Crosby defensively?

[plusandminus]

(Sorry if English is lacking, it's not my native language.)
When I watch games with Penguins, or watch highligts, I often notice that Crosby have a tendency to be far up in the offensive zone, when Penguins lose the puck. It seems to me that many GA have occured that way. He might make a pass that ends up in a breakway. Or he may be positioned behind the opponents goal (or goalline) when counterattacks occur.
Now during the WC, it also seems that Canada gives up more chances against when he is on the ice.

Have you noticied similar things? What do you think?

Crosby is a favorite player of mine. He's excellent with the puck and in the offensive zone. Extremely smart, creative and skilled. So he no doubt is a great player even att age 37. But... has his defence weakened or something?

(Also, if you want... Penguins allowed a lot of GA during the regular season. Why? Goalie? Defencemen? Karlsson? Letang?)

 

[HandshakeLine]

He’s got a reputation as a 200ft player but that is largely based on his peak and hasn’t been true for a while now.

 

[HandshakeLine]

And we let a lot of goals in because we are an old bad team coached by morons.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Crosby is a generally responsible player. His actual defensive abilities/awareness have been a bit overrated for... well... ever?

He was better when younger but so were we all, right?

I will put at least some of it on chosen line construction for years and playing in something of a predictable and stale system. Crosby is the very definition of self-motivated but even he is going to get complacent when you literally just do the same thing and have the same expectations year in and year out.

 

[plusandminus]

And we let a lot of goals in because we are an old bad team coached by morons.

Yeah, I get flashbacks to NY Rangers with Gretzky, Messier et al. I think Gretzky too did the things I describe in the OP. I don't follow Penguins very closely but logic says Crosby, Malkin, Letang (and Karlsson) will decline more and more for each season, rather than bring home another Stanley Cup...

...And as I am writing, Denmark have multiple chances when Crosby is on ice.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Yeah, I get flashbacks to NY Rangers with Gretzky, Messier et al. I think Gretzky too did the things I describe in the OP. I don't follow Penguins very closely but logic says Crosby, Malkin, Letang (and Karlsson) will decline more and more for each season, rather than bring home another Stanley Cup...

...And as I am writing, Denmark have multiple chances when Crosby is on ice.

My dude... two out of those three are very much already "declined." The only cup this team is bringing home are in their hockey bags.

It's honestly extremely impressive that Crosby is still a PPG player at his age with this roster.

 

[Pancakes]

I don't think he was ever that good defensively even when he was younger. I don't recall him ever being outright bad though. Just kinda average at it but obviously that comes along with the generationally good offensive ability so.

What's funny is people shit talk Geno for some of his defensive miscues but I thought that Geno (when motivated to do it) was a tremendous defensive player. His defensive play in game 7 against Detroit in 09 is still some of the finest work I've seen a Penguin forward do. He was backchecking like a demon and winning lots of battles and doing lots of stick lifts.

Geno even had a reputation as a strong defensive player in Russia before coming over here iirc. I sometimes wonder if the Pens reliance on him for offense hurt that part of his game. Maybe on a more balanced team he could have been Datsyukian. But on the Pens him and Sid always focused on offense and justifiably so given the general lack of offensive depth the Shero teams had. Those teams were built to have Sid and Geno pop off and carry.

 

[Jacob]

Crosby’s defense has always been what I’d call timely. He takes risks, makes mistakes, but knows when to clamp it down. Overall he’s fine.

 

[Peat]

I am not sure that Crosby has changed. I think he has always taken a few risks in terms of his position because that's what you want a player with his skill to do - get the puck on his stick so he can change the game in a way few others can. That involves taking the occasional gamble on not being in the best defensive position in the hope it means he's in the best offensive position. Pretty much every high skill player does it.

However, those risks will be intensified if

a) You are going against the opposition's best who are more likely to punish mistakes (which has been a thing with Sid for a long time)
b) You are playing with a losing scoreline so you are doing it more often and taking bigger risks because you need a goal (Penguins had the 5th highest time spent in that scenario last year - five years ago, they were top ten for most time spent with a winning scoreline)
c) You are playing with players who are less able in terms of solving your mistakes. His supporting cast has definitely got weaker.

So my guess is he's roughly the same player, just in a worse situation.

edit: And given what I've just seen of the Canada - Denmark game, maybe the problem there ain't Sid...

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Also... just to be clear... I'm 100% more than fine with Crosby being essentially "just passable" on defense.

Too far past that isn't really his job anyway IMO. I want players like Crosby to take risks.

 

[plaidchuck]

I mean he was never even a Selke finalist right? This seems an odd thing to put on a player at his age compared to the accomplishments. He still is miles away from the lazy cherry picking Ive seen from Ovechkin, Stamkos, and Gretzky as they aged respectively.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

The vast majority of the time... well... OK... always (at least for me) it's insanely dull and honestly kinda like watching someone slowly strangle all of the beauty and excitement out of the game whenever I try to appreciate a "defensive specialist" out there plying their heart-pounding trade. Which mostly consists of "get in the way and don't try anything with the puck."

Awesome. Too bad Crosby doesn't do more of THAT.

 

[Turin]

Crosby was very good defensively from 2018-2023. Was never anything special before that, just knew when to play more conservative when he had to. Has not really been trying to be good defensively since a couple years ago.

 

[The Old Master]

(Sorry if English is lacking, it's not my native language.)
When I watch games with Penguins, or watch highligts, I often notice that Crosby have a tendency to be far up in the offensive zone, when Penguins lose the puck. It seems to me that many GA have occured that way. He might make a pass that ends up in a breakway. Or he may be positioned behind the opponents goal (or goalline) when counterattacks occur.
Now during the WC, it also seems that Canada gives up more chances against when he is on the ice.

