Crosby Era vs McDavid Era: Better Defensemen and Goalies

[filinski77]

Crosby era better goalies, McDavid era better defensemen

The current crop of defensemen is really epic. I think that Crosby era was sort of in-between; after the best defensemen had retired or were past their primes, and before the next set of fantastic defensemen. Who were the best defensemen, Keith, Doughty? Nothing that amazing if you ask me. Karlsson? You could argue that Quinn Hughes and Cale Makar are just improvements over his archetype.

Sorta surprised Crosby's era is leading in this regard.

I think the overall skill of defensemen might be slightly higher, but that skill seems to come exclusively in the form of skating and offense.

10-15 years ago, the league was more defense-oriented, and bigger sized defense-oriented D were better at actually defending their own zone.

 

[blundluntman]

Defensive structure in general was stronger during Crosby's era, it seems like more of a top down situation here where goalies and defensemen tended to have a greater impact on the game. I will say, I do feel like the best dmen in Crosby's era were better defensively than this era, but idk if that's because of the emphasis on offense nowadays or a talent/skill thing. As for goalies, I honestly don't know but I lean towards Crosby's era as well. We've seen how Luongo, Lundqvist, Price, Quick, Thomas, Miller, etc.'s careers played out. Outside of Helebucyk and Vasilevsky, the top end goalies today aren't really as cemented since there's so much variance on a season-to-season basis.

 

[Offtheboard412]

Crosby era better goalies, McDavid era better defensemen

The current crop of defensemen is really epic. I think that Crosby era was sort of in-between; after the best defensemen had retired or were past their primes, and before the next set of fantastic defensemen. Who were the best defensemen, Keith, Doughty? Nothing that amazing if you ask me. Karlsson? You could argue that Quinn Hughes and Cale Makar are just improvements over his archetype.

Sorta surprised Crosby's era is leading in this regard.

What has Quinn Hughes done that proves he's an improvement over Karlsson? He's having a fantastic season but let's pump the brakes on that one. Sure, Makar is the real deal and as long as he can stay on the ice will go down as one of the top 5 d-man of all time imo. But Keith, Doughty, Chara, Pietrangelo, Hedman (does he count for Crosby or McDavid? Feel like he's right in the middle) all helped lead their teams to one or more cups playing big minutes in all situations. I think it was a very strong era for defenders, the league just prioritized a different skill set than what we see today.

 

[ijuka]

I think the overall skill of defensemen might be slightly higher, but that skill seems to come exclusively in the form of skating and offense.

10-15 years ago, the league was more defense-oriented, and bigger sized defense-oriented D were better at actually defending their own zone.

The poll was about defensemen, not about defensive defensemen.

 

[wetcoast]

When comparing both eras, which one proved to have the superior dmen and goalies?

Interesting but a loaded question for some as some will look at the players and ignore any data presented.

It may be, or maybe not, more helpful to discuss 2 different sets of defined time periods?

Does it really matter?

All skaters from each era went up against the same defensemen and shot against the same goalies.

It's not like Crosby was shooting on Brodeur and Lundqvist exclusively while Datsyuk was only shooting on Toskala and Reimer or McDavid was always facing off against Makar and Hedman while Barkov was always going up against Luke Schenn and Bogosian.

It probably matters less than some people will try to push but also more than some other people who will totally ignore it.

Context does matter but it's also hard to measure right?

 

[nowhereman]

The poll was about defensemen, not about defensive defensemen.

The first responsibility of a defenseman is to defend. Today's defenders put up massive totals but so does everyone else in this league, as scoring is currently at early-90s levels of offense. Just look at a 33 year old Karlsson who just blew his prime-level totals out of the water. On the other hand, guys like Lidstrom, Pronger, Chara, Weber and Keith were elite in every area of the game.

 

[Aladyyn]

The first responsibility of a defenseman is to defend. Today's defenders put up massive totals but so does everyone else in this league, as scoring is currently at early-90s levels of offense. Just look at a 33 year old Karlsson who just blew his prime-level totals out of the water. On the other hand, guys like Lidstrom, Pronger, Chara, Weber and Keith were elite in every area of the game.

This is seriously looking at the past with rose colored glasses. Makar is easily more rounded than all of these guys for example

 

[The Grim Reaper]

This is seriously looking at the past with rose colored glasses. Makar is easily more rounded than all of these guys for example

I'm taking peak Lidstrom and Pronger over Makar 10/10.

 

[Aladyyn]

I'm taking peak Lidstrom and Pronger over Makar 10/10.

That's your right and also not the point I was making.

 

[nowhereman]

This is seriously looking at the past with rose colored glasses. Makar is easily more rounded than all of these guys for example

Well, first of all, that's one guy who just so happens to be a top 3 player in the league and doesn't represent the field. And, secondly, that's simply not true. Makar is not "easily" more well-rounded than Nicklas Lidstrom... come on. He doesn't play shutdown hockey as well as any of those guys I listed.

