking at raw point totals is the definition of "end results over context."

Enjoying this new trend where the board tells me I only think about points.
I'm probably in the top-3 posters here the last 7 years when it comes to analyzing all-round metrics, but w/e.

The best part is that a lot of people who say this garbage barely even look at numbers all year. They're scared of them. Then they tell me about lazy posting and needing to analyze all angles...

So shameless...

 

[Vujtek]

20 points in 25 Stanley Cup Final games
- This is the most points by anyone outside the Oilers core since 1980's.
- Hossa is tied with 5 more games and one more trip to Finals.
- Kucherov is tied with 2 less games and same amount of trips to Finals.
- Hossa's teams scored 82 goals, Kucherov's teams 61 goals and Crosby's teams 58 goals in the Finals - so Crosby has factored into more of his teams goals compared to these two he's tied in points.

Two Stanley Cup Final series at PPG pace
- Since 1987 (current playoff format with 4 rounds of best of 7) only Gretzky, Kurri and Fedorov have more - three each
- The only players with atleast two PPG series in the Stanley Cup Finals in 2000's are Crosby and Kucherov.

Also led the Finals in points in 2017 and assisted Cup winning goal in 2016.

His legacy in the Cup Finals is just fine even without mentioning raising the Cup three times as the captain.