Crosby is now Top 5.....(MOD EDIT: career value affected by injury)

[Video Nasty]

Crosby gets so much credit for what he didn’t do in his partial seasons that it seems like a wash to me.

 

[Davenport]

To use an example of a player in the same tier as Crosby, Bobby Hull had a great playoffs in 1971 as Chicago fell just short of the Stanley Cup. I don't think that the 1971 playoffs come up very often when discussing Hull's place all time.

Of course, you can play that game with other all time greats as well, including Hull being extremely likely to win the 1965 Art Ross if not for his knee injury. Crosby getting injured after a strong start to his first round series in the 2022 playoffs is nothing in the historical sense.

The 1965 playoffs should also come up when discussing Hull's place all time. Many hockey fans see that Hull only had one ring, and - therefore - assume he must not have been much of a postseason performer.

 

[VanIslander]

Crosby is top 5?

ABSURD. Utterly.

D0 the math.

Howe, Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux.
Roy & Hasek.

I think seven more names apply, but for the sake of this thread: who the hell is less deserving than Sid the Limp Kid?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

The 1965 playoffs should also come up when discussing Hull's place all time. Many hockey fans see that Hull only had one ring, and - therefore - assume he must not have been much of a postseason performer.

62 playoff goals in 119 NHL playoff games, mostly in the original 06 era.

13th best all-time in goals per game.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Crosby is top 5?

ABSURD. Utterly.

D0 the math.

Howe, Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux.
Roy & Hasek.

I think seven more names apply, but for the sake of this thread: who the hell is less deserving than Sid the Limp Kid?

Your shtick is annoying. We get it, you don’t like Sidney Crosby. Get over it.

 

[sdf]

How would you rate his Russian daddy Pavel Datsyuk

 

[Beau Knows]

How would you rate his Russian daddy Pavel Datsyuk

I believe this boards vote put him at 128th all-time, so he's right up there lol

 

[Midnight Judges]

Eh, I'd probably rank Crosby 6th all time, after Ovechkin.

The ranking depends on where you put goalies in the mix - which is even more subjective and difficult than comparing players across eras and positions. The ranking also depends on how much value is placed on peak vs longevity - which are two distinct, contradictory, and valid ways of looking at things.

Crosby is an all-time great. It cannot be denied. His total career value is quite high, and as with Ovechkin, it continues to improve even with these late career seasons. Some people disregard these mid 30s seasons as not particularly impactful. I simply don't agree. Ovie was a top 10 player in 2022, at age 36. At age 34 in 2022, Crosby was arguably in the top 30. They were both significant contributors to their teams. It would be illogical for that to not count for something. Ovechkin would have been the best player on most teams, Crosby a top 2 player on most teams. It's a big contribution.

With Ovie being 20th all time in points and 3rd all time in goals, despite playing in a low scoring era, it's hard to deny the all time status. He's 9th in adjusted points, 2nd in adjusted goals.

Same goes for Sid, who is 22nd and 39th respectively. He's 11th in adjusted points, 26th in adjusted goals.

They are simply both generational players living up to or exceeding any reasonable hype, and will rightfully take their places among the all-time greats.

 

[rmartin65]

Ovie was a top 10 player in 2022, at age 36.

While I agree with much of your post, particularly that pertaining to post-30 seasons bringing value to both Ovechkin's and Crosby's resumes, this is blatantly untrue.

He is an offense-only (really, goal-only) forward who got over 80% start time in the offensive zone. He is still a top ten goal scorer in the league, but I don't think he approached the top 10 for overall players.

EDIT: Ah, I see he finished tenth in Hart voting this year with 2 fourth place votes and 4 fifth place votes. While I personally disagree with that, I guess I retract my "blatantly untrue" statement.

 

[bobholly39]

That's all very true for the most part, though I do think that the missed time in 2011 leaves a bit of mystery. Crosby missed an easy Art Ross and Hart in 2013, but we had seen him at that level before and only people who are desperate to pump up Ovechkin or slavishly devoted to trophies will care that he missed 10 or 12 games that year. 2011 was the best that Crosby ever looked, and while 40 games or so that season satisfies me (given the rest of his career establishes that he was a consistently elite player) it would have been nice to have seen whether he would maintain it, drop off, or even improve his level of play.

The trophies shouldn't matter to people who were there to actually watch the player, but he is probably the best player ever whose peak is still partially a question mark.

Mario Lemieux.

He had a great season in 1989 and seemed like he could match/surpass Gretzky's records...and then averaged ~50 games a year for the next 4, and was probably never even close to 100% in the games he did play. He was spectacular in his 2 smythe runs, and in the 1993 season - but he wasn't 100% and never had full seasons in that stretch.