Have you noticied similar things? What do you think?

Crosby is a favorite player of mine. He's excellent with the puck and in the offensive zone. Extremely smart, creative and skilled. So he no doubt is a great player even att age 37. But... has his defence weakened or something?

(Also, if you want... Penguins allowed a lot of GA during the regular season. Why? Goalie? Defencemen? Karlsson? Letang?)

mostly it's the defensive system the coach puts in. to oversimplify it;
1 when the coach wants the center to help out the defensemen. the center stays high.
2 if the coach wants his center battling down low, he has a winger stay high.
3. the pens system under sully was one defenseman stayed high, and the others just gave moral support.

 

[Peat]

I mean he was never even a Selke finalist right? This seems an odd thing to put on a player at his age compared to the accomplishments. He still is miles away from the lazy cherry picking Ive seen from Ovechkin, Stamkos, and Gretzky as they aged respectively.

Highest finish was 4th in 2019 after being top 10 the three years before. Pretty tough for him to get to the final 3 when he doesn't PK regularly and it's pretty obvious why he doesn't PK regularly.



Tbh, I think there's a slight overcorrection on how good Sid is defensively. Yeah, his style of play isn't as responsible as Bergeron, but his actual defensive abilities are pretty darn good and when he knuckles down and focuses on that he's a hard dude to play against. I mean, of course he is. Pretty much every trait useful for attacking hockey - skating, body strength, hand eye co-ordination, reading the game - is useful for defensive hockey. It's about having the willingness and discipline to put them to work and avoid too many risks. Well, we all know Sid grinds and is mostly smart about the risks he takes, even if being smart about the risks he takes still equals a few too many to be an amazing defensive player.

By the Selke votes, he'll probably go down as one of the better defensive players of his generation and that seems legit to me. What he gained there for name recognition, he lost due to his offensive role.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I mean... I think @Jacob said it best - he's more than fine when he knows he has to be. Like Mario before him and Malkin when he could still skate worth a shit and isn't seeing red.

There's nothing at all wrong with that approach. Like I said I don't want my massively skilled franchise centers going out there and and playing like their sticks might as well be flipped over.

 

[cygnus47]

(Sorry if English is lacking, it's not my native language.)
When I watch games with Penguins, or watch highligts, I often notice that Crosby have a tendency to be far up in the offensive zone, when Penguins lose the puck. It seems to me that many GA have occured that way. He might make a pass that ends up in a breakway. Or he may be positioned behind the opponents goal (or goalline) when counterattacks occur.
Now during the WC, it also seems that Canada gives up more chances against when he is on the ice.

Have you noticied similar things? What do you think?

Crosby is a favorite player of mine. He's excellent with the puck and in the offensive zone. Extremely smart, creative and skilled. So he no doubt is a great player even att age 37. But... has his defence weakened or something?

(Also, if you want... Penguins allowed a lot of GA during the regular season. Why? Goalie? Defencemen? Karlsson? Letang?)

What you're describing isn't defense, it's making bad decisions offensively. Part of it is forcing it, the other thing is our team is bad.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

Crosby was better defensively when he was younger - particularly in 2018-19 - but he's old now. He's willing to backcheck, but he's too old to do it consistently.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Crosby was great defensively at times, especially '18-'19 which was his best defensive year by a lot.
His recent "most complete 200 foot player, most complete player" awards voted on by his fellow players are honorific titles that are not to be taken seriously. It's like how NBA players would vote Kobe as one of the best players in the league up until he retired (when he was pretty bad). It's kinda copium for how far behind he is versus the league's top offensive players.

Still, he is decent defensively and very good when he tries.

His line often plays a low-to-high game where he tries to set his teammates up for shots in the slot. If it goes awry, it results in an odd-man break against. Crosby has a knack of changing in these situations - which in fairness, he should - and shouldering Malkin with the minus on the direct break or the subsequent pressure lol.

He is still easily the best player on this (bad) team, so that means something.

 

[plaidchuck]

No he lost in a meaningless IIHF tournament which is a beer league for pros knocked out of the playoffs, clearly his legacy is tarnished. Checkmate, Giroux!

 

[BusinessGoose]

He likes playing down low behind the goal

His teammates suck

When they inevitably turn it over, he's left behind

That is what happens

BUT... Where i agree a bit, is he coasts back a lot more... Many goals against highlights and he's lazily skating in the slot two steps behind his coverage

 

[KrisLetAngry]

He likes playing down low behind the goal

His teammates suck

When they inevitably turn it over, he's left behind

That is what happens

BUT... Where i agree a bit, is he coasts back a lot more... Many goals against highlights and he's lazily skating in the slot two steps behind his coverage

I can't disagree with this. I think that's age.

A few years ago you'd see him hustle. Definitely some conservation of resources.


I have 0 problems with him getting votes to be in the top 10 for a few years. Being 4th was probably higher than he needed but I think the voters wanted to give him a nod for putting in the work to play both sides.

I actually see Barkov at times similar to Crosby when his defense is elite. It is elite but it's more the fact he plays both sides so well.

Selke tends to go to a player who is great at two way play.

J Staal maybe should have won another one and a few players who have not won perhaps should as defensive specialists but that's not how the award is awarded.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Staal never won a Selke.

Which is kinda funny to me.

 

[Saku11]

During his two Smythe runs especially i thought he looked Selke caliber

 

[3074326]

He’s fine on defense. Not perfect. It’s overblown both ways. Just depends on if you love or hate him. His defense is neither good enough nor bad enough for the amount of discussion it generates.

He has shown that he’s as capable in the defensive zone as he wants to be (in previous seasons), but tbh I want him scoring more than anything. You don’t buy a Ferrari to go 10 under the speed limit.