 

[authentic]

Well, first of all, that's one guy who just so happens to be a top 3 player in the league and doesn't represent the field. And, secondly, that's simply not true. Makar is not "easily" more well-rounded than Nicklas Lidstrom... come on. He doesn't play shutdown hockey as well as any of those guys I listed.

He plays it pretty darn well, especially for someone with his offensive capability. I actually agree, all around offensive and defensive skill set + IQ Makar is the closest thing we’ve seen to Bobby Orr

 

[Aladyyn]

Well, first of all, that's one guy who just so happens to be a top 3 player in the league and doesn't represent the field. And, secondly, that's simply not true. Makar is not "easily" more well-rounded than Nicklas Lidstrom... come on. He doesn't play shutdown hockey as well as any of those guys I listed.

Makar is a lot better at defending than guys like Weber and Chára were at moving the puck up the ice, just as an obvious example

 

[nowhereman]

He plays it pretty darn well, especially for someone with his offensive capability. I actually agree, all around offensive and defensive skill set + IQ Makar is the closest thing we’ve seen to Bobby Orr

We've seen Potvin, Bourque, and Lidstrom over the decades, so I wouldn't say Makar is the closest thing to Orr.

Makar is a lot better at defending than guys like Weber and Chára were at moving the puck up the ice, just as an obvious example

Again, Makar is one example and doesn't represent the field. He's an outlier and the best defender of his generation.

But, overall, the defenders of the late 00s/early 10s were better all-around defenders, IMO. Would you take Hughes over Pronger? Fox over Keith? Josi over Chara? 33 year old Karlsson over 26 year old Karlsson? McAvoy over Doughty? Heiskanen over Weber?

Personally, I prefer a more defensive, physical brand of hockey from my defenders, where strong offense is an added bonus — not the other way around. I wouldn't call that "rose colored glasses".

 

[Machinehead]

I'm taking peak Lidstrom and Pronger over Makar 10/10.

Peak Lidstrom and Pronger aren't options in the poll.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Peak Lidstrom and Pronger aren't options in the poll.

I wasn't addressing the poll, but you knew that.

 

[Machinehead]

I wasn't addressing the poll, but you knew that.

Ok, then thanks for offering the very relevant information that you would take Pronger in the 90's and Lidstrom in the 00's in a poll mostly about the 2010's.

 

[nowhereman]

Peak Lidstrom and Pronger aren't options in the poll.

It's not a poll with player options or timelines listed, so all we have to go on is personal opinion.

But Pronger lead 3 different teams to 3 Stanley Cup Finals in 5 years, while Crosby was winning major hardware and a Cup. His prime was very much a part of the "Crosby-era", even if his peak season was in 99-00 (which is entirely debatable). And Lidstrom won four Norris trophies during that time, as well. Both players were very close to their best.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Ok, then thanks for offering the very relevant information that you would take Pronger in the 90's and Lidstrom in the 00's in a poll mostly about the 2010's.

You're welcome. Not sure how a mod has never observed a side conversation in a poll thread that isn't necessarily directly related to the poll; it happens in almost every poll.

 

[Machinehead]

It's not a poll with player options or timelines listed, so all we have to go on is personal opinion.

But Pronger lead 3 different teams to 3 Stanley Cup Finals in 5 years, while Crosby was winning major hardware and a Cup. His prime was very much a part of the "Crosby-era", even if his peak season was in 99-00 (which is entirely debatable). And Lidstrom won four Norris trophies during that time, as well. Both players were very close to their best.

If we're going to extend the "Crosby era" to immediately when he joined the league, and I think that's fair enough, we have to factor in that Lidstrom's three Norris wins during those years were against really weak competition. That includes Pronger who only came in the top 5 once.

 

[Albatros]

Pronger might have been many things, but weak competition he wasn't.

 

[Machinehead]

Pronger might have been many things, but weak competition he wasn't.

He objectively wasn't a strong Norris contender during Crosby's career.

It's very dubious to suggest that peak Pronger and peak Lidstrom existed during Crosby's career.

Lidstrom's peak is when he won three Norris trophies with Chelios, MacInnis, Leetch, Stevens, Bourque, Blake, Niedermeyer, and yes, peak Pronger all in the league.

Again, no disrespect to Lidstrom, but he won his last four Norris trophies kind of in between eras where he was the last Hall of Fame defenseman still playing at a high level. That goes for Pronger as well. Neither of them were anywhere near their peaks with Crosby in the league.

That full, like, half of Crosby's prime where Lidstrom in his 40's and Pronger in his mid-30's were arguably your two best defensemen (and then Chara and basically nobody else) is all the more reason that the defense scene was better during McDavid's career.