Orr is interesting too. We saw his peak and it was spectacular. But he did retire at age 26. All of Shore, Bourque, Lidstrom, Harvey (who round out top 5 defensemen all-time in some order) all peaked after age 26. Whose to say Orr may not have had yet another level to reach past age 26 too?

 

[JackSlater]

Mario Lemieux.

He had a great season in 1989 and seemed like he could match/surpass Gretzky's records...and then averaged ~50 games a year for the next 4, and was probably never even close to 100% in the games he did play. He was spectacular in his 2 smythe runs, and in the 1993 season - but he wasn't 100% and never had full seasons in that stretch.

Orr is interesting too. We saw his peak and it was spectacular. But he did retire at age 26. All of Shore, Bourque, Lidstrom, Harvey (who round out top 5 defensemen all-time in some order) all peaked after age 26. Whose to say Orr may not have had yet another level to reach past age 26 too?

I get where you're coming from with Lemieux but between the 1989 season, the two Stanley Cup runs, and the 1993 season I suspect that we can basically surmise Lemieux's peak. I've never seen a person question Lemieux on his peak. Crosby gets questioned on his fairly often as he doesn't really have a full standout season in the all time sense.

Orr has a season often cited as the greatest of all time. He may have gotten better with age as many defencemen do, but I don't know that someone can be that much better than the peak Orr that we did see.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

While I agree with much of your post, particularly that pertaining to post-30 seasons bringing value to both Ovechkin's and Crosby's resumes, this is blatantly untrue.

He is an offense-only (really, goal-only) forward who got over 80% start time in the offensive zone. He is still a top ten goal scorer in the league, but I don't think he approached the top 10 for overall players.

EDIT: Ah, I see he finished tenth in Hart voting this year with 2 fourth place votes and 4 fifth place votes. While I personally disagree with that, I guess I retract my "blatantly untrue" statement.

No need for a retraction.

Ovechkin getting reputation votes doesn't change the fact that he wasn't close to being one of the top 10 players in the league.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Eh, I'd probably rank Crosby 6th all time, after Ovechkin.

The ranking depends on where you put goalies in the mix - which is even more subjective and difficult than comparing players across eras and positions. The ranking also depends on how much value is placed on peak vs longevity - which are two distinct, contradictory, and valid ways of looking at things.

Crosby is an all-time great. It cannot be denied. His total career value is quite high, and as with Ovechkin, it continues to improve even with these late career seasons. Some people disregard these mid 30s seasons as not particularly impactful. I simply don't agree. Ovie was a top 10 player in 2022, at age 36. At age 34 in 2022, Crosby was arguably in the top 30. They were both significant contributors to their teams. It would be illogical for that to not count for something. Ovechkin would have been the best player on most teams, Crosby a top 2 player on most teams. It's a big contribution.

With Ovie being 20th all time in points and 3rd all time in goals, despite playing in a low scoring era, it's hard to deny the all time status. He's 9th in adjusted points, 2nd in adjusted goals.

Same goes for Sid, who is 22nd and 39th respectively. He's 11th in adjusted points, 26th in adjusted goals.

They are simply both generational players living up to or exceeding any reasonable hype, and will rightfully take their places among the all-time greats.

For all the points you've made, I still don't understand how you would conclude Ovie and Crosby should be ranked 5th and 6th respectively.

 

[Randyne]

Sid was lucky to have Malkin on his team, this brought him 3 cups, several awards, +20% points.
Ovechkin's bad luck is much bigger. Minus about 100 goals (almost all-time goalscoring record); minus 2 Art Rosses and 1 Hart.

PIT P% without Sid = .634; with Sid = .618
WSH P% without Ovi = .532; with Ovi = .618

A top 5 player all-time cannot be a player which makes his team worse.

 

[Midnight Judges]

No need for a retraction.

Ovechkin getting reputation votes doesn't change the fact that he wasn't close to being one of the top 10 players in the league.

Eh, I've come to expect nothing less in the history revision forum.

Here in real life, Ovechkin had an excellent season and was leading the MVP race at the half way mark of the season:

Half-Season Awards: Hart Memorial

Well I did. And it’s nowhere near the same story. Yes I included the massive amount of PP time in part of the post because that’s where the bulk of Draisaitl’s scoring comes from. I also showed the 5v5 view which is ugly for Draisaitl (but flattering for McDavid) You're obviously quite biased...

hfboards.mandatory.com

 

[jigglysquishy]

Eh, I've come to expect nothing less in the history revision forum.

Here in real life, Ovechkin had an excellent season and was leading the MVP race at the half way mark of the season:

Half-Season Awards: Hart Memorial

Well I did. And it’s nowhere near the same story. Yes I included the massive amount of PP time in part of the post because that’s where the bulk of Draisaitl’s scoring comes from. I also showed the 5v5 view which is ugly for Draisaitl (but flattering for McDavid) You're obviously quite biased...

hfboards.mandatory.com

He had a tremendous first half, but fell off a cliff in the second half. From the date the poll was posted (January 22nd) Ovechkin was
80th in points
20th in goals
58th in PPG

So it's a case where in the first half he was arguably the #1 Hart candidate, and in the back half was arguably not in the top 50. So does that average out to a top 10 player? Maybe? But playing the last 35 games at a level like that isn't doing him any favours, especially as most of the stars in the NHL picked up their base in the back half.

 

[PrimumHockeyist]

For me, Sidney Crosby is the player whose level of game is the most difficult to grasp with points, common statistical measures and analytics.

From the time I started watching him in junior, he exuded those best hockey traits that defy quantification. He showed them from his first shift and ever since - the relentless work ethic, alertness and hunger. This side of his game is always so evident. I can't think of any time that he took his foot off the gas when healthy. Crosby personifies the point that number crunching can never tell the whole story of a player's overall game. His game is a stark reminder of that approach's limitations.

For those qualities, along with his stats - especially when individual numbers are tempered in era-adjusted ways (and never mind injury adjusting) - , for his Stanely Cups, his Olympic Golds and best on best world championships I would say that Crosby has already earned his way into the rarified group that is widely seen to include just Howe, Orr, Gretzky and Lemiuex.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Eh, I've come to expect nothing less in the history revision forum.

Here in real life, Ovechkin had an excellent season and was leading the MVP race at the half way mark of the season:

Half-Season Awards: Hart Memorial

Well I did. And it’s nowhere near the same story. Yes I included the massive amount of PP time in part of the post because that’s where the bulk of Draisaitl’s scoring comes from. I also showed the 5v5 view which is ugly for Draisaitl (but flattering for McDavid) You're obviously quite biased...

hfboards.mandatory.com

Ovie was 4th in goals scored. tied for 70th in assists. 16th in points. Only 179 players with a better plus/minus than his +8. 32 takeaways to 50 giveaways. Doesn't kill penalties, often plays all 2minutes on the power play.

Had an excellent season. Not a top 10 player.

 

[PrimumHockeyist]

While I agree with much of your post, particularly that pertaining to post-30 seasons bringing value to both Ovechkin's and Crosby's resumes, this is blatantly untrue.

He is an offense-only (really, goal-only) forward who got over 80% start time in the offensive zone. He is still a top ten goal scorer in the league, but I don't think he approached the top 10 for overall players.

EDIT: Ah, I see he finished tenth in Hart voting this year with 2 fourth place votes and 4 fifth place votes. While I personally disagree with that, I guess I retract my "blatantly untrue" statement.

Ovechkin, arguably the greatest shooter of all time, has a fabulous 60 foot game

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

PIT P% without Sid = .634; with Sid = .618
WSH P% without Ovi = .532; with Ovi = .618

A top 5 player all-time cannot be a player which makes his team worse.

What happens to the p% if you remove Crosby’s rookie season on a piss poor .354 team?

 

[nowhereman]

Sid was lucky to have Malkin on his team, this brought him 3 cups, several awards, +20% points.
Ovechkin's bad luck is much bigger. Minus about 100 goals (almost all-time goalscoring record); minus 2 Art Rosses and 1 Hart.

PIT P% without Sid = .634; with Sid = .618
WSH P% without Ovi = .532; with Ovi = .618

A top 5 player all-time cannot be a player which makes his team worse.

Wow.

And, to think, you actually clicked "Post Reply" on this. That's a lot of bullshit packed into one post.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Anything past 5th in hart voting is not worth anything imo. Ovechkin got 10th place with like 4 votes out of 175 writers 4th and 5th place votes at that. Adds nothing. There were many better players this season

 

[Midnight Judges]

What happens to the p% if you remove Crosby’s rookie season on a piss poor .354 team?

Indeed, playing the "what if" game exclusively for Crosby improves his comparisons to other players. Who'd have thunk it?

Anything past 5th in hart voting is not worth anything imo. Ovechkin got 10th place with like 4 votes out of 175 writers 4th and 5th place votes at that. Adds nothing. There were many better players this season

How many votes did Sid get this year?

Oh yeah. None.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

Indeed, playing the "what if" game exclusively for Crosby improves his comparisons to other players. Who'd have thunk it?

Midnight Judges never moved the goal posts to prop up OV?

 

[Midnight Judges]

Midnight Judges never moved the goal posts to prop up OV?

No, I definitely haven't.

You just invented bs to excuse your own admitted bs. You didn't even move the goal posts BTW, you merely created a double standard wherein you would remove Crosby's worst team season but not do the same for Ovie.

It's interesting, cause if I thought someone else was full of it, I'd go out of my way to NOT be like them, as opposed to whatever it is you think you are doing